Cont: Jogging in Georgia while black - The Trial

[Darat]

One of the things I find most interesting about this case is the demonstration of witness fallibility. Bodycam video shows Roddie talking about what happened. He says repeatedly and confidently that when Arbery ran past the truck, Greg got out of the truck and was in front and was pointing his pistol at Arbery. When questioned about the details, he said he wasn't sure if he saw Greg get out of the truck or exactly what he did, but he did know that he saw Greg in front of the truck and saw him pointing his pistol at Arbery.

That didn't happen. We have video that shows that Greg was in the back of the truck the whole time. There is no reason for Roddie to lie about that. It is very strange that he had that false memory.

It isn't - our memories are - to sum it up as simply as possible - crap. That is why the gold standard is to take witness statements immediately and before the witness has had time to talk to other people by someone who is trained to not prompt a witness (albeit the interviewer is often unknowingly prompting). Even then precaution needs to be built into the investigative process to not overly rely on witness statements to direct an investigation.

 

[Shadowdweller]

*deleted*

 

[qayak]

Peripheral things I learned from the McMichael's trial.

1) Do not give a **** what your neighbors think about you because it'll make you do stupid things.

2) Don't record yourself killing anyone

3) If you're too ******* stupid for #2, be sure to delete any video after the fact. Destroy your phone, your friends phone, and any other digital format with it.

That's about it.

The thing about deleting video evidence is that it can help convict you. If a witness, or one of your moronic friends, mentions that there was a video but it was deleted from your phone, it is an admission that the video shows your guilt and you destroyed it to prevent it being seen. If it showed you were innocent you certainly wouldn't destroy it.

Any lawyer will tell you it's easier to explain away a video than it is the reason you destroyed evidence

 

[JoeMorgue]

The thing about deleting video evidence is that it can help convict you. If a witness, or one of your moronic friends, mentions that there was a video but it was deleted from your phone, it is an admission that the video shows your guilt and you destroyed it to prevent it being seen. If it showed you were innocent you certainly wouldn't destroy it.

Any lawyer will tell you it's easier to explain away a video than it is the reason you destroyed evidence

In ye' olden days I would have agree with you but in the post-fact world "You can't prove it" carries more weight than "Literally the only reason you'd destroy evidence is if you are guilty."

In this case absent the video not only do the murders walk free the trial never even happens.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Federal judge has rejected a federal plea deal that would have allowed the convicted father and son pair to serve their time in a federal prison, which is almost certainly better than a GA state prison.

A federal judge on Monday rejected the proposed plea agreements of Travis McMichael and Gregory McMichael, which would have admissions that their murder of Ahmaud Arbery was racially motivated.

Before the agreement was scuttled, the Arbery family passionately urged the court to reject the plea deal, which would have transferred them from state to a preferred federal custody for the first 30 years of their life sentences.

“Having considered all that was said today, and looking at the law that governs these agreements, it is my decision to reject the plea agreement in this case,” U.S. District Judge Lisa G. Wood said.

“I am not comfortable with accepting the terms of the plea agreement,” she added.

https://lawandcrime.com/live-trials/live-trials-current/ahmaud-arbery/i-am-not-comfortable-with-accepting-the-terms-federal-judge-rejects-plea-deal-in-civil-rights-case-of-ahmaud-arberys-convicted-murderers/

Arbery's family strongly opposed such a plea bargain and described it as a "back room deal" that would have allowed the convicted murders to serve their first 30 years in a federal prison of their preference.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Not really that surpised. Outside of "We would really whether you didn't call it that" they didn't have a legal argument and in a plea deal one side has to offer something, usually a quicker and less headache for everyone trial which... isn't this one.

 

[Bob001]

Federal judge has rejected a federal plea deal that would have allowed the convicted father and son pair to serve their time in a federal prison, which is almost certainly better than a GA state prison.
.....

Let me be sure I understand. They still stand convicted of state crimes and are sentenced to life. The issue is now whether they will accept a plea agreement on federal charges that would allow them to do their time in federal prison. Is that right? I'm not sure why the feds are even pursuing federal charges. They can't increase the Arberys' sentence, and there's always the possibility that they could lose at trial. Maybe the prosecutors should respond by dropping the charges in a way that allows them to be reinstated if the Arberys ever win a state appeal.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The point is to remind the Red states that even if they let the racists off, they aren't going to get off.

 

[bruto]

Let me be sure I understand. They still stand convicted of state crimes and are sentenced to life. The issue is now whether they will accept a plea agreement on federal charges that would allow them to do their time in federal prison. Is that right? I'm not sure why the feds are even pursuing federal charges. They can't increase the Arberys' sentence, and there's always the possibility that they could lose at trial. Maybe the prosecutors should respond by dropping the charges in a way that allows them to be reinstated if the Arberys ever win a state appeal.

I think Federal charges could actually extend time to anyone who has a chance of parole, since sentences can be consecutive. And it might also protect against appeal or pardon at the state level as well, though your proposal of keeping it open might suffice. But even if they lose at trial, I don't think it influences the state verdict.

 

[Suddenly]

Let me be sure I understand. They still stand convicted of state crimes and are sentenced to life. The issue is now whether they will accept a plea agreement on federal charges that would allow them to do their time in federal prison. Is that right? I'm not sure why the feds are even pursuing federal charges. They can't increase the Arberys' sentence, and there's always the possibility that they could lose at trial. Maybe the prosecutors should respond by dropping the charges in a way that allows them to be reinstated if the Arberys ever win a state appeal.

Speedy trial rights are a bit of a joke but not that big of a joke. That's the sort of thing they are meant to prevent.

