John Edward Sets Off The Baloney Detector

[Thanz]

Your comment seems to be that you are pre-judging the outcome of any results and then using your "pre-judgment" to follow to a conclusion?

"The best we..." - how do you know this? Why shouldn't the results be completely "off the scale" if JE can communicate with the dead?

Well, it seems that some people equate comminicating with the dead with communicating with the living, but that doesn't seem to be the case with JE. It seems that communicating with the dead, for JE, is like playing the game of "telephone" - he gets random bits of info, can't tell if someone is a "father" or just a "father figure" etc.

One thing is clear - it is not the same as picking up the phone and giving someone a call. Therefore, I don't think that the results would be "off the charts". IF they are, fine. I would stand corrected. But given his other performances, I think the best he could hope for is statistically significant above chance.

If, however, they were off the charts, and he could do it repeatedly, then yes my opinion would probably have to change. But based on what I have seen, I don't think he can do it EVEN IF he was talking to the dead. Of course, I also don't think he can do it because I think he is cold reading, so that might be affecting my opinion. I just think that we need to take his performances as a sort of base line - and assume that he is doing the best he can. If that is the best he can do, I would not expect "off the charts".

Also, whatever the "hits" are, I thikn they would always be open to debate. If JE gets a hit on a father figure with a "J" name, for instance, what does that mean? How do we score it? Is it just a good guess? The inherent subjectivity in the area makes conclusive results problematic.

Using your analogy - surely Bill Gates knows where his money is?

If JE can communicate and receive the information he claims he can then many of the points in the list should be possible. If JE can do what he claims he can.

Yes, Bill Gates knows. But there is no way I could get him on the phone let alone get him to tell me where his money is.

I think that asking JE to find out where Hoffa is is just as absurd a request as asking me to find out where Bill Gates money is.

Many of the people (to broaden out from JE) who claim they can communicate to the dead do claim they can, for instance, diagnose illnesses, find deceased people and so on.

Then those people should be tested for those abilities. I don't expect any to pass.

I would also disagree about the relevance of a list like this - I think these list do demonstrate some of the consequences that follow from being able to communicate with the dead that many believers just don’t seem to address.

As I said before, it assumes too much on what the communication is. These things do not necessarily follow with being able to communicate with the dead. Some would follow if it was the same as picking up a phone to the spirit world. From what I understand, that is not what people like JE claim, so the list (I feel) is a bit of a strawman.

 

[jim_scotti]

Interesting discussion, but I think it goes back to something like TLNs original question. If I were asking the same kind of question TLN did, I would ask: "Why do the methods and results of guys like JE look and sound an awful lot like Cold reading or similar techniques used by huxters and for entertainment purposes by legitimate magicians? Why can't they produce results that a good magician cannot?"

If JE and his ilk were really communicating with the dead, then we should definitely be able to design a test that will definitively prove that. Instead, every properly conducted test I've seen produces results that are not statistically different from (perhaps intelligent) guessing.

Jim.

 

[Thanz]

Interesting discussion, but I think it goes back to something like TLNs original question. If I were asking the same kind of question TLN did, I would ask: "Why do the methods and results of guys like JE look and sound an awful lot like Cold reading or similar techniques used by huxters and for entertainment purposes by legitimate magicians? Why can't they produce results that a good magician cannot?"

The problem here is, I think, that it leads to a kind of circular argument. People who believe that JE is talking to the dead say that the magicians and huxters and cold readers simply copy the style and techniques of the REAL mediums, in order to give themselves more credibility. Sort like a chicken and egg thing. Who is copying who?

Personally, I think that they are all cold reading, but that doesn't stop the argument.

 

[Instig8R]

I think that a lot of these are just crap. It is lists like these that probably make people like Neo think that skeptics are disappointed in the messages from the "other side". What makes you think, for example, that JE can find out anything like where Jimmy Hoffa was buried? I can talk to the living. That doesn't mean I can find out where Bill Gates puts all of his money by giving him a call.

I don't know why you assume that if one can comminicate with the dead in any fashion that they should be able to do whatever it is you want them to do. This is a faulty assumption. I don't think that anyone who claims to talk to the dead has claimed to be able to do the things that you list. If they could, then maybe they would.

People who claim to talk to the dead, like JE, simply claim that the stuff that we see them do is real. If we assume that what we see is the peak of their abilities, proving that it is an ability rather than a trick will not suddenly open the doors to the things you list.

Hey, Thanz-- Perhaps if you read more of JE's books and watched more of his TV appearances, you would be aware of all of the various powers that he has claimed! Based on JE's exaggerated claims of his abilities, expecting him to do something meaningful, (like finding Jimmy Hoffa's body), is not "crap", as you state.

By his own admission, JE can speak to the disembodied spirits of people, and he says he can often reach them on demand -- This includes famous people. When asked if he could contact the spirit of Elvis, JE claimed that indeed he could, if he was reading Lisa Marie Presley (or another person connected to Elvis).

