JFK's assassination: your thoughts

[Jetblast]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm of the opinion that Shaw, having a bunch of different things going on in different circles. might be just the type of guy that the CIA would like to talk to from time to time, but I don't see Shaw as any type of covert operator, and for sure not a "hey, let's shoot JFK!" type of guy.

Read Michael Collins Piper. He shows that Shaw was a prodigy and was the only American allowed into British Military Intelligence in Italy during WWII. Shaw worked with Angleton during this OSS service.

Your response is laughable considering how these credentials condition his membership in Permindex, New Orleans, and Dallas.

Shaw perjured himself at Garrison's trial when he denied being CIA. He was obviously deep CIA. Garrison had the right man.

Shaw was hanging out with David Ferrie, a CIA pilot whom Garrison discovered went to Texas the day of the assassination. Most likely to offer piloting services for the escaping assassins. CIA murdered Ferrie once Garrison subpoena'ed him.

 

[JayUtah]

Scroll down and read 'Strange Evidence'. There were 2 Remington cases and 2 Western Cartridge. There were 3 Western Cartridge bullets and 1 Remington taken out of Tippit's body.

Already discussed at length in this thread, which you haven't read.

 

[JayUtah]

Read DiEugenio. The bullets found in Tippit's body didn't match the shell casings.

No, they didn't match DiEugenio's uninformed expectations. You won't get very far using these wannabe pseuod-investigators as your source.

 

[Ranb]

Scroll down and read 'Strange Evidence'. There were 2 Remington cases and 2 Western Cartridge. There were 3 Western Cartridge bullets and 1 Remington taken out of Tippit's body.
http://www.ctka.net/pr198-jfk.html

That article should be called strange claims. Not a single piece of evidence in it. Got photos of the expended brass to support the claims made in the article? Nothing strange about using two different brands of ammo in a gun at the same time. I have done that at times. Was he using remanufactured ammunition?

 

[BStrong]

My mistake, but it doesn't change anything.

If you read Gil Jesus he has found serious problems with the rifle. DiEugenio said they never cashed the money order. It was never stamped. While ordering the 36 inch Carcano model Oswald received the 40 inch model. Highly unlikely seeing how they were considered 2 different rifles. Also, the shipping weight for the 100 rifle stock order on the invoice from Lipschultz Shipping conformed to 100 36 inch rifles.


It remains true that CIA was the biggest orderer of that ammunition in the US.


Oswald was in the lunch room and never fired a shot as his virgin clean paraffin test showed at the Dallas Police station.

The paraffin test is not a conclusive finding.

The reason that the test isn't used and hasn't been used for quite some time is that it's not a relaible, and this was a known defect in the test even before the JFK assassination.

You can get both false positives and false negatives:

http://scholarship.law.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2849&context=mulr

FALLIBLE NATURE OF THE TEST

If we are looking for a chemical test for gunpowder residues which
is 100 percent infallible, we have none at the present time.21 While
present day chemical tests for gunpowder residues are based on Locard's
"Exchange Principle" and upon the premise that the hand of a
person firing a revolver will have gunpowder residues on it after firing
a gun, as Dr. Mathews points out, this assumption may or may not be valid:

In the case of rifles and shotguns neither hand is ordinarily
in a position to receive anything from the force of the explosion.
In the case of revolvers and pistols there are many situations
where the hand will not receive any nitrates (or nitrites) from
the explosion. If a revolver is well made, and pertinent tolerances
are at minimum, the amount of gas escape will be negligible.
Often in the less well-made revolvers there is sufficient
clearance and looseness of fit of the cartridge to allow the 'passage'
of gas necessary to produce powder staining on the hand.

 

[Jetblast]

You've never read about errors in firearms record keeping before? It is not that unusual. Check Bullseye Shooting Supply in Tacoma and their problems related to the DC sniper. Ordering a rifle with a 36" barrel and getting the wrong one? Big deal. Mistakes happen all the time.

Sure, except researchers discovered the 100 lot order Klein's received from the wholesaler. Lipschultz Shipping recorded the weight of the 100 carton case and it came in at the weight for 100 36 inch models. This lot contained Oswald's alleged CE2766 serial number rifle. Also, the 36 and 40 inch rifles had different serial numbers on their order forms.

Did the DC Sniper have his money order unexplainably unprocessed and unstamped by the bank?

Why do you expect this test to be reliable enough to prove or disprove that a rifle was fired by the suspect?

Because we could demand that the CE2766 rifle be released to the people for further testing. The Carcano was a mass produced, poorly machined rifle. FBI Agent Turner was upset with the testing so he got a Carcano and tested it on 7 FBI volunteers. 7 out of 7 tested positive for heavy nitrate deposition after firing the Carcano. You very simply couldn't fire that rifle without getting serious gunpowder residue on your cheek in any honest, non-FBI test.

 

[Jetblast]

The paraffin test is not a conclusive finding.

Then you would have no problem with the US public demanding the release and testing of the CE2766 Carcano in the US National Archives?

