John Edward - psychic or what?

[Resume]

I have seen John Edward live. He is impressive for sure. I doubt he has real powered though. Almost everyone at this performance was a believer more than willing confirm comments to get a reading.

In what way?

 

[AlaskaBushPilot]

And I'm sorry for any responses on my part which showed my Sicilian side! Who knows, maybe in the next life some of us will even be friends...as long as you have nothing against short people, that is : ) Until then...Live long and prosper... : )

That's an improvement over insulting people for not believing incredible claims with no evidence.

But this civility is not for the purpose of meeting one another in the afterlife. It is in the interest of peaceful exchange in the present. Because the incivility is what leads down the road to hatred and ultimately violence.

 

[pakeha]

... I will again offer one final Biblical quote for all here who claim that it is the very teachings in the Bible that have turned you into atheists...and REALLY PLEASE REFLECT on it and how it MAY or may not apply to you:
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
1 Timothy 4 : 1-2

I find it interesting you use the first half only of that scripture quotation I used.

ETA
Here's the complete quotation:
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron." 1 Timothy 4:1-2


What was your motive in chopping the scripture, Robin?

 

[TSR]

Actually, no Garrette , I was quoting Jesus Himself

Actually, no Robin: you were quoting authors writing years after the death of Christ, who likely had never met the man, so were quoting others, who were supposedly quoting Christ.

And He told me to tell you to throw out the milk, it's about to turn...

 

[pakeha]

Actually, no Garrette , I was quoting Jesus Himself...who of course was quoting the Ten Commandments. A fine distinction, but in general you really should try to read more carefully next time... as it can definitely affect your comprehension of the subject matter. ...

Robin, since you hold scripture dear, please tell us why you chopped it in this case:

From
""The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron." 1 Timothy 4:1-2"

to your chop:

Originally Posted by Robin Stettnisch View Post
"... I will again offer one final Biblical quote for all here who claim that it is the very teachings in the Bible that have turned you into atheists...and REALLY PLEASE REFLECT on it and how it MAY or may not apply to you:
"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
1 Timothy 4 : 1-2"

A great many people have taken the time and trouble to show you the nature of the scam you've been taken in by.
In this case, falling for the scam of mediumship is made even worse by the fact it is expressly forbidden by your own religion.

It may take years for a scam victim to understand how deeply they've fallen into the power of a conman and many more to recover from the shame, embarrassment and self-hatred they can feel.

Robin, when you eventually see you've been taken in by a clever and unscrupulous hustler, please don't hesitate to seek professional counselling. There are also support groups for victims of scammers that would be able to help.
All the best!

 

[scarlettinlondon]

Robin,

You are correct, you might reach one person here and change a mind. However, what about all the believers who might be attracted to this thread because of your posts? Any number of them might be converted to non-believers. This is a dangerous game you are playing.

Ward

I was a nun until I came across this thread. Now I am an Ebil Atheist. Thank you Robin, I have seen the light

Signed, EXNUNLURKERTYPE

 

[Garrette]

I was a nun until I came across this thread. Now I am an Ebil Atheist. Thank you Robin, I have seen the light

Signed, EXNUNLURKERTYPE

Aint no thang hotter than a ex nun.

mmmmm.........HMMMMMMMM!

 

[Reno]

mmmmm.........HMMMMMMMM!

french fried potaters.

 

[phunk]

Thinking about it, both my step-mum and a friend of mine go by their middle names. I'd not really thought about it before, but it can't be that uncommon.

Both of my brothers and my father go by their middle names. It's really not at all uncommon.

 

[Reno]

For 42 years I was known by everyone with a name completely different from my birth certificate name name. At 42, I started a new life, and started using my birth certificate name. Now everyone in my working and business life knows me by my given name, my old friends know me as my other name and my new friends know by by another completely different name.

So I am known with 3 completely different names. And that is only the forenames. I am known with 3 different surnames to the same groups!

 

[12AX7]

I have read this entire thread. Many people have tried to explain to Robin Stettnisch why (and how) folks like John Edward do what they do, but it has fallen on deaf ears.

