It was weird to be a pro-war Liberal

[bikerdruid]

Chomsky despises liberals. He thinks they're dupes. You have to remember that Chomsky sees little difference between liberal democratic governments and Nazism.

are you incapable of other than hyperbole, and wild unsubstantiated generalizations?

 

[Humes fork]

Well, you have classical liberalism which tends to be of the Lockean/Founding Fathers type that goes in for freedoms to do what you want, say what you like, practice the religion that you like etc...

Then you have social liberalism of the Rawlsian kind in which some kind of compromise between freedom to do what you like has to be balanced with certain provisions to ensure that everyone has a relatively equal chance of enjoying those freedoms.

Yeah, this is the European definition and division, but from what I know, it is different in the US. American liberals tend to be quite fond of social democracy. In Europe, liberalism is not another word for social democracy.

Chomsky is opposed to both kinds as they tend to affirm the owning of private property and in the latter case to merely temper capitalism. In the former case liberalism is seen by many Chomskians as giving free reign to big business which he considers a bad thing.

I thought Chomsky complained about Nixon being the last liberal president.

This is all a bit of a diversion from Travis' OP though so you might be better off confining this discussion to the thread you started on the use of the term liberalism in the US.

Ok I'll try to.

 

[Toontown]

Well, it's not about making them into a clone of yourself. The idea is to bring things like representative democracy and the rule of law to them. Stabilize the place and set up the infrastructure for education and equal rights.



Somewhat less likely. I would still want just wars but I would now need assurances that the whole thing will be administrated well. Now I was not a naive fool all the way with Iraq. I did figure on us being there for six to ten years.



Iran
North Korea
Sudan
Sierra Leone
Cameroon
Zimbabwe
Burma

Well...maybe we shouldn't be THAT pro-war. That's a lot of hellholes. Any soldier or marine with a combat MOS would be horrified by that list.

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if the Chinese would agree to come along with us (and promise to leave nicely when the hellhole has been sufficiently whipped into shape). But all by our lonesome? All those hellholes? We haven't had that spirit here since 1945.

 

[Nasty Neil]

Hi Travis,

The reason you were in support of the Iraq War was is because you are one of the far too few few liberals who actually use their brain!

So you'll know who is saying this, I'm a Agnostic Atheist Activist whose has been a Atheist for 68 of my 77 years and an Atheist Activist for over half a century.

As I've lived in more places, had many more professions and done more varied types of things than most ever come any where close to doing, I'm also much more experienced than are most who are my age.

And I have a "Gifted Level' IQ which tests prove I use nearly double as effectively as most people use their intelligence. Plus, I can provide references from people I have known for over 50 yrs. who will attest I'm one of the most truthful people they have ever known,

And as nearly always I reseacrh things to assure I have sufficent facts to back me up, the odds of my being logically and/or factually proven to be wrong are about zero.

OK, now for the "meat" of this post.

First, in 2003, I made of list of 17 reasons the Iraq War is Fully Justified which I will send to anyone who wants to waste their time attempting to prove me wrong OR who just want to read them. E-mail me at: [email protected]

Second, while I wrote the following "copy and paste" email many years ago, it still applies AND, it WILL ALWAYS apply.

--------------

As all who have been getting my e-mails for years know,I care less what others say UNLESS they can provide either Logical, or Factual proof what I say is not true.

In 1999, I wrote the following response to someone who was against our stopping the Genocide in Kosovo.

It was TRUE when I wrote it,

It IS True today, and, IT WILL ALWAYS be TRUE.

EVIL WINS WHEN GOOD PEOPLE DO NOT STOP IT!

In the movie, "Clear and Present Danger" some one said to Harrison Ford:

"Your views are always white or black"

To which he replied,

"No, it is about RIGHT and WRONG!"

--------------

The following is from the single greatest American orator, who was also a leading Atheist, Robert Green Ingersoll.

"The superior man is the providence of the inferior. He is eyes for the blind, strength for the weak, a shield for the defenseless. He stands erect by bending above the fallen. He rises by lifting others."

-----------

Yes, it would be really great if we could, as Rodney King said, "All get along."
***
Only those of us who live in the REAL world, know Good People MUST protect Weak People from the Bad People.

( And FYI, I just to not "talk" about taking action to stop wrong as I have been doing it since at least the fifth grade! And I have done it many times since. In fact, I just stopped the Eighth crime in progress I have stopped a few weeks ago at age 77.)

Be it criminals, the KKK, Hitler, Saddam or the Serbs who are led by the Butcher of Bucharest!

It is ALL about RIGHT and WRONG!

People are either for what is RIGHT, or they are for what is WRONG!

PERIOD! *

END OF STORY!

People are either For what is GOOD OR they are For what is EVIL!

THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND!

------**

I'm about truth, knowledge, logic, honesty, Right and Wrong. This is where I have been all or my life it is where I am now, and it is where I will always be!

-----

While this was written to an anti-war puke during the mass genocide of Moslems in Kosovo, it applies to Afghanistan and Iraq as well.