It logically follows that if one of Jimmy Hoffa's relatives went to JE for a reading, the spirit of Jimmy Hoffa could be reached. JE claims to bring closure to the grieving. If I were a member of the Hoffa family, I can think of no better closure than knowing the location of the body... not, "I'm getting a 'J' or a 'G' name", and he wants you to know that he's alright, and watching over you -- He's showing me a white rose... Oh, he's pulling his energy back now".

 

[TLN]

If JE and his ilk were really communicating with the dead, then we should definitely be able to design a test that will definitively prove that. Instead, every properly conducted test I've seen produces results that are not statistically different from (perhaps intelligent) guessing.

This is the original point of the thread. It has nothing to do with cold reading and cold readers are not necessary in any way.

If Edward can do what he claims he can do experiment can show it.

We can all sit here on these boards and discuss what we think and what our opinions are, but we'll never really know until we can conduct proper tests.

Why isn't this going on with some of the more famous--and therefore one would think, most gifted--mediums of today?

 

[Thanz]

By his own admission, JE can speak to the disembodied spirits of people, and he says he can often reach them on demand -- This includes famous people. When asked if he could contact the spirit of Elvis, JE claimed that indeed he could, if he was reading Lisa Marie Presley (or another person connected to Elvis).

It logically follows that if one of Jimmy Hoffa's relatives went to JE for a reading, the spirit of Jimmy Hoffa could be reached. JE claims to bring closure to the grieving. If I were a member of the Hoffa family, I can think of no better closure than knowing the location of the body... not, "I'm getting a 'J' or a 'G' name", and he wants you to know that he's alright, and watching over you -- He's showing me a white rose... Oh, he's pulling his energy back now".

Hey, if he claims that he can do this, then yes - ignore what I said. If he claims theses exaggerated abilities - and not the more limited form I have described - then yes, test it with more specific measures and nail him to the wall.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

By his own admission, JE can speak to the disembodied spirits of people, and he says he can often reach them on demand -- This includes famous people. When asked if he could contact the spirit of Elvis, JE claimed that indeed he could, if he was reading Lisa Marie Presley (or another person connected to Elvis).

How very convenient that he can only talk to someone if he is doing a reading for someone who already has a great deal of familiarity with the deceased.

most interesting indeed............

 

[Darat]

...snip...




As I said before, it assumes too much on what the communication is. These things do not necessarily follow with being able to communicate with the dead. Some would follow if it was the same as picking up a phone to the spirit world. From what I understand, that is not what people like JE claim, so the list (I feel) is a bit of a strawman.

A lot of them do claim to see and hear the dead as clearly as they do the living.

I quoted from Doris Stokes, (at one time the UKs best known and most successful medium) in another post and she always claimed to see and hear them as she did living people. A web search will find many other examples that if they could do what they claim to be able to do mediums should be able to bring across a lot more specific information then they seem able to do...

 

[CFLarsen]

Graham Bishop, currently "operating" in Denmark, also speaks to and hears mediums. Sometimes, he has to tell them not to be so loud!

 

[juninho]

Originally posted by Thanz
5. Eliminate all criminal trials for murder. JE tells who the killer is, and straight to the chair.

He's hardly likely to do that is he, I mean once they were dead they'd be constantly in contact with him telling him what a complete w@>ker he is. He wouldn't get a minutes peace

 

[robbersdog]

Mediums claim to get all their info from the spirits. If they can do repeated readings and produce personal info while only getting yes/no answers, surely that's testable.

THEY WON'T ALLOW THEMSELVES TO BE TESTED, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY PSYCHIC ABILITIES!

How obvious does this have to be for the general public? Why do so many people poor moeny into the mediums pockets? I despair at humanity, I really do.

 

[voidx]

A lot of them do claim to see and hear the dead as clearly as they do the living.

...snip...

This is something I still find interesting. Varying mediums, while using the categoires of clairaudience/voyance/sentience to define their abilities seem to rather consistently disagree to how each of these three abilities works for them. Believers account for this by defining different styles of mediumship, for exampe trance mediums or (I can never remember the term) the type of mediumship JE does, or by picking and choosing who they see as authentic or not. For example the Pet Pychic seems to disagree in some of her definitions with JE, oh but thats simple, they tend to agree she's a fraud, so it doesn't count. But at times even mediums definitions of how their abilities work, and then how they do them isn't consistent. JE for example says that it is extremely draining for both medium and spirit to communicate in the fashion he does. So much so that this communication can only be sustained for a matter of a few minutes. Yet he routinely does readings that last between 15-20 minutes. In fact many believers point out that the LKL transcripts are not representative because the readings are too short. Once you start looking at things closely, it just doesn't add up anymore.

 

[KelvinG]

This is the original point of the thread. It has nothing to do with cold reading and cold readers are not necessary in any way.

If Edward can do what he claims he can do experiment can show it.

We can all sit here on these boards and discuss what we think and what our opinions are, but we'll never really know until we can conduct proper tests.

Why isn't this going on with some of the more famous--and therefore one would think, most gifted--mediums of today?

Because he's too busy, nobody has asked him, blah, blah, blah.

As I said in another thread, the fact that no legitimate scientist or organization has asked Edward to be tested speaks loudly about just how seriously his parlor tricks are taken.