I truly feel for you, Robin Stettnisch. You have held on to the hope that our loved ones survive death, so much so that you went from medium to medium until you found one to validate your belief system. No amount of logic or reason will convince you otherwise. It is sad, really, to watch an otherwise intelligent person be duped by a man (and indeed, a profession) who exists solely to manipulate the feelings of the grieving. He uses an understanding of the human mind, psychology, and slight-of-hand cold reading tricks to convince people; and you bought it. You are thinking with emotions, not logic, and we cannot convince you otherwise, because you want to believe it.

Randi himself can sum it up better than I ever could. You are a 'believer', Robin Stettnisch.

 

[Garrette]

Garrette, no, I can't say I agree with your summary. Listen, bottom line, I don't believe you or most people on here are deliberately trying to hurt anyone with your beliefs. And neither am I. And I think that matters...a lot. In actuality, I would have loved to hear about your "Castaneda phase" but I think you would agree that it's time to move on. And yes, I'm tired too. I do appreciate anyone who tried to engage in these debates (both here and on my thread) without purposely trying to be hurtful...and you know who you are. And I'm sorry for any responses on my part which showed my Sicilian side! Who knows, maybe in the next life some of us will even be friends...as long as you have nothing against short people, that is : ) Until then...Live long and prosper... : )

Robin, for the record, I really don't mind some abrasiveness; I have a rather thick skin, as I suppose most in this thread do. What I object to, and what I again suppose others in this thread object to, is abrasiveness while pretending not to be and accusing others of behavior which better describes your own.

More importantly, the behavior is irrelevant if there is an argument with facts hidden somewhere. Unfortunately, this post of yours demonstrates that there are no facts; it is a good example of how you have debated throughout this thread: You make claims then refuse to actually discuss it; instead, you simply reassert the claim and accuse us of not listening.

Perhaps we are wrong, but the way to demonstrate it is to actually discuss facts. Perhaps you are wrong, but the only way to learn is to actually discuss facts.

Oh, well. Regardless if you return or not, LL&P to you, too.

 

[batvette]

the pope in the pizza

not that I would attempt to assume or defend Robin's position but seems to me the quotes furnished from the vatican, the bible, etc, forbidding or advising against use of mediums or other paranormal means, do not disprove paranormal means but may even be argued as validating them.
It might be said Edwards could have some telepathic abilities and be a charlatan and con man at the same time. Telepathic abilities would not be the same as communicating with the dead, and as I understand it there have been some breakthroughs in research by credible individuals on the probable mechanisms of telepathic communication between humans. We accept whales communicate over long distance, we accept homing pidgeons navigate long distances, we accept salmon returning to spawn over great distances, it's not absurd to believe humans have a mechanism to do similar fantastic things that only function in our subconscious state- and some rare individuals may have more abilities than others. Perhaps they then abuse it to make a living.
I disbelieve most paranormal, with the exception of telepathy and similar phenomenon, I have some personal experiences to convince myself but of course know that's worth about 2 cents to anyone else.
If anyone is familiar with the research of Jose Silva they may understand why clinical documentation is nearly impossible. When it happens the mind and body must be in an extremely relaxed state.
As for atheism well it's not hard to conclude organized religion is bull huckey, but arguing there is no God is not much different than arguing there is. I guess that would all depend on what form one would allow God to take for the argument. God as a bearded old guy who created everything in 7 days? Or God as a life form more advanced than ours and may exist on a plane or dimension we have not yet truly revealed?
Ultimately it's not likely the God of the Bible is real because he'd be furious with all the humans using his identity to screw over other humans- however it could be said religion is good because it simply offers hope that there is something better in our future than what we experienced for 70 odd years here- and with this kind of hope humans can endure the worst of conditions.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

We accept whales communicate over long distance, we accept homing pidgeons navigate long distances, we accept salmon returning to spawn over great distances, it's not absurd to believe humans have a mechanism to do similar fantastic things that only function in our subconscious state- and some rare individuals may have more abilities than others.

