John Edward Sets Off The Baloney Detector

[CFLarsen]

I think Thanz meant that a request for a test from a US based research lab may carry more weight than a request from an unknown foreigner with no stated research credentials.

Dumb Dane....

Not at all. Thanz did not mention the lack of my academic credentials. He only referred to me as a Dane.

I take offense at the term "foreigner". "Unknown", perhaps. "Foreigner" does not detract from my abilities.

What academic degree qualifies me to do paranormal research?

 

[CFLarsen]

You have misinterpreted what I have written. I called myself just some guy from Canada in the same post. Really, I just meant that JE is not going to know you from Adam and without some other qualification or association, like a PhD or backing of a University, I can understand why he would not respond to your requests to test him. Just as I would understand if he ignored me.

Really? Since we don't know what qualifies someone to do paranormal research, I really don't see that as a hindrance.

To put it in the strongest possible terms, I do not think that there is anything about Danes that would disqualify them from doing this kind of research, and I apologize if you took offense. None was intended. I do not know what "untermenschen" are, but I will take your word for it that Danes are not it.

Apology accepted.

In any event, the only possible relevance of Denmark in this question is travel. It would be harder, I imagine, for JE to fit a trip to Denmark into his schedule than to an American institution of higher learning. If nothing else, it gives him an easier excuse.

Not at all. I travel to the US from time to time. I'm sure that JE goes somewhere at times, too. Cars, trains, and planes have been invented.

 

[Thanz]

Which neo has summarily dismissed. And since neo has a very...shall we say, "plastic" memory, we can't even rely on that.

We can't use O'Neill's account? Then we have nothing.

I think that we can use it, for what it is worth. We just can't accept it as gospel without some critical evaluation of it, that's all.

Then, he shouldn't pose as something he is not.

I simply meant a newbie to this forum. Although jim registered in 2001, he has only 17 posts, and the tone of his post led me to think that he has not been following this.

I have over 1200 posts, and while I would not consider myself an old timer in this debate, I have certainly seen a lot of debate about O'Neill on this board. That's all I was saying.

Sheesh.

 

[renata]

Not at all. Thanz did not mention the lack of my academic credentials. He only referred to me as a Dane.

I take offense at the term "foreigner". "Unknown", perhaps. "Foreigner" does not detract from my abilities.

What academic degree qualifies me to do paranormal research?

And Thanz mentioned himself in the same post, as someone from Canada!

Let me explain it to you this way- if I get a call about an investment opportunity, would I listen more to a professor at Harvard school of business or to a Claus Larsen from Denmark?

You may be emminently more qualified, but as people in the US are unaware of types of research done outside US, and qualification bestowed outside US, it would be more difficult to evaluate a request from outside the US. (I am not saying that is why JE has not answered, though)

Consider that our ego-centrism. If I asked an American to name 50 US universties, they could (University of Alabama,....University of Wyoming). If I asked them to name 50 universities outside US, they could not! Oxford, Cambridge, Sorbonne... that would probably be it.

I honestly think you are seeing offense where there was none.


Now... A Cranky Dane, Apologetic Canadian and Silly Russki walk into a 22 page JE thread....

 

[Thanz]

Really? Since we don't know what qualifies someone to do paranormal research, I really don't see that as a hindrance.

It doesn't matter what, objectively, a paranormal researcher needs to have. I don't know if JE would even be qualified to tell you. What matters is how a reasonable person would react to a request for testing. And a reasonable person, in my opinion, would view a request from someone with a PhD in psychology, parapsycology or perhaps physics and a connection with a respected University differently than a request from some guy who is just interested in the matter. I do not blame him for not responding to requests from people in the "some guy" category. I would be critical of refusing tests from the other type of people I mentioned.

Apology accepted.

Thank you. Thank you for pointing out your offense rather than stewing silently - I don't like to be thought of as rascist.

Not at all. I travel to the US from time to time. I'm sure that JE goes somewhere at times, too. Cars, trains, and planes have been invented.

I didn't say it was a GOOD excuse. I am just saying that it is easier for him to say that he is too busy if in order to do the tests he has to take out a couple of days just to travel, rather than working them in on a seminar tour or something.

 

[CFLarsen]

Clancie,

Thank you for that eloquent analysis. You have one more analysis in the works, which we are most anxious to learn about. But, in the absence of that, would you care to answer the questions put to you?

What if a reading is longer than 22 minutes? It can be, according to both Steve and neo.

You're not going to admit that the show is edited for content, are you?

 

[Clancie]

Also, Claus, when you said you wanted to test Brian, you said you wouldn't go to him, that he would have to pay his own expenses to New York, etc.

