Cont: Jogging in Georgia while black - The Trial

[bruto]

He was in a different car. He was not in communication with the McMichaels. He did not know the McMichaels other than that they lived in the neighborhood. He had not seen the videos of Arbery in the construction site. He probably had heard the neighborhood rumors of thefts taking place and a black guy repeatedly trespassing on English's property. When he saw the McMichaels chasing a guy down the street and yelling at him to stop, he figured they had seen the guy do something wrong. His words were that he thought they had seen him shoot somebody. He joined in the chase to try to block the guy running away and keep him in the neighborhood. He was chasing Arbery when Arbery turned around and ran back toward the McMichaels. It wasn't until he came back around a bend that he saw Travis with the shotgun. At that point there was nothing he could do.

Thanks for clarifying. A little more sympathy. Not a whole lot, but a little.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

I am a bit surprised that the feds chose to pursue this case. I think it is probably more to do with public outrage more than anything else. Justice has already been served. At least for these three guys. Still a way to go on the corrupt DAs that tried to sweep it under the rug.

Justice has been served. Pursuing a Federal hate crime mostly unnecessarily complicates things. If they offer a plea deal, they have to offer something in exchange. They are already facing life sentences, so the number of years on a Federal sentence doesn't matter. Serving in Federal rather than Georgia prison is really all they can give.

US Attorney's Office says they consulted with Arbery's family attorneys, and they said the family had no objections. This would be required by law, so I'm sure it is documented. Maybe the family didn't understand that Federal prison is slightly less horrible than Georgia prison when they did not object to the plea deal.

The plea deal was fair. Neither side gets much. They admit to being guilty of a hate crime, which gives some closure to the family and bolsters the hate crime statutes and shows that the feds will get a conviction when a State will not (even though the State did get a conviction eventually). It puts the nail in the coffin on any appeals, other than possibly an appeal on the State sentencing. And it is done and over. The feds get all that in exchange for them serving the first 30 years in a slightly less terrible prison than they would otherwise. Seems like a fair dela to me.

Absent that, they would have to go to trial. The hate crime charges are by no means a slam dunk. I think the evidence shows that they did this because they thought Arbery was the neighborhood thief. I think that belief was heavily influenced by their racism. That is a step removed from acting because of racism. I could understand a juror having a reasonable doubt that this fits the definition of a hate crime. A conviction is possible, but not a certainty. I would put it at about 60-65%.

If goes to trial and they get an acquittal or even a hung jury, that gives no closure to the family. And we will certainly hear shouts that this proves that the liberal claims that this had anything to do with racism are completely false. That would be detrimental to the family and to national discourse on racism. That very possible risk for the sake of very little seems unwise.

 

[smartcooky]

I am a bit surprised that the feds chose to pursue this case. I think it is probably more to do with public outrage more than anything else. Justice has already been served. At least for these three guys. Still a way to go on the corrupt DAs that tried to sweep it under the rug.

Justice has been served. Pursuing a Federal hate crime mostly unnecessarily complicates things. If they offer a plea deal, they have to offer something in exchange. They are already facing life sentences, so the number of years on a Federal sentence doesn't matter. Serving in Federal rather than Georgia prison is really all they can give.

US Attorney's Office says they consulted with Arbery's family attorneys, and they said the family had no objections. This would be required by law, so I'm sure it is documented. Maybe the family didn't understand that Federal prison is slightly less horrible than Georgia prison when they did not object to the plea deal.

The plea deal was fair. Neither side gets much. They admit to being guilty of a hate crime, which gives some closure to the family and bolsters the hate crime statutes and shows that the feds will get a conviction when a State will not (even though the State did get a conviction eventually). It puts the nail in the coffin on any appeals, other than possibly an appeal on the State sentencing. And it is done and over. The feds get all that in exchange for them serving the first 30 years in a slightly less terrible prison than they would otherwise. Seems like a fair dela to me.

Absent that, they would have to go to trial. The hate crime charges are by no means a slam dunk. I think the evidence shows that they did this because they thought Arbery was the neighborhood thief. I think that belief was heavily influenced by their racism. That is a step removed from acting because of racism. I could understand a juror having a reasonable doubt that this fits the definition of a hate crime. A conviction is possible, but not a certainty. I would put it at about 60-65%.

If goes to trial and they get an acquittal or even a hung jury, that gives no closure to the family. And we will certainly hear shouts that this proves that the liberal claims that this had anything to do with racism are completely false. That would be detrimental to the family and to national discourse on racism. That very possible risk for the sake of very little seems unwise.

It also pardon-proofs the convictions against a future Governor, who would not be able to pardon Federal crimes

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

It also pardon-proofs the convictions against a future Governor, who would not be able to pardon Federal crimes

Yeah. Feds get quite a bit in exchange for serving time in a terrible prison rather than a slightly more terrible prison.

