John Edward Sets Off The Baloney Detector

[jim_scotti]

He (and 4 others) were tested by a professor researching this at Uof Arizona. Think what you want of the tests, but the mediums did accept and participate (JE participated in all five).
[/B]

That's all fine, but Schwartz is well known to be not only sympathetic to their cause, but gullible in the extreme. Personally, I'm embarrased to have such a credulous "scientist" work at the same University I do. He does a dis-service to all by not designing proper controled experiments. Here's an interesting URL from our local student run daily paper on Schwartz : http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/92/152/01_2_m.html

A few quotes from this article are very telling:

Schwartz acknowledged that a few of the sitters were acquaintances of the mediums.

!!!!!

and

The researchers have noticed a link between belief and performance in other tests.

Must be all that negative energy from those mean old skeptics.

Here is Randis commentary from the JREF regarding Schwartz.
http://www.randi.org/jr/03-23-2001.html

Jim.

 

[TLN]

Claus stole all my follow up questions.

 

[renata]

Thanks for the article, jim-scotti!

My favorite part so far

In one experiment, people had to guess whether researchers standing behind them were looking at their heads or backs. The subjects guessed correctly nearly 60 percent of the time on average, as opposed to the 50 percent that would be expected from mere guesswork, Schwartz said.

 

[KelvinG]

Ummm....nice try to have it both ways, but it doesn't work, KelvinG. Either he's not asked because no scientific researcher takes him seriously (in which case, the onus still isn't on him to test himself). Or he refuses to be tested because he's a phony (in which case names of researchers who've asked and been refused need to be provided).

I'm not trying to have it both ways. I don't know which way it is. I wish I was in the know enough that I could tell you whether or not JE gets approached all the time to participate in studies or not. How do we know that he doesn't get frequently asked to participate in studies? Hec, Claus has asked him. I'm not particularly familiar with Claus's credentials, but you did ask for names of researchers.

How about all the paranormal studies that Steve Grenard refers to. According to him there have been countless studies with conclusive results that favour paranormal occurences. Why wasn't JE, the world's famous medium involved in any of those (with the exception of the Schwartz study). Did they not ask him? If not, did they think he was not worthy? If they did ask him, why doesn't he agree to participate?
Again, I'm not saying I know either way whether he has been asked to participate, and if he has whether he has refused or not.
I am saying that the current scenarios really seem suspicious to me.

I keep coming back to my central point: Here is a guy who claims that he can talk to the dead. This would be an absolutely remarkable breakthough in the world of science. Yet, he spends his time plying his trade on a cheesy syndicated talk show, instead of participating in research that might revolutionize the way we look at the world, our lives, and hec, everything we thought we knew.

You keep saying "How is he supposed to participate in research if no one asks him." Well, if it was me, I would be breaking down doors to get the scientific community interested in my abilities. I would do whatever it took to prove to the scientific world that I could actually speak to the dead.
But, that's just me. I like to think I'm ethical. I suspect Edward is not.

 

[hgc]

Schwartz admits that the research into human energy systems is in beginning stages, and that many details remain a mystery.

Er, beginning to look ridiculous, I'd say.

 

[CFLarsen]

Claus stole all my follow up questions.

Which Clancie won't "see". She reacts to what I write, though....maybe she's psychic, too!

 

[Darat]

From the article linked by jim_scotii

"The success of the mediums often depended on the sitters and their belief in life after death. All the mediums were able to get good information while working with a woman who had lost six loved ones in the past nine years, Schwartz said. "

!! !!

 

[thaiboxerken]

Science is the enemy to people such as JE, Browne and Schwartz. When integrity and objectivity is introduced, their claims diminish and their pocket books shrink. That's why they hide from science.

 

[TLN]

Summarizing:

• There's no public place I can view the raw data for the Schwartz experiment.
• There has been no independent replication of the Schwartz study.
• There's no proof.

I miss anything?

 

[neofight]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Instig8R
By his own admission, JE can speak to the disembodied spirits of people, and he says he can often reach them on demand -- This includes famous people. When asked if he could contact the spirit of Elvis, JE claimed that indeed he could, if he was reading Lisa Marie Presley (or another person connected to Elvis).

Hey, if he claims that he can do this, then yes - ignore what I said. If he claims theses exaggerated abilities - and not the more limited form I have described - then yes, test it with more specific measures and nail him to the wall.

Oh, gee whiz, Thanz. Is that all it takes? I realize that you qualified your response by using the "conditional" tense in responding to Instig8R, but don't you even want to ask her for a direct quote or anything, so we can see in JE's own words exactly what he said on this subject?

Not for anything, but I never remember JE coming off as quite so cocky when discussing what he can, and cannot do, so I would love to see the quote in question. Instig8R? Would you mind?

Just as an aside, is it only me, or do skeptics sometimes allow other skeptics to get away with things that they would never allow a believer to? .......neo

 

[Thanz]

Oh, gee whiz, Thanz. Is that all it takes? I realize that you qualified your response by using the "conditional" tense in responding to Instig8R, but don't you even want to ask her for a direct quote or anything, so we can see in JE's own words exactly what he said on this subject?

Not for anything, but I never remember JE coming off as quite so cocky when discussing what he can, and cannot do, so I would love to see the quote in question. Instig8R? Would you mind?