I don't see why anyone would want to incur the expense of going to Denmark just to be tested by someone with no university credentials in this field and no published work in peer reviewed journals. If JE's going to be taking "scientific tests" they'd better be as respected within the scientific community as possible. I'm sure the time and expense and inconvenience wouldn't make participating in tests thought up by any guy from Canada, or Denmark or Cleveland Ohio worth pursuing just as a "fun hobby".

Whatever JE would do, it should have as much respect within the scientific community as possible, from the outset. That's even beyond just having a Ph.D, imo, and means someone who actually has a track record of peer reviewed scientific research in this field. There's no reason to bother with anyone else, if JE really wants to demonstrate scientifically that his abilities exist.

 

[jim_scotti]

Apology accepted.

Hehe... I was expecting the followup sentence as we hear the thump of a body on the deck: "...Captain Needa."

Jim.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by CFLarsen

What if a reading is longer than 22 minutes? It can be, according to both Steve and neo.

edited: Okay, I see you've changed the question. Yes, they would edit it (we could speculate whether for content or length) or use parts of it in different shows. Do we know for certain that such situations have happened? No.

 

[CFLarsen]

It doesn't matter what, objectively, a paranormal researcher needs to have. I don't know if JE would even be qualified to tell you. What matters is how a reasonable person would react to a request for testing. And a reasonable person, in my opinion, would view a request from someone with a PhD in psychology, parapsycology or perhaps physics and a connection with a respected University differently than a request from some guy who is just interested in the matter. I do not blame him for not responding to requests from people in the "some guy" category. I would be critical of refusing tests from the other type of people I mentioned.

But, if academic degrees matter, which academic degrees? Would a Ph.D. in chemistry be qualified?

I didn't say it was a GOOD excuse. I am just saying that it is easier for him to say that he is too busy if in order to do the tests he has to take out a couple of days just to travel, rather than working them in on a seminar tour or something.

Hey, I'm flexible. But, it does seem as if JE is very allergic to real research.

 

[TLN]

What if a reading is longer than 22 minutes? It can be, according to both Steve and neo.

You're not going to admit that the show is edited for content, are you?

Let's get this thread back on track while simultaneously putting this issue to rest:

Anything that takes place on "Crossing Over" is unequivocally worthless in determining if Edward is actually speaking to dead people.

Anything that takes place on "Larry King Live" is unequivocally worthless in determining if Edward is actually speaking to dead people.

The only thing that matters is empirical data.

Where

Is

It?

 

[renata]

Whatever JE would do, it should have as much respect within the scientific community as possible, from the outset. That's even beyond just having a Ph.D, imo, and means someone who actually has a track record of peer reviewed scientific research in this field. There's no reason to bother with anyone else, if JE really wants to demonstrate scientifically that his abilities exist.

Ahhh, therein lies the conundrum. Is there such thing as respected peer reviewed research in mediumship?

Problem is, any skeptic would likely be rejected for this very reason! So we only have Schwartzes of this world

 

[CFLarsen]

Did you read my post about this?

Yesterday's show the reading lasted the entire time. So...one thing that happens if it goes over 11 minutes is....they use it.

Thank you for not answering the question:

What happens to a reading that lasts more than 22 minutes?

 

[CFLarsen]

Let's get this thread back on track while simultaneously putting this issue to rest:

Anything that takes place on "Crossing Over" is unequivocally worthless in determining if Edward is actually speaking to dead people.

Anything that takes place on "Larry King Live" is unequivocally worthless in determining if Edward is actually speaking to dead people.

The only thing that matters is empirical data.

I have no problems with that. Do believers?

 

[Clancie]

Posted by renata

Problem is, any skeptic would likely be rejected for this very reason! So we only have Schwartzes of this world

I don't think we know that for certain, renata. In fact, I would think parapsychology would be a great field for a skeptic to get into, and do research in.

It's a perfect field for a skeptic, imo, and I don't see why well done research results wouldn't be published in reputable journals (particularly as we're assuming for the sake of argument, that the results would be showing that there is no basis for the claim).

 

[renata]

I don't think we know that for certain, renata. In fact, I would think parapsychology would be a great field for a skeptic to get into, and do research in.

It's a perfect field for a skeptic, imo, and I don't see why well done research results wouldn't be published in reputable journals (particularly as we're assuming for the sake of argument, that the results would be showing that there is no basis for the claim).

OK, name 5 scientists that satisfy criteria you listed: PHD, University lab, track record of peer reviewed scientific research in this field.

If a scientist's track record was of disproving paranormal phenomena, do you really think JE would agree to be tested by them?

 

[CFLarsen]

Also, Claus, when you said you wanted to test Brian, you said you wouldn't go to him, that he would have to pay his own expenses to New York, etc.

The reason I did not go to see Brian was because Valyou insisted on knowing my personal info.

I expect you to provide the full threads for evidence.