 

[Warp12]

He was in a different car. He was not in communication with the McMichaels. He did not know the McMichaels other than that they lived in the neighborhood. He had not seen the videos of Arbery in the construction site. He probably had heard the neighborhood rumors of thefts taking place and a black guy repeatedly trespassing on English's property. When he saw the McMichaels chasing a guy down the street and yelling at him to stop, he figured they had seen the guy do something wrong. His words were that he thought they had seen him shoot somebody. He joined in the chase to try to block the guy running away and keep him in the neighborhood. He was chasing Arbery when Arbery turned around and ran back toward the McMichaels. It wasn't until he came back around a bend that he saw Travis with the shotgun. At that point there was nothing he could do.

Thanks for clarifying. A little more sympathy. Not a whole lot, but a little.

He is 52 and must serve a minimum of 30 years. Essentially, he was sentenced to likely die in prison. Pretty bogus for his level of involvement, imo.

 

[Bob001]

He was in a different car. He was not in communication with the McMichaels. He did not know the McMichaels other than that they lived in the neighborhood. He had not seen the videos of Arbery in the construction site. He probably had heard the neighborhood rumors of thefts taking place and a black guy repeatedly trespassing on English's property. When he saw the McMichaels chasing a guy down the street and yelling at him to stop, he figured they had seen the guy do something wrong. His words were that he thought they had seen him shoot somebody. He joined in the chase to try to block the guy running away and keep him in the neighborhood. He was chasing Arbery when Arbery turned around and ran back toward the McMichaels. It wasn't until he came back around a bend that he saw Travis with the shotgun. At that point there was nothing he could do.

That's what moved his status from passive observer to active participant. He didn't know the McMichaels, he didn't know Arbery, but he figured "The black guy must have done something wrong so I'll help catch him." If he had just taken the video from a distance maybe Arbery would have had a chance (however slim) to get away.

Having said that, I don't know what his level of cooperation with the prosecution might have been. Did he turn down a plea deal? Did he refuse to testify against the McMichaels? Did he think a Georgia jury wouldn't convict him? He might have been able to work something out.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

That's what moved his status from passive observer to active participant. He didn't know the McMichaels, he didn't know Arbery, but he figured "The black guy must have done something wrong so I'll help catch him." If he had just taken the video from a distance maybe Arbery would have had a chance (however slim) to get away.

Having said that, I don't know what his level of cooperation with the prosecution might have been. Did he turn down a plea deal? Did he refuse to testify against the McMichaels? Did he think a Georgia jury wouldn't convict him? He might have been able to work something out.

This is leading down the path of rehashing all the details of the case that are publicly available and have been extensively discussed in this thread. To keep it brief, the DA swept this under the table because it was a black guy and because Greg was a former police officer and employee of the DAs office. Roddie recorded the whole the on video. After this got swept under, there were issues that they just went out into the street and shot a black guy because racism. Roddie felt that Arbery turning on Travis when he had the shotgun on him proved that they did not just straight out chase down and execute a black man. Travis fired in defense of this criminal.

Once this came out under the rug, Georgia did not offer a plea deal to any of them. He did not testify against the McMichaels. At least initially he would have believed that he would not be convicted or even charged or even considered for being charged. This was all swept under the rug and done, and they were all free and nobody cared. Roddie sent the video to the press, and it all came to the fore.

 

[Venom]

He is 52 and must serve a minimum of 30 years. Essentially, he was sentenced to likely die in prison. Pretty bogus for his level of involvement, imo.

I have to agree.

 

[smartcooky]

He is 52 and must serve a minimum of 30 years. Essentially, he was sentenced to likely die in prison. Pretty bogus for his level of involvement, imo.

He chose his own path in this.
He actively participated the chase
He blocked Arbery's means of escape, to the point of hitting him with his vehicle
He was culpable for the execution of the victim
He has only himself to blame for the position he now finds himself in

I have no sympathy for Bryan, he's just another Georgia "Good 'Ol Boy" racist like his two cohorts, and his culpability is only marginally less than theirs.

Save your sympathy for the real victims here; Arbery, and his family.

 

[JoeMorgue]

This isn't like walking in on your wife banging the mailman and seeing red or glancing down at your phone and blowing through a stop sign and t-boning a minivan. It's not a moment of passion crime or "I lost situational awareness for a moment" crime.

Just NOT joining the lynch mob isn't difficult. Like it would have taken him exactly zero effort to not do what he did. If you think otherwise you are an across the board horrible human being.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

He is 52 and must serve a minimum of 30 years. Essentially, he was sentenced to likely die in prison. Pretty bogus for his level of involvement, imo.

Yeah, it's funny as hell. dude should have just stayed on his couch rather than trust his former cop neighbor to have good judgement in such matters. I imagine he's going to be replaying that decision in his mind for some time.

ETA: Wasn't the elder McMichael also the one that insisted on releasing the snuff film to the public? Hall-of-fame levels of bad judgement coming from that idiot.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I'm reminded of a comment I saw that said "I'm a rural, conservative white man living in the South and I cannot stress how little effort it has taken me to never wear blackface. Like it hasn't even been hard."

 

[JoeMorgue]

ETA: Wasn't the elder McMichael also the one that insisted on releasing the snuff film to the public? Hall-of-fame levels of bad judgement coming from that idiot.