Truly CIVILIZED people do not let bullies beat, torture and kill others.

It makes no difference if it's in your home or across the street, across nation or the ocean. * It makes no difference if it is a criminal or a criminal government who is doing the beating, raping, torturing and killing others.

And it makes NO difference who is being beaten, tortured or killed. They can be Men or Woman , Adults or Kids, Atheists or Religious, Straight or Gay, Black, Red, Brown, Yellow or White.

IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHO!

ANY AND ALL innocent people should be protected from the bullies who pray upon them!

UN-civilized people DO NOT CARE!

They are Low-Life, Double Standard Hypocrites who want to be protected from the actions of bullies and yet, they do not care if others are not protected.

Those against the actions of the US, UN, NATO are just plain UN-CIVILIZED!

I pity the un-civilized, brain-dead, selfish troglodytes who are against those who protect others who need it for they are both un-thinking and selfish!

And the exact same thing applies to those who were, and are, against our liberating the people of Iraq.

They are simply an un-civilized, un-caring, un-just, un-fair and non-compassionate people who have No Honor, NO Integrity NO Ethics and NO Morals.

-----------------*

Those against America's actions in Kosovo and in all other wars of a similar type should honestly ask themselves:

"If it was MY LOVED ONES the Serbs were doing to what they are doing the non-Serbs living there, would I still be against what NATO is doing?"

If NO, I submit you should re-evaluate
your position.

If you can Honestly answer YES, then I can only hope I NEVER become one of YOUR loved ones nor am I interested in being a friend of yours as yon have none of the attributes decent people have! *
Thanks for your time.

Please, Take Care!

Neil

 

[Caper]

I am pretty right wing and I thought it was a pretty bad idea. Kind of like Robert Novak. We'll never know what would have happened. I will say... It made for some great tv. And maybe that is why I am for war with Iran... The great TV.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Am I the only one who finds the "pro-war" label to be a strawman?

 

[Nasty Neil]

Yes, I AM PRO JUST WARS as are ALL Rational, Highly Intelligent and Logical people! (Does this leave you out? perhaps so.)

I am also PRO Law enforcment, PRO Fire Departments and PRO having a logical, rational brain.

 

[Nasty Neil]

Kthulhut Fhtagn

Opps, MY error!

I thought your response was to me and not to the first post is this thread.

I am sorry and I apologize to you.

"Nasty Neil"

 

[Dragoonster]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I don't recall your history...but:

Travis, you seem to have desired quite a lot of military action around the world, and I'm wondering if you yourself would actually volunteer to serve in the military for this. Maybe you've already served, don't remember. But my thought is that if these interventions are so important to you, surely you should've volunteered for the past interventions you supported.

If you didn't, and preferred to stay in the US and watch others fight wars but not risk your own life, I really have to question just how important/pressing these interventions were.

 

[angrysoba]

Am I the only one who finds the "pro-war" label to be a strawman?

I don't think so. Travis self-identifies as "pro-war".

 

[Nasty Neil]

Well Dragoonster,

Maybe you are not trying to be a dick only is seems you may be as a persons position on being pro war has nothing to do with IF they have, are, or would serve in our Military

Rather it has to do if they know the difference between Good and Evil, Right and Wrong and in DOING THE RIGHT THING!

It seems Travis DOES know.

FYI, I not only served for nearly ten years with most of my active duty time being a paratrooper in the 101st Airborne. I know the difference between Good and Evil and in Doing the Right Thing. And out if the Military, I have also repeatedly risked my life for others.

FYI, the Iraq War is FULLY Justified! (See my previous and first post in this thread)

Last, in my view, those who CAN serve in our military, who then do not, and then make negative comments about the military or about the wars we are in, are parasitic leaches living in the freedom myself & others who are or have served, provided for them.

 

[Travis]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, and I don't recall your history...but:

Travis, you seem to have desired quite a lot of military action around the world, and I'm wondering if you yourself would actually volunteer to serve in the military for this. Maybe you've already served, don't remember. But my thought is that if these interventions are so important to you, surely you should've volunteered for the past interventions you supported.

If you didn't, and preferred to stay in the US and watch others fight wars but not risk your own life, I really have to question just how important/pressing these interventions were.

I signed up for the Army in 1998 and was turned away for medical reasons. Which is too bad as I had wanted to become a combat engineer. Though that probably means I would have ended up becoming a pile of minced meat next to an Iraqi highway thanks to some IED. So maybe it turned out for the best.

I don't think so. Travis self-identifies as "pro-war".

I feel very few people are objectively "pro-war" they are simply people who were in favor of a particular war within a particular context.

If I had to do it over again I would have preferred us to go into Iran instead of Iraq.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocaust

i understand the principle os roman central heating.
indoor heating, however, began when our first ancestor lit a fire in their cave.

Or maybe you're just a Hypocaust Denier?



Oh ya... I went there.

 

[Nasty Neil]

Hey Travis,

Since it seems you do not know why the Iraq War is FULLY Justified, don't you email me for my 17 Facts which PROVE why it is?