I don't see why anyone would want to incur the expense of going to Denmark just to be tested by someone with no university credentials in this field and no published work in peer reviewed journals. If JE's going to be taking "scientific tests" they'd better be as respected within the scientific community as possible. I'm sure the time and expense and inconvenience wouldn't make participating in tests thought up by any guy from Canada, or Denmark or Cleveland Ohio worth pursuing just as a "fun hobby".

As I said, I'm flexible, and I travel to the US from time to time. And I take offense at your characterization of SkepticReport being a "fun hobby". Next objection?

Whatever JE would do, it should have as much respect within the scientific community as possible, from the outset. That's even beyond just having a Ph.D, imo, and means someone who actually has a track record of peer reviewed scientific research in this field. There's no reason to bother with anyone else, if JE really wants to demonstrate scientifically that his abilities exist.

Who?

edited: Okay, I see you've changed the question. Yes, they would edit it (we could speculate whether for content or length) or use parts of it in different shows. Do we know for certain that such situations have happened? No.

What?? I did not change the question! Will you stop lying, please?

Thank you for - finally - acknowledging that the shows are, indeed, edited for both time and content.

That means that we do not see everything that happens.

Progress.

I don't think we know that for certain, renata. In fact, I would think parapsychology would be a great field for a skeptic to get into, and do research in.

We do.

It's a perfect field for a skeptic, imo, and I don't see why well done research results wouldn't be published in reputable journals (particularly as we're assuming for the sake of argument, that the results would be showing that there is no basis for the claim).

That is what is happening, Clancie. Read Skeptic Magazine. Read what CSICOP publishes. Open your eyes.

 

[voidx]

Voidx, JE is a "mental" medium, as opposed to a full trance medium, or a physical medium. But I'd just like to stress that even among several different mental mediums, all of whom work in basically the same manner as JE, i.e. with symbols etc., you will still find varying degrees of the different types of psychic abilities. There is no "cookie cutter" stereotype medium really as far as I can tell.

And that's the problem, at least your admitting now that their methods are inconsistent even with each other. If this is a process' of any kind I find it hard to believe that the process is subjective, to however each medium wants to decide it will work.

I don't think JE has ever put a specific time limit on how long a reading can go, voidx. He simply explains that it takes an inordinate amount of effort on both the medium's and the spirit's part to accomplish this feat, and that it can indeed be quite draining.

Again, more so for some I would guess, than for others. British medium Brian Hurst only does a few group sessions here and there, and I believe George Anderson also finds that he does not have the energy to do them on a daily basis. I'm sure that after a "CO" taping or seminar event, when the adrenalin rush is over, JE is pretty beat as well......neo

Thanks for establishing that you in fact haven't read the 2 different posts in varying threads in which I've discussed this quote:

Posted by Instig8r::
Here is an excerpt from "One Last Time", written by John Edward (and posted by Neo over at TVTalk last year):

"All of us--we in physical bodies and those in the spirit world--are made up of energy expressed as atoms and molecules spinning and vibrating at certain speeds. The energy of spirits vibrates at a very high rate, while ours goes much slower because we are in physical bodies. How we bridge the gap dictates how well communications traverse these two dimensions. That's the job of a medium.

For spirits to come through, they must slow their vibrational rate of energy. Think of the blades on a helicopter. You can't see that there are four of them because they are spinning too fast. That's how I view the energy of the spirits. What happens during a reading is that as the spirits slow down their energies, I speed mine up. Communication is what happens in that space in between. But because there is that space, that gap, communication is never easy and rarely clear. There is also the fact that spirits no longer have physical bodies to facilitate communication. They have no tongues or vocal cords to pronounce words. Instead, through their energies, they place thoughts and sights and sounds in my mind. I am their mouthpiece. Though I expected to hear a great voice from beyond when I first started this work, I soon realized that it is my own voice I hear--but their thoughts and feelings.

Because both sides must expend so much energy to make this happen, the communication is very difficult and can't be sustained for more than a few minutes. To switch metaphors, it's as if you have to go to the bottom of a twelve-foot-deep swimming pool to meet your loved one. You can do it, but it takes a lot of energy to get there and after a few seconds, you have to float back to the top for air."

Care to comment on this neo? You say you guess it might be harder for some than others, so you don't know, but right here JE explains to us just how hard it is...so draining it cannot be sustained for more than a matter of minutes. Now if he reads longer than that fine, but then lets acknowledge that he made the crap above up, or at least is inconsisten with how he describes his abilities, and how he actually uses them. Here's the link to the thread:
http://www.randi.org/vbulletin

Well, speaking for myself, the reason that I do not consider the LKL transcripts representative is because in most JE readings, the initial up-front time is spent in ascertaining exactly which spirit is coming through, and who that is in relation to the sitter. So it's usually not until that is established that the real validations begin to come through.