HE SAYS HE CAN SPEAK TO THE DEAD, FOR GOD SAKES!!!
And no one seems to really care!!!!

And Edward himself isn't doing anything in his power to encourage the scientific community to test him.

I think those who believe in JE have to stop for a moment and really think hard about just how silly this whole talking to the dead nonsense really is.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by robbersdog

Mediums claim to get all their info from the spirits. If they can do repeated readings and produce personal info while only getting yes/no answers, surely that's testable.

THEY WON'T ALLOW THEMSELVES TO BE TESTED, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ANY PSYCHIC ABILITIES!

Of all the criticisms leveled at JE, actually this is the one that irks me the most, robbersdog.

He (and 4 others) were tested by a professor researching this at Uof Arizona. Think what you want of the tests, but the mediums did accept and participate (JE participated in all five).

Unless people can cite scientists who have asked JE to test with them, and been refused by him, then I think this criticism is bogus.

(And, as a side note, Mrs. Piper submitted herself to testing for 20 years. You may not like the tests. You may not like the results. But it is INACCURATE to say "they won't allow themselves to be tested").

If you know of researchers they've turned down, please list them. Otherwise, its a total non-issue.

Posted by KelvinG

As I said in another thread, the fact that no legitimate scientist or organization has asked Edward to be tested speaks loudly about just how seriously his parlor tricks are taken

Ummm....nice try to have it both ways, but it doesn't work, KelvinG. Either he's not asked because no scientific researcher takes him seriously (in which case, the onus still isn't on him to test himself). Or he refuses to be tested because he's a phony (in which case names of researchers who've asked and been refused need to be provided).

Either way, when it comes to participating in scientific research, if no one asks, then its not a fair criticism to say he won't do it. If no one is asking, we really don't know if he would or not (Certainly he deserves credit for accpeting the only person so far who has actually asked).

 

[TLN]

He (and 4 others) were tested by a professor researching this at Uof Arizona. Think what you want of the tests, but the mediums did accept and participate (JE participated in all five).

Clancie, can I see this data?

Unless people can cite scientists who have asked JE to test with them, and been refused by him, then I think this criticism is bogus.

Why don't they volunteer?

If you know of researchers they've turned down, please list them. Otherwise, its a total non-issue.

The issue is why they don't volunteer. Your thoughts?

 

[CFLarsen]

If you know of researchers they've turned down, please list them. Otherwise, its a total non-issue.

Me. I sent JE an email where I offered to test him. No reply.

Oh, I'm not good enough? Then please list the credentials required to test JE.

 

[Clancie]

Posted by TLN

Clancie, can I see this data?

Schwartz used some in his book, TLN. Have you asked to go to Az. and have a look at the rest? If you're a researcher into all this, he might welcome you. Why not ask him? He invited Randi.

Why don't they volunteer?

I'm sorry, but this always strikes me as a ludicrous idea. In JE's position, as a working medium, would you travel the country trying to find a university (somewhere) with a professor (somewhere) who was willing to/interested in/ had the funding and academic support for...research into this?

The issue is why they don't volunteer. Your thoughts?

Volunteer? To whom?

In JE's situation, no, hunting for someone to test me wouldn't be a priority (especially to me, since I doubt that this can be adequately tested anyway. Validations and information are too subjective, imo, to lend itself to reliable tests).

 

[voidx]

TLN Clancies referring to the "Afterlife Experiments" that were conducted by Schwartz. I don't have a link to any of it, but I'm sure someone else does. A critique was in an issue of the skeptical inquirer (or Sci Am can't remember which).

 

[Clancie]

Yes, voidx (and the critique was in Skeptical Inquirer/Skeptic).

And TLN here's a link for Schwartz:

http://www.openmindsciences.com/hbo-exp.htm

 

[CFLarsen]

Schwartz used some in his book, TLN. Have you asked to go to Az. and have a look at the rest? If you're a researcher into all this, he might welcome you. Why not ask him? He invited Randi.

"We also explained to the mediums that the raw data of the actual mediumship sessions would become the property of the University of Arizone, not of Lucky Duck or HBO. The videotapes would capture the raw data, collected first and foremost for scientific reasons. And the raw data had to be available for concise scoring. It also had to be available for anyone to see."
Schwartz, "The Afterlife experiments", p. 53

(Emphasis mine)

So, Clancie, why can't "anyone" see this raw data?

I'm sorry, but this always strikes me as a ludicrous idea. In JE's position, as a working medium, would you travel the country trying to find a university (somewhere) with a professor (somewhere) who was willing to/interested in/ had the funding and academic support for...research into this?

No need to "travel", Clancie. Just announce it, e.g. via his website, or even Larry King Live.

Volunteer? To whom?

Me. Why not? Who is qualified, Clancie?

In JE's situation, no, hunting for someone to test me wouldn't be a priority (especially to me, since I doubt that this can be adequately tested anyway. Validations and information are too subjective, imo, to lend itself to reliable tests).

Which is why we need independent verification of the hits. Can you point to just one incident in ArizonaExp where this happens?