Just as an aside, is it only me, or do skeptics sometimes allow other skeptics to get away with things that they would never allow a believer to? .......neo

Well, when have I ever demanded direct quotes or anything of that nature from you? Or Clancie? Or Steve? I have taken you at your word. I see no reason to not take Instg8r at his (her?) word.

If you dispute what Instig8r has said about JE's claimed abilities, take it up with Instig8r. In the meantime, take careful note that I said "If" (as you have pointed out).

So, now I am left with Instig8r saying A, and you saying B, with neither backing it up with quotes. I think that I'll just stick with what I have said previously.

 

[Thanz]

Summarizing:

• There's no public place I can view the raw data for the Schwartz experiment.
• There has been no independent replication of the Schwartz study.
• There's no proof.

I miss anything?

Yes.

JE makes gobs of cash, and does not need to be tested to make gobs more cash in the future.

 

[neofight]

A lot of them do claim to see and hear the dead as clearly as they do the living.

I quoted from Doris Stokes, (at one time the UKs best known and most successful medium) in another post and she always claimed to see and hear them as she did living people. A web search will find many other examples that if they could do what they claim to be able to do mediums should be able to bring across a lot more specific information then they seem able to do...

But Darat, even if Doris Stokes has ultra-strong clairvoyance abilities, and is able to actually see all the spirits that come through for her clients, (and I'm not sure that is always the case)
that has little or nothing to do with what some other medium's abilities might be......neo

 

[thaiboxerken]

Yes.

JE makes gobs of cash, and does not need to be tested to make gobs more cash in the future.

Such testing would hurt JE's financial future. Why would someone want to tell the world that they are faking it? Well.. other than the small disclaimer.

 

[TLN]

JE makes gobs of cash, and does not need to be tested to make gobs more cash in the future.

Who said anything about cash, ever?

 

[neofight]

This is something I still find interesting. Varying mediums, while using the categoires of clairaudience/voyance/sentience to define their abilities seem to rather consistently disagree to how each of these three abilities works for them. Believers account for this by defining different styles of mediumship, for exampe trance mediums or (I can never remember the term) the type of mediumship JE does, or by picking and choosing who they see as authentic or not.

Voidx, JE is a "mental" medium, as opposed to a full trance medium, or a physical medium. But I'd just like to stress that even among several different mental mediums, all of whom work in basically the same manner as JE, i.e. with symbols etc., you will still find varying degrees of the different types of psychic abilities. There is no "cookie cutter" stereotype medium really as far as I can tell.

JE for example says that it is extremely draining for both medium and spirit to communicate in the fashion he does. So much so that this communication can only be sustained for a matter of a few minutes. Yet he routinely does readings that last between 15-20 minutes.

I don't think JE has ever put a specific time limit on how long a reading can go, voidx. He simply explains that it takes an inordinate amount of effort on both the medium's and the spirit's part to accomplish this feat, and that it can indeed be quite draining.

Again, more so for some I would guess, than for others. British medium Brian Hurst only does a few group sessions here and there, and I believe George Anderson also finds that he does not have the energy to do them on a daily basis. I'm sure that after a "CO" taping or seminar event, when the adrenalin rush is over, JE is pretty beat as well......neo

In fact many believers point out that the LKL transcripts are not representative because the readings are too short. Once you start looking at things closely, it just doesn't add up anymore.

Well, speaking for myself, the reason that I do not consider the LKL transcripts representative is because in most JE readings, the initial up-front time is spent in ascertaining exactly which spirit is coming through, and who that is in relation to the sitter. So it's usually not until that is established that the real validations begin to come through.

Obviously then, these short phone readings do not allow too much time for this. Sometimes it's not even enough time for one spirit to make itself known and say all it wants to say, let alone for the multiple energies that come through in an average JE reading.......neo

 

[CFLarsen]

I don't think JE has ever put a specific time limit on how long a reading can go, voidx. He simple explains that it takes an inordinate amount of effort on both the medium's and the spirit's part to accomplish this feat, and that it can indeed be quite draining.

What happens to those readings during the taping of CO that are longer than 11 minutes, neo?

You have been ignoring this for a very long time, now. One might think you don't want to answer.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by CFLarsen

What happens to those readings during the taping of CO that are longer than 11 minutes, neo?

You have been ignoring this for a very long time, now. One might think you don't want to answer.

Interestingly, Claus, yesterday's CO was basically a joint reading of two people--JE started it in the gallery and then continued with them on the sofa. Their reading lasted the entire 22 minutes (not including JE's brief intro and closing, and some highlights of their validation interviews).

So, in answer to your question...if the reading is longer than 11 minutes, there's apparently no reason they can't just go ahead and...use it.

 

[TLN]

Interestingly, Claus, yesterday's CO was basically a joint reading of two people--JE started in the gallery and then continued with them on the sofa. Their reading lasted the entire 22 minutes (not including JE's brief intro and closing, and some highlights of their validation interviews).

So, in answer to your question...if the reading is longer than 11 minutes, there's apparently no reason they can't just go ahead and...use it.

None of which is the topic of this thread.

 

[Thanz]

Who said anything about cash, ever?

Well, I am not going to list "ever" as that is a LONG list.

But, here in this thread, I did, and Zep did. And I think that the cash reason is just as valid as any other for JE not to be tested. In fact, it is the root reason.