Joe the Plumber jumps the shark

[leftysergeant]

Left wing yes socialist no.

So there exists left wing capitalism (outside of corrupt mobsters in bed with politicians)?

It's really quite the thing in the Scandinavian countries. The only purely right-wing capitalist nation in Europe, which had drunk a deep draught of the Friedmanite koolaid, just went utterly bankrupt.

 

[XBoxWarrior]

So there exists left wing capitalism (outside of corrupt mobsters in bed with politicians)?

Absolutely! Have you never bought some weed?

 

[Nogbad]

Progressive taxation is socialist?

Perhaps but a more common name is 'fair'

 

[shecky]

A progressive tax system is socialist, regardless of whether it's good or not, and regardless of whether the opinion-maker is a billionaire or dirt grindingly poor.

All taxes are socialist to some degree. But I think you'd have a hard time convincing the world that a progressive tax scheme, an idea that goes back to at least Adam Smith (of all people), is particularly socialist or new to the US.

The problem with the charge is that it is so watered down that it means nothing. The spectrum of socialism runs too wide. WildCat, in another thread, argues that public ownership of resources isn't socialism. I'm sure Shanek (what ever happened to him?) would disagree. This is why Joe the Plumber's attack is stupid. It was simply hot button codeword for a system that's been in place for decades, and that McCain doesn't even want to abolish.

Then again, if this point has to be explained, the argument was either made out of ignorance or likely not made in good faith to begin with.

 

[T.A.M.]

This far right wing attitude of "every man for himself, sing or swim, survival of the fittest", that cringes as the very idea of govt helping out the less fortunate, or GOD FORBID, a check for a few hundred dollars, go to someone who didn't pay income tax, really seems, anti-christian in nature.

Love thy neighbour, due onto others as you would....

Or is suppose to be up to the individual whether he or she decides to give a handout to the less fortunate or not? Not governments??

TAM

 

[mhaze]

This far right wing attitude of "every man for himself, sing or swim, survival of the fittest", that cringes as the very idea of govt helping out the less fortunate, or GOD FORBID, a check for a few hundred dollars, go to someone who didn't pay income tax, really seems, anti-christian in nature.

Love thy neighbour, due onto others as you would....

Or is suppose to be up to the individual whether he or she decides to give a handout to the less fortunate or not? Not governments??

TAM

I suppose it's another "far right idea" that money sent to a government is poorly, ineffectively, and haphazardly spent? That the alleged and promised goals, when the requests to the public are made, are betrayed by the fine print of the law finally written?

Ever heard of earmarks?

 

[geni]

Left wing yes socialist no.

So there exists left wing capitalism (outside of corrupt mobsters in bed with politicians)?

Very much so. In it's most extream form the standard business construct would be a workers cooperative. Still have a free market economy with lots of competition. The banking sector would be somewhat weird mind. Less extreme versions you accept that things like the armed forces should be goverment run.

Another aproach is to set up a system with strong (althogh idealy well controlled) unions.

 

[geni]

I suppose it's another "far right idea" that money sent to a government is poorly, ineffectively, and haphazardly spent?

Compared to the average canal building company yes (heh Exchequer Bill Loan Commission was probably one of the few people who actualy managed to make money out of the Gloucester and Sharpness Canal).

That the alleged and promised goals, when the requests to the public are made, are betrayed by the fine print of the law finally written?

That suggests that the effects of the fine print of the law are deliberate.

Ever heard of earmarks?

Heh compared to the things CEOs can pull off?

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Ok, I was in Crawford, TX back in '05, with Cindy. Sure she had her moments, but she actually lost her son in Iraq. She wasn't lying about anything, she was mad at Bush, and she let it be known.

"Joe the Plumber" is nothing but an opportunist...oh, and a ******* liar.

The comparison holds no water.{snip mod box}

You took the context of antics wrong. I wasn't referring to Camp Casey and her sincere activism in that time frame. I was referring to some of her activities in '06 and '07 (before she dropped off my radar) where it appeared she was taking herself too seriously and being used by some of her advisors and handlers. It seemed to me the more she was in the spotlight the more she was in over her head.

I see the same thing happening with JtP, just for different ends and with different people.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Progressive taxation is socialist?

Perhaps but a more common name is 'fair'

Actually, here in Bizzaroworld, fair tax means flat or consumption based tax.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

So there exists left wing capitalism...?

You got a Nokia phone?

 

[T.A.M.]

I suppose it's another "far right idea" that money sent to a government is poorly, ineffectively, and haphazardly spent? That the alleged and promised goals, when the requests to the public are made, are betrayed by the fine print of the law finally written?