[email protected]

(Plus a ground war with Iran would be stupid.)

Nasty Neil
AIRBORNE!

 

[Dragoonster]

Well Dragoonster,

Maybe you are not trying to be a dick only is seems you may be as a persons position on being pro war has nothing to do with IF they have, are, or would serve in our Military

Rather it has to do if they know the difference between Good and Evil, Right and Wrong and in DOING THE RIGHT THING!

It seems Travis DOES know.

FYI, I not only served for nearly ten years with most of my active duty time being a paratrooper in the 101st Airborne. I know the difference between Good and Evil and in Doing the Right Thing. And out if the Military, I have also repeatedly risked my life for others.

That's all well and good, and thanks for your service. But I also think I know the difference between Good and Evil. And I'd estimate I find 40+ current countries doing Evil. It's quite a task to war with them though, and as an American I have to weigh our own risk, including the lives of our troops, and future blowback considering the incompetent warwaging of our leaders against that. Do you advocate that we should go to war with several dozen countries?

FYI, the Iraq War is FULLY Justified! (See my previous and first post in this thread)

I'm pro-just wars too, except "just" in my mind includes either a serious threat to my country, or truly outrageous genocide. Iraq fit neither imo.

Last, in my view, those who CAN serve in our military, who then do not, and then make negative comments about the military or about the wars we are in, are parasitic leaches living in the freedom myself & others who are or have served, provided for them.

Er, look, again I don't want to be a dick to Travis. But how about those who CAN serve in our military, who then do not, then make positive comments about warmongering? That is--just what calculus in your mind gives Americans the right to support or disparage military intervention? And...can you fathom that I, as a non-military person, can still care about the lives and families of those who serve? I sure as hell hope any serviceman who dies in foreign wars is doing it for a crucial goal. I don't think that's happened for 70 years.

And as for why I didn't serve in our military, I nearly signed up around '90, but had qualms about why/when our military would war. I don't think I'm a parasite at all if I reckoned that being in the military would've meant killing people who weren't a threat to me, mine, our way of life, etc. If a real serious WWIII that threatened our homeland were to present itself, I'd sign up. So far it hasn't.

 

[Nasty Neil]

Hey Travis,

Two things

1, Just WHO is ignorant of the 911 Facts? I sure as hell am NOT!

2. Since it seems you do not know why the Iraq War is FULLY Justified, WHY don't you email me for my 17 Facts which PROVE why it is?

[email protected]

(Plus a ground war with Iran would be stupid.)

Nasty Neil
AIRBORNE!

 

[Dragoonster]

I signed up for the Army in 1998 and was turned away for medical reasons. Which is too bad as I had wanted to become a combat engineer. Though that probably means I would have ended up becoming a pile of minced meat next to an Iraqi highway thanks to some IED. So maybe it turned out for the best.

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you're still with us.

I feel very few people are objectively "pro-war" they are simply people who were in favor of a particular war within a particular context.

If I had to do it over again I would have preferred us to go into Iran instead of Iraq.

I think that would've been 10 times as brutal even compared to our current Iraq woes. And it will still be 10 times as brutal if we do so in a year or so, as we've learned absolutely nothing about occupation (plus Iran is very formidable and we may not have enough troops to even initially occupy the country).

Plus, even with Hezbollah, Iran has committed far less atrocities than Iraq did. And they haven't started a war in centuries, no matter their rhetoric. Iraq truly was a belligerant. Plus plus, we've gone into Iran before when we overthrew Mossadeq. The eventual reaction was a despotic theocratic regime. Unless we stay there 30 years I don't see why the reaction to a current, more overt assault of a different dictator would be different.

 

[Travis]

You would have had to be there to fully understand who was ignorant of the 911 facts. But, in short, that was a Truther that said that.

 

[Travis]

Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you're still with us.



I think that would've been 10 times as brutal even compared to our current Iraq woes. And it will still be 10 times as brutal if we do so in a year or so, as we've learned absolutely nothing about occupation (plus Iran is very formidable and we may not have enough troops to even initially occupy the country).

Plus, even with Hezbollah, Iran has committed far less atrocities than Iraq did. And they haven't started a war in centuries, no matter their rhetoric. Iraq truly was a belligerant. Plus plus, we've gone into Iran before when we overthrew Mossadeq. The eventual reaction was a despotic theocratic regime. Unless we stay there 30 years I don't see why the reaction to a current, more overt assault of a different dictator would be different.

I'm just saying if I had to choose a war between the two I view Iran as a worse threat right now. But maybe I'm being influenced by my disillusionment over how the war in Iraq was prosecuted.

 

[Nasty Neil]

It is NOT my fault people are ignorant of the facts which prove the Iraq War is Fully Justifed. I got the facts and others could have done the same as they were there to get.

Granted, as I am retired, I did more time to get them. YET others I know who agree with me, had no more free time than most and yet, they also got the facts.

Bottom Line? When people are Ignorant of the Facts which PROVE the Iraq War is Fully Juisifed, they only have themselves to blame!