 

[BStrong]

Read Michael Collins Piper. He shows that Shaw was a prodigy and was the only American allowed into British Military Intelligence in Italy during WWII. Shaw worked with Angleton during this OSS service.

Your response is laughable considering how these credentials condition his membership in Permindex, New Orleans, and Dallas.

Shaw perjured himself at Garrison's trial when he denied being CIA. He was obviously deep CIA. Garrison had the right man.

Shaw was hanging out with David Ferrie, a CIA pilot whom Garrison discovered went to Texas the day of the assassination. Most likely to offer piloting services for the escaping assassins. CIA murdered Ferrie once Garrison subpoena'ed him.

The same guy that asserts Permindex was a covert op to assist Israeli weapons dealers and their nuke program?

JB, I begining to think that you're the poster that never met a CT he didn't like.

 

[Jetblast]

That article should be called strange claims. Not a single piece of evidence in it. Got photos of the expended brass to support the claims made in the article? Nothing strange about using two different brands of ammo in a gun at the same time. I have done that at times. Was he using remanufactured ammunition?

Two .38 Remington-Peters and two .38 Winchester-Western hulls were found. But only one Remington-Peters slug and three Winchester-Western slugs were removed from Tippit's body.

You're in contempt of the evidence and can't answer the points.

 

[BStrong]

Then you would have no problem with the US public demanding the release and testing of the CE2766 Carcano in the US National Archives?

Absolutely, I think there's a website that allows people to petition the White House.

Have at it.

 

[Jetblast]

The same guy that asserts Permindex was a covert op to assist Israeli weapons dealers and their nuke program?

JB, I begining to think that you're the poster that never met a CT he didn't like.

Don't switch the subject.


Besides you're forgetting Israel recognized Tibor Rosenbaum (and Angleton) for doing exactly that.


Permindex was kicked out of Italy because the Italian government was unable to find where it got its funding (CIA). Shaw was on its board. You're not answering the point.

 

[BStrong]

Sure, except researchers discovered the 100 lot order Klein's received from the wholesaler. Lipschultz Shipping recorded the weight of the 100 carton case and it came in at the weight for 100 36 inch models. This lot contained Oswald's alleged CE2766 serial number rifle. Also, the 36 and 40 inch rifles had different serial numbers on their order forms.

Did the DC Sniper have his money order unexplainably unprocessed and unstamped by the bank?

Because we could demand that the CE2766 rifle be released to the people for further testing. The Carcano was a mass produced, poorly machined rifle. FBI Agent Turner was upset with the testing so he got a Carcano and tested it on 7 FBI volunteers. 7 out of 7 tested positive for heavy nitrate deposition after firing the Carcano. You very simply couldn't fire that rifle without getting serious gunpowder residue on your cheek in any honest, non-FBI test.

Not so much. from the WC:

CUNNINGHAM: Yes.
We fired the rifle. Mr. Killion fired it three times rapidly, using similar ammunition to that used in the assassination. We reran the tests both on the cheek and both hands. This time we got a negative reaction on all casts.

EISENBERG: So to recapitulate, after firing the rifle rapid-fire no residues of any nitrate were picked off Mr. Killion's cheek?

CUNNINGHAM: That is correct, and there were none on the hands. We cleaned off the rifle again with dilute HCl. I loaded it for him. He held it in one of the cleaned areas and I pushed the clip in so he would not have to get his hands near the chamber—in other words, so he wouldn’t pick up residues, from it, or from the action, or from the receiver. When we ran the casts, we got no reaction on either hand or on his cheek. On the controls, when he hadn't fired a gun all day, we got numerous reactions.
and further:

EISENBERG: A paraffin test was also run of Oswald's cheek and it produced a negative result.

CUNNINGHAM: Yes.

EISENBERG: Do your tests, or do the tests which you ran, or your experience with revolvers and rifles, cast any light on the significance of a negative result being obtained on the right cheek?

CUNNINGHAM: No, sir; I personally wouldn’t expect to find any residues on a person's right cheek after firing a rifle due to the fact that by the very principles and the manufacture and the action, the cartridge itself is sealed into the chamber by the bolt being closed behind it, and upon firing the case, the cartridge case expands into the chamber filling it up and sealing it off from the gases, so none will come back in your face, and so by its very nature, I would not expect to find residue on the right cheek of a shooter.

 

[Jetblast]

Interesting.

I have no problem imagining that there would be a use for standard WWII service rifle calibers (30/06, 8mm Mauser, .303 British) for proxy wars and arming various groups, but nobody other than the WWII Italian military adopted the 6.5 or the Carcano and even the Italians themselves immediately adopted the 30/06 after the war, and Beretta was turning out M1 Garand rifles as soon as they got their facilities up and running.

The Italians went alnog with the US and NATO in adopting the 7.62 x 51 NATO round, and have adopted the 5.56mm as well.

So where was this great demand for 6.5 x 52 and who was using the Carcano?