Obviously then, these short phone readings do not allow too much time for this. Sometimes it's not even enough time for one spirit to make itself known and say all it wants to say, let alone for the multiple energies that come through in an average JE reading.......neo [/B]

I've touched on this point before, almost all of JE's information is in regard to just identifying which spirit he's talking too. All the hits are just personal information that would verify that we are indeed talking to "Uncle Sal". No significant message is ever passed on. They relate a personal tidbit of information, and the SITTER validates it and assumes whatever message they want. People need to acknowledge this. And yet again its a major kink in this whole process, the fact that the sitter is required to validate the reading, to validate the "meaning". They already know what they want to hear their relative say, by JE identifying them, they can then assume almost whatever they want. So when you say the phone readings don't allow much time for this, thats also bull. Its shown that JE does get hits on names and other identifying personal information, its just nothing special, its outnumbered by his misses, and its equal to cold reading. But he has to fish for them, giving him more time gives him more time to read body language, to refine his guess' to toss out more info for the sitter to possibly validate. I'll acknowledge your explanation if its all paranormal and he needs more time to connect, if you'll acknowledge mine if he's cold reading and just needs more time to hone in on the sitter, because its 6 of one and half dozen of the other.

 

[Clancie]

Claus,

Wow, you got a lot of things wrong in your post.

Posted by CFLarsen

The reason I did not go to see Brian was because Valyou insisted on knowing my personal info.

Apples and oranges and totally inaccurate. I'm not talking about you coming to Brian's LA readings AT ALL. I'm talking about you asking Brian to be tested by you at his own expense in New York.

Posted by CFLarsen

. And I take offense at your characterization of SkepticReport being a "fun hobby".

Wrong again. I never referred to your "Skeptic Report", fun or otherwise. I was referring to it not being a "fun hobby" for JE to go all over at his own expense everytime someone, some place, feels like"testing" him. I think my point was clear-- he should be sure the testing is scientifically credible before spending time on it, that participating takes time and energy and is inconvenient--that its not just a "fun hobby" for him.

Nothing about the Skeptic Report whatsoever, Claus. As you're so fond of saying, "It's not all about you."

Posted by CFLarsen

What?? I did not change the question! Will you stop lying, please?

Yes, you changed it. Originally you referred to "11 minutes". I thought you had repeated that, but you'd changed it to "22 minutes" apparently in response to my recent post.

Posted by CFLarsen
Thank you for - finally - acknowledging that the shows are, indeed, edited for both time and content.

I did not acknowledge this. Yes, they are edited. No, we don't know that its for time and content (i.e. to make JE look better).

Posted by CFLarsen

That is what is happening, Clancie. Read Skeptic Magazine. Read what CSICOP publishes. Open your eyes.

Well, from the discussion of Shermer's cold reading article, I thought I was the only one reading Skeptic magazine. (And that is what CSICOP publishes). I notice you didn't comment on Shermer's article as if you'd read it. Did you?

 

[CFLarsen]

Wow, you got a lot of things wrong in your post.

It's always somebody else, isn't it?

Apples and oranges and totally inaccurate. I'm not talking about you coming to Brian's LA readings AT ALL. I'm talking about you asking Brian to be tested by you at his own expense in New York.

I see. Which he declined, remember? For what reasons? Why are you so reluctant to tell the whole story?

Wrong again. I referred to it not being a "fun hobby" for JE to go all over at his own expense everytime someone, some place, felt like "testing" him. I think my point was clear: he should be sure the testing is scientifically credible before spending time on it.

By people of what academic quality? Has he ever said anything about that?

Nothing about the Skeptic Report whatsoever, Claus. As you're so fond of saying, "It's not all about you."

It sure isn't. I am just a bit confused why you seem to make it a personal issue, e.g. constantly putting me on ignore, then changing that decision.

Yes, you changed it. Originally you referred to "11 minutes". I thought you had repeated that, but you'd changed it to "22 minutes" apparently in response to my recent post.

No, no, no....an average show consists of about 11 minutes of readings. So, a reading that takes longer...what then? It takes more than 22 minutes? What happens to that?

I did not acknowledge this. Yes, they are edited. No, we don't know time and content.

But, if a reading consists of more than 22 minutes of pure, unadulterated content, then what? This never happens? It does, according to both Steve and neo.

Do you reject their testimonies, Clancie?

Well, from the discussion of Shermer's cold reading article, I thought I was the only one reading Skeptic magazine. (And that is what CSICOP publishes). I notice you didn't comment on Shermer's article as if you'd read it. Did you?

Stop changing the subject. Let's focus on what really is essential:

What happens to a reading that takes longer than the actual time slot of a CO show?

Do you know for a fact that this never happens?

Do you know for a fact that the full reading (content-wise) will be shown in a subsequent show?

I'm guessing here: You don't. So how can you be so sure that the show is not edited for content?