Other than that, yeah. It's not all that uncommon for criminal defendants facing massive stretches of time to try to swing deals that get them in/out of the federal system if they think the federal system is better/worse than their state system.

It's kind of sick, really. This sort of thing gets distorted into the idea that doing time in a maximum security federal prison is any sort of pleasant at all just because some states manage to be worse.

 

[plague311]

There is no possibility for parole for anyone but Ronnie, if I remember correctly. So it's not like the Feds need to back that up. There's also no statute of limitations for the charges they're facing, so really no need to move forward at all.

Yes, Federal Prison would be a no-brainer for these guys. I would bet dimes to donuts that the Georgia state prison is fairly full of people with the same skin color as Arbery that are just itching to see these guys.

Prison's in general are nasty as ****, it really doesn't matter which one you go to, but from the people I've talked to Federal is better for a few reasons. 1) you don't have to stay in the state you were convicted in 2) Better food 3) more options with regards to items you can purchase while inside.

All things considered I'd prefer the Feds just drop it. They aren't going anywhere.

 

[JoeMorgue]

They are guilty.

So every time the question "Are they guilty" is asked we need the answer to be "Yes."

Verdicts mean something to the society, not just the people involved in the trial.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

They are guilty.

So every time the question "Are they guilty" is asked we need the answer to be "Yes."

Verdicts mean something to the society, not just the people involved in the trial.

Also, the hate-crime element was not explored in the state trial. It's an untested element of this murder that deserves an in-depth exploration, from his yelling of racial slurs after the fatal shots, his social media activity before and after the slaying, the confederate flag bumper sticket, etc.

They've already been found guilty in state court, there's very little reason for the prosecutor to hold back. Swing for the fences.

 

[plague311]

I'm certainly not going to argue with you guys. Minds don't change here.

If this is the win you guys, and others feel they need, then by all means go for it.

It doesn't make sense to me, but a ton of things don't make sense to me. Hope you guys get what you're looking for, even if what you want gives them a significantly easier time of it all.

Good luck.

 

[bruto]

My take on this is that it shouldn't make sense, but that does not mean it always doesn't. As long as the possibility exists, in the extremely strange and warped political climate, especially of Georgia, for a pardon or a mitigation of the sentence, there's something to be said for a Federal backup. And if a successful civil rights charge occurs, perhaps it would have an effect on other things, such as the readiness of state prosecutors to sweep stuff under the rug, or of state juries to minimize future sentences, or even of good-old-boys to take certain risks. It's all theoretical, and all ought, I think, to be unnecessary in a case like this, but I can see why some people might consider it useful. My house hasn't burned down yet, and it probably never will, but it's insured.

I'm glad at least that their Fed. prison plea deal fell through. I suspect that the atmosphere in a Georgia prison will be a little stressful.

 

[Warp12]

It's a rough situation for all of them, no doubt. Especially for the camera guy, as I suspect he had no idea that a murder was about to take place.

 

[smartcooky]

There is no possibility for parole for anyone but Ronnie, if I remember correctly. So it's not like the Feds need to back that up. There's also no statute of limitations for the charges they're facing, so really no need to move forward at all..

Which is a good thing, because the Feds can still bring these charges up any time if it ever looks like looks like some future crooked, white, "Good 'Ol Boy" Georgia governor ever looks like he might be considering pardons.

 

[bruto]

It's a rough situation for all of them, no doubt. Especially for the camera guy, as I suspect he had no idea that a murder was about to take place.

I haven't actually seen the video, or heard it, so pardon me if there's an answer forthcoming to this, but did the camera guy think, perhaps, of saying something to his murderous colleagues like "hey, don't do that?" Or do you suppose at some point in his participation it might have occurred to him that this was not going so well? It may be true that he did not go out intending murder, but to suggest he had no idea before it happened borders on that old conundrum that so often seems to occur in situations like this, where the excuse for inexcusable behavior is that he was dumb as a brick.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

I haven't actually seen the video, or heard it, so pardon me if there's an answer forthcoming to this, but did the camera guy think, perhaps, of saying something to his murderous colleagues like "hey, don't do that?" Or do you suppose at some point in his participation it might have occurred to him that this was not going so well? It may be true that he did not go out intending murder, but to suggest he had no idea before it happened borders on that old conundrum that so often seems to occur in situations like this, where the excuse for inexcusable behavior is that he was dumb as a brick.

He was in a different car. He was not in communication with the McMichaels. He did not know the McMichaels other than that they lived in the neighborhood. He had not seen the videos of Arbery in the construction site. He probably had heard the neighborhood rumors of thefts taking place and a black guy repeatedly trespassing on English's property. When he saw the McMichaels chasing a guy down the street and yelling at him to stop, he figured they had seen the guy do something wrong. His words were that he thought they had seen him shoot somebody. He joined in the chase to try to block the guy running away and keep him in the neighborhood. He was chasing Arbery when Arbery turned around and ran back toward the McMichaels. It wasn't until he came back around a bend that he saw Travis with the shotgun. At that point there was nothing he could do.

 

[smartcooky]

I haven't actually seen the video, or heard it, so pardon me if there's an answer forthcoming to this, but did the camera guy think, perhaps, of saying something to his murderous colleagues like "hey, don't do that?" Or do you suppose at some point in his participation it might have occurred to him that this was not going so well? It may be true that he did not go out intending murder, but to suggest he had no idea before it happened borders on that old conundrum that so often seems to occur in situations like this, where the excuse for inexcusable behavior is that he was dumb as a brick.

I have no sympathy for William Bryan (camera guy). He voluntarily got himself involved in something that had nothing to do with him. As soon as it reached the point where he was hitting someone with his vehicle, it was time to immediately discontinue his involvement.

I have four words for Mr Bryan... "don't be a vigilante"