CIA took interest in the Carcano stock because it was dirt cheap mass surplus that could be directed to Cuba. Italy was looking to unload them cheap before they became worthless. It could be hidden in CIA budgets.


CIA had this rifle on their radar when they directed it into Oswald's hands.

 

[BStrong]

Don't switch the subject.


Besides you're forgetting Israel recognized Tibor Rosenbaum (and Angleton) for doing exactly that.


Permindex was kicked out of Italy because the Italian government was unable to find where it got its funding (CIA). Shaw was on its board. You're not answering the point.

Hey, if you're not answering questions put to you, why would a reasonable individual expect anyone else to not act in a similar fashion?

You're playing connect the dots, but you don't want to explain any of the science behind your connecting, other than to point at a book written by somebody that you wish to believe.

None of us are obligated to believe the baloney that they're selling and you're promoting.

 

[Ranb]

Because we could demand that the CE2766 rifle be released to the people for further testing. The Carcano was a mass produced, poorly machined rifle.

I agree. I have a rifle that is nearly the same as the one Oswald supposively used. It is a piece of crap to be sure. But with a tiny amount of oil on the bolt the action is slick and fast. The bore in my rifle is black and pitted, but accurate enough to hit a six inch target at 100 yards with ease. There is no reason why a person (especially a former Marine) could not use that kind of rifle for the easy shots made at Dealey Plaza that day.

FBI Agent Turner was upset with the testing so he got a Carcano and tested it on 7 FBI volunteers. 7 out of 7 tested positive for heavy nitrate deposition after firing the Carcano. You very simply couldn't fire that rifle without getting serious gunpowder residue on your cheek in any honest, non-FBI test.

I can't find any data on those tests. Did he perform the tests on the subjects prior to firing the test rifle to ensure they didn't have nitrates on their skin prior to shooting? Why would anyone expect to see nitrates on the face of a shooter using a bolt action rifle? All of the gases go out the muzzle end unless the action is bad and the brass doesn't seal properly.

 

[Jetblast]

Not so much. from the WC:

CUNNINGHAM:

Cunningham was hired by FBI to get around the obvious conclusions from Oswald's paraffin test. They doctored those tests. Honest FBI agent Turner got pissed that they were committing a fraud so he went and got a Carcano and tested it on 7 FBI agents. They all came up heavy on their paraffin tests.


If tested honestly CE2766 would too. This was a CIA coup. It wasn't difficult for Cunningham to do that.

 

[BStrong]

CIA took interest in the Carcano stock because it was dirt cheap mass surplus that could be directed to Cuba. Italy was looking to unload them cheap before they became worthless. It could be hidden in CIA budgets.


CIA had this rifle on their radar when they directed it into Oswald's hands.

We shipped Garands, Springfields, Thompsons and BAR's and BMG's to Cuba - Show me one photo of a 2506 Brigade troop or a Cuban Army troop or one of the 26 of July Movement troop w/ a Carcano in hand.

 

[Ranb]

CIA took interest in the Carcano stock because it was dirt cheap mass surplus that could be directed to Cuba. Italy was looking to unload them cheap before they became worthless. It could be hidden in CIA budgets.


CIA had this rifle on their radar when they directed it into Oswald's hands.

Which CIA officer told you this stuff?

 

[JayUtah]

The Carcano was a mass produced, poorly machined rifle.

If that were true, at best it would indicate only an inconsistent behavior among different examples of the rifle, not behavior invariably consistent with your presumption. Begging the question.

FBI Agent Turner was upset with the testing so he got a Carcano and tested it on 7 FBI volunteers. 7 out of 7 tested positive for heavy nitrate deposition after firing the Carcano.

No. First, you misrepresent the nature of the alleged findings, and you attribute the tests to the wrong person.

William Turner did not report having performed any tests himself. Agent Turner merely reported a conversation with Vincent Guinn in which he reported that Guinn had conducted tests with "similar rifles." Those rifles were not known to be Mannlicher-Carcanos. At best this is hearsay.

The FBI tests you might be more interested in where those specifically conducted under controlled scientific conditions to determine the reliability of paraffin tests. The FBI testing showed that paraffin tests produced both false positive and false negative results. Oswald's cheek test was negative, but his hand tests were positive.

No matter how you tap dance and beg the question, paraffin tests for powder residue are not conclusive.

You very simply couldn't fire that rifle without getting serious gunpowder residue on your cheek in any honest, non-FBI test.

I'm confused. You seem to be saying that we must have a "non-FBI" test in order to achieve honest results. But you yourself just tried to tell us that we need to somehow account for tests allegedly performed by FBI agent William Turner. Why the double standard? If the FBI tests seem to support your point you accept them as authoritative. But then you categorically reject any other FBI test as apparently tainted.

 

[JayUtah]

You're in contempt of the evidence and can't answer the points.

We answered these points long before you even showed up in this thread. You're way, way behind the times. Why do you think we aren't familiar with the standard, decades-old conspiracy claims?