To this day I still wonder if he thought that was going to make HIM look better.

Not a smart decision as you say, but I wonder if he wasn't angling for some "Hey if it wasn't for me..." thing.

 

[Lerxst]

There is no possibility for parole for anyone but Ronnie, if I remember correctly. So it's not like the Feds need to back that up. There's also no statute of limitations for the charges they're facing, so really no need to move forward at all.

Yes, Federal Prison would be a no-brainer for these guys. I would bet dimes to donuts that the Georgia state prison is fairly full of people with the same skin color as Arbery that are just itching to see these guys.

Prison's in general are nasty as ****, it really doesn't matter which one you go to, but from the people I've talked to Federal is better for a few reasons. 1) you don't have to stay in the state you were convicted in 2) Better food 3) more options with regards to items you can purchase while inside.

All things considered I'd prefer the Feds just drop it. They aren't going anywhere.

Elder McMichael is also former law enforcement, which doesn't go over well in ANY prison.

 

[ZirconBlue]

My take on this is that it shouldn't make sense, but that does not mean it always doesn't. As long as the possibility exists, in the extremely strange and warped political climate, especially of Georgia, for a pardon or a mitigation of the sentence, there's something to be said for a Federal backup. And if a successful civil rights charge occurs, perhaps it would have an effect on other things, such as the readiness of state prosecutors to sweep stuff under the rug, or of state juries to minimize future sentences, or even of good-old-boys to take certain risks. It's all theoretical, and all ought, I think, to be unnecessary in a case like this, but I can see why some people might consider it useful. My house hasn't burned down yet, and it probably never will, but it's insured.

I'm glad at least that their Fed. prison plea deal fell through. I suspect that the atmosphere in a Georgia prison will be a little stressful.

All that, and it's much harder to try a case years later. Better to do it now.

 

[plague311]

ETA: Wasn't the elder McMichael also the one that insisted on releasing the snuff film to the public? Hall-of-fame levels of bad judgement coming from that idiot.

I thought it was the younger McMichael that shared it under a fake profile in the neighborhood Facebook group, where it then got released to the media by someone in that group.

All that, and it's much harder to try a case years later. Better to do it now.

That's undeniably true, but I really don't think with this case it would make much of a difference because of the state conviction. The prosecution didn't really need to call any witnesses that had to rely on memory for things, and the evidence is pretty rock solid.

I'm not going to lose sleep either way, I guess. I am in the "let them serve the hardest ******* time there is available" camp. I would prefer them to stay in state prison.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I don't think there is anything improper about the feds trying to stitch this thing up with a plea deal. The killers already got severe sentences from the state courts, and federal resources aren't infinite. It's arguable that spending the effort of a trial to get a redundant federal sentence for these three murderers is not a good use of resources. A not very generous plea deal and avoiding having to expend a huge effort for a trial seems like a decent approach to managing a case where all three defendants are going to be spending decades in prison regardless.

I can also sympathize with Arbery's surviving family. Obviously they only want the worst for the three men who lynched their son, and their experience with law enforcement pencil-whipping away a murder investigation gives them good reason to be distrustful.

Federal prison is no picnic either, I really don't see the difference as meaningful enough for the public to get bent out of shape over.

 

[Suddenly]

Which is a good thing, because the Feds can still bring these charges up any time if it ever looks like looks like some future crooked, white, "Good 'Ol Boy" Georgia governor ever looks like he might be considering pardons.

They can't. The right to a speedy trial is weak but it prevents holding criminal charges for years and years for tactical reasons.

The SOL matters more in situations where the state figures out years later that a crime occurred and/or who committed it and then charges the defendant. In those cases the government isn't being dilatory.

 

[Bob001]

....
I can also sympathize with Arbery's surviving family. Obviously they only want the worst for the three men who lynched their son, and their experience with law enforcement pencil-whipping away a murder investigation gives them good reason to be distrustful.

Federal prison is no picnic either, I really don't see the difference as meaningful enough for the public to get bent out of shape over.

The McMichaels likely see it as a safety issue. Maybe they see a prison full of fellow Georgians as a place where a lot of inmates would be looking for payback. In a federal prison across the country, they'd at least be less notorious.

I note that in addition to the hate crimes, they've also been charged with attempted kidnapping and gun crimes. Hate might be hard to prove, but I would think the kidnapping and gun charges would be slam dunks if they go to trial.

The three white men were each charged with one count of the hate crimes offense of interference with rights, which carries a maximum of life in prison.

Federal prosecutors also charged all three with attempted kidnapping. The McMichaels also face gun violations charges.

https://news.yahoo.com/federal-judge-rejects-hate-crime-212053422.html

 

[smartcooky]

I thought it was the younger McMichael that shared it under a fake profile in the neighborhood Facebook group, where it then got released to the media by someone in that group.

That's what happened AIUI.

This makes it all the more obvious that they really didn't believe what they did was wrong or would get them in any trouble. Their racism told them that lynching a ****** was just fine.