Ever heard of earmarks?

No, I have no problem with being critical of, and reducing where possible, useless earmarks.

That was not my point. My point is that we as a society, the USA, Canada, other civilized, first world countries, should strive to see our poverty minimized, our less fortunate aided, our disenfranchised given a hand up...

Not a "dog eat dog, **** you if you can't keep up, each to their own, sink or swim, survival of the fittest and **** the rest" SOCIETY.

TAM

 

[pgwenthold]

That was not my point. My point is that we as a society, the USA, Canada, other civilized, first world countries, should strive to see our poverty minimized, our less fortunate aided, our disenfranchised given a hand up...

Not a "dog eat dog, **** you if you can't keep up, each to their own, sink or swim, survival of the fittest and **** the rest" SOCIETY.

You'd almost think that would be the theme of a campaign that advertises "Country First"?

I lamented in another thread, why do the same people who support McCain and his "Country First" campaign insist that they need to have their taxes cut? "Country First" and "It's all about me!!!!" seem to be contradictory goals

 

[daredelvis]

I wish we could get a common defination of the word "Socialism" around here.
Someone said that the US Government charging Private Companies a fee for mining on Federal Land is "Socialist".
I don't think that is what 90% of the people who use the word mean by Socialism.
I agree that I think the Government has got to totally dominate the economy by actually owning and running most big industries before you can call it Socialist as most people use the term.

There are some people who believe that the US Government owning land is Socialist.

Daredelvis

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Does he really think he's getting any traction this way?

Unfortunately, I do think so. He's emulating the worst of Dubya's misinformation campaigns where if you repeat an egregious lie often enough a substantial part of the public will buy it.

The egregious lie is that there is a blue-collar worker who will be adversely affected by the Obama tax plan.

I've seen (here in MO) a TV ad where he has people from all sorts of different professions say, "I'm Joe the Plumber" (or variations of it), as if each of them would also have their aspirations thwarted by the Obama tax plan.

The message is, people whose incomes are high enough to be hit by a tax increase are just regular working folk, and Obama wants to take their hard-earned money and give it to the poor. And it's a lie.

People who make the kind of money where they'll be significantly affected by higher taxes have enough money that they will not be hurting--not the way people who work and live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to keep their heads above the water are hurting.

 

[pgwenthold]

I live in one of these new-fangled battleground states, so we are getting bombarded with campaign ads, particularly from Obama. There was one the other night that actually made my wife and me take notice. It was really simple. It says, "If you are a nurse making $40 000 a year, how will you be affected? In Obama's plan, your taxes will decrease by $1000 a year. In McCain's plan? Only $120."

It was none of this fuzzy "Joe the plumber's taxes will go up!!!!"

It was, "If you are making this much, your taxes will go down more"

No hiding the fact that Joe the Plumber claims to be able to make $250K or any of that. It was a realistic salary that others can relate to. Joe the fictional plumber is no longer relevant.

 

[Philip]

I'd hate to have my background investigated and to become an object of ridicule just for asking a politician a question.

That happened to Joe even before he started milking his fame and being used by the McCain campaign.

 

[DavidJames]

I'd hate to have my background investigated and to become an object of ridicule just for asking a politician a question.

That happened to Joe even before he started milking his fame and being used by the McCain campaign.

Do you have evidence that Joe had his background investigated before McCain began using Joe (third debate)?

 

[MattusMaximus]

I'd hate to have my background investigated and to become an object of ridicule just for asking a politician a question.

That happened to Joe even before he started milking his fame and being used by the McCain campaign.

I think it's the other way around. I think Joe saw an opportunity when the desperation of the McCain campaign and GOP in general became apparent to him. He struck while the iron was hot, and now he is the one milking it for all it's worth. He knows he doesn't have anything to lose, and everything to gain.

After all, he's supposed to have a book deal and a country album in the works out of this new found fame on the right. And I expect that he'll be a darling of the right-wing radio shows and Fox News commentaries for quite some time to come. The dude is set, and I think he knows it.

So, you have to think, who is using whom?

 

[Puppycow]

I'd hate to have my background investigated and to become an object of ridicule just for asking a politician a question.

That happened to Joe even before he started milking his fame and being used by the McCain campaign.

1) He didn't just "ask a question." He made some claims too. He was seeking attention and he got it. People checked those claims. And McCain is the one who thrust him into the spotlight. So McCain caused him to have his background investigated.

2) He sure isn't acting like someone who wants to go back to obscurity. So at this point he's fair game like any other attention-seeker.

Joe was recently a guest on Fox News