As soon as it can be demonstrated under testing which eliminates bias and fraud, I'll believe it. Until then, I'll stick with the null hypothesis, which is that it doesn't exist.

You certainly don't need to invoke ESP to explain John Edward. Cold and hot reading explain everything perfectly well.

If anyone is familiar with the research of Jose Silva they may understand why clinical documentation is nearly impossible. When it happens the mind and body must be in an extremely relaxed state.

I think calling it "research" is being extremely kind.

Ultimately it's not likely the God of the Bible is real because he'd be furious with all the humans using his identity to screw over other humans-

Would he? Seems to me that there's a lot of that already in the Bible. And it's not like he couldn't stop us if he wanted to.

however it could be said religion is good because it simply offers hope that there is something better in our future than what we experienced for 70 odd years here- and with this kind of hope humans can endure the worst of conditions.

Conversely, you could say that not believing everything's going to work out okay in the end might make us all strive to make the here and now better.

 

[Resume]

We accept whales communicate over long distance, we accept homing pidgeons navigate long distances, we accept salmon returning to spawn over great distances, it's not absurd to believe humans have a mechanism to do similar fantastic things that only function in our subconscious state- and some rare individuals may have more abilities than others. Perhaps they then abuse it to make a living.
I disbelieve most paranormal, with the exception of telepathy and similar phenomenon, I have some personal experiences to convince myself but of course know that's worth about 2 cents to anyone else.

As one can see from the plethora of cold readers from Altea to Edward and others, this ability isn't all that rare. If it were a true paranormal ability, however rare, it could still be tested.

It hasn't been shown to exist.

 

[poblob14]

not that I would attempt to assume or defend Robin's position but seems to me the quotes furnished from the vatican, the bible, etc, forbidding or advising against use of mediums or other paranormal means, do not disprove paranormal means but may even be argued as validating them.

Not that I buy any of this, mind you, but the church prohibits use of mediums and such, not because they believe they are real, but because they believe that Satan or some demon is providing the messages.

 

[pakeha]

not that I would attempt to assume or defend Robin's position but seems to me the quotes furnished from the vatican, the bible, etc, forbidding or advising against use of mediums or other paranormal means, do not disprove paranormal means but may even be argued as validating them.
It might be said Edwards could have some telepathic abilities and be a charlatan and con man at the same time. Telepathic abilities would not be the same as communicating with the dead, and as I understand it there have been some breakthroughs in research by credible individuals on the probable mechanisms of telepathic communication between humans. ...

Welcome to the forum, batvette.
I'd be interested in learning more about those breakthroughs in the research.

I see you point about the prohibitions against mediumship.
Do keep in mind those prohibitions claim mediumship is false and classify it with astrology and other means of 'divination'.
In other words, bunkum.

 

[batvette]

Welcome to the forum, batvette.
I'd be interested in learning more about those breakthroughs in the research.

I see you point about the prohibitions against mediumship.
Do keep in mind those prohibitions claim mediumship is false and classify it with astrology and other means of 'divination'.
In other words, bunkum.

Here is one I have seen:

skeptiko . com/michael-persinger-discovers-telepathic-link/

 

[pakeha]

Hi, batvette.
Thanks for the link!

...
Alex Tsakiris: Welcome to Skeptiko where we explore controversial science with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I’m your host, Alex Tsakiris, and before we get started with today’s interview, and a very fascinating interview it is with Dr. Michael Persinger, I’m going to take a minute and invite you to connect – connect with this show, Skeptiko, and with me personally. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Persinger

...During the 1980s he stimulated people's temporal lobes artificially with a weak magnetic field to see if he could induce a religious state (see God helmet). He claimed that the field could produce the sensation of "an ethereal presence in the room". This research has received wide coverage in the media, with high profile visitors to Persinger's lab Susan Blackmore and Richard Dawkins reporting positive[13] and negative[14] results respectively.

The only published attempt to replicate these effects failed to do so and concluded that subjects' reports correlated with their personality characteristics and suggestibility. They also criticised Persinger for insufficient double-blinding and argued that there was no physiologically plausible mechanism by which his device could affect the brain.[1][5] Persinger responded that the researchers had an incorrect computer setup[15] and that many of his previous experiments were indeed carried out double-blind.[16] Both claims are disputed.[2]

The evidence base on which Persinger's theory rests has been criticised[6] and commercial versions of Persinger's devices sold by his research associate Todd Murphy have proved unable to produce the effects that Murphy claims under experimental conditions.[17

Also,

In December 2004 Nature reported that a group of Swedish researchers led by Pehr Granqvist, a psychologist at Uppsala University in Sweden, had attempted to replicate Persinger's experiments under double-blind conditions, and were not able to reproduce the effect.[8] The study was published in Neuroscience Letters in 2005.[10] Granqvist et al concluded that the presence or absence of the magnetic field had no relationship with any religious or spiritual experience reported by the participants, but was predicted entirely by their suggestibility and personality traits. Persinger, however, takes issue with the Swedish attempts to replicate his work. "They didn't replicate it, not even close," he says.[8] He argues that the Swedish group did not expose the subjects to magnetic fields for long enough to produce an effect. Granqvist et al. respond that Persinger agreed with their proposed methodology beforehand[42] and they stand by their replication.[12]

The theoretical basis for the God helmet, especially the connection between temporal lobe function and mystic experiences,[43][44] has also been questioned.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet


What I take away from this is that the claim is not exactly graven in stone as of yet.

 

[batvette]

What I take away from this is that the claim is not exactly graven in stone as of yet.

Oh yeah.

I think the most tangible thing to take away from his research, if it does in fact stand up to be that and credible, is that he may be establishing a mechanism to explain how telepathy is possible.
That is a vital component to acceptance as a scientifically documented phenomenon.

One thing I wanted to explain about the so far lack of clinically proven testing, is that the Silva method theorized that it was something most greatly experienced in near complete relaxation. (I attended the Silva seminars when I was about 13 years old with my parents, around 1975)
My personal belief, obviously just speculating, is that it- along with many other forms of paranormal activity- may be simply a tool mother nature gave us for survival, part of "instinct". Imagine early man, engaged in persistence hunting, is chasing a deer who has gotten far ahead and he reaches a fork in the trail- which way to go? Not enough time to rationalize his choice, he goes with his gut instinct. A "sixth sense" if you will to guide all others.
The first thing the Silva instructor said was "the first instinctive choice, is usually the right one".

So with that in mind I can't really imagine that calling upon this "tool" in a laboratory environment would be an easy thing to do, especially if one is demanded to do so and there is not much riding on it but proving it to someone. It allegedly dwells in the subconscious mind, and the way it manifests itself, at least in my experience, is very subtle. It's not like words appear on a screen inside your eyelids, or yell into your head- but trusting your own instinct that a piece of information that just came to your mind is something to pay attention to is the key component.

Moreover one isn't sufficiently relaxed, and maybe your own subconscious would suppress it if it were called upon to do what amounts to be parlor tricks- if indeed we possessed it as a means of survival.

I'm not here to promote it to be sure, and I do recognize that the Silva method and others have a bit of charlatanry about them. (and I certainly encourage skepticism concerning false psychics exploiting people) I recognized some time ago that a demonstration we did at the end of the seminar was simply a form of hot reading that we didn't know we were doing.

It doesn't mean there isn't something to all this, it's absurd to think we know all the secrets of human physiology or what we're capable of. I know that at least two instances in my adult life that confirmed all this to me were not of the hot or cold reading type, once when I projected a thought and another where one was projected to me. (I'd be happy to elaborate but of course this leaves you taking the world of a stranger) Another time I was in the presence of a remarkable young woman who had lost her sight during the previous year, and immediately when we met we could both feel a connection. Within minutes she was finishing the sentences I was making.

Maybe like God, (I'm agnostic FWIW) it's something that is meant to never be proven or disproven- or abused.