Israeli Army has Doubts

Oh yes this is important too and maybe this is the most important. I had in mind to mention that the reason why many Jews were enganged in Philosophy was because of their Religion.

This happens when I don't take down my thoughts before posting...

Thank you hgc
 
"Israeli Commandos Refuse to Serve in W.Bank, Gaza

Dec. 21 — By Megan Goldin
JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Thirteen fighters in Israel's most celebrated commando unit have publicly refused to serve in the West Bank and Gaza Strip because they believe the army's operations there are immoral, Israeli media reported.

The commandos announced their refusal to serve in a letter sent to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who has come under increased pressure to halt efforts to quash a three-year-old Palestinian uprising and instead engage in peace treaty talks.

"We will no longer be party to an oppressive rule in the territories and the disregard for the human rights of millions of Palestinians," the 13 Sayeret Matkal reservist commandos wrote in their letter, according to local television stations.

"We will no longer be a defensive wall against settlements," added the letter, in a reference to Jewish settlements in lands Israel occupied in the 1967 Middle East war.

The Sayeret Matkal, or General Staff Reconnaissance Unit, is Israel's most elite commando unit and has often been compared to the U.S. military's Delta Force or the British army's SAS...."

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/reuters20031221_154.html
 
Tel Aviv on alert to thwart attacks

And yet the other 99.997% still on the job are doing excelent work!

The last suicide attack hit Israel on October 4, killing 22 people including the bomber in a seaside restaurant in Haifa.


Shaul Mofaz, Israel's defense minister, has said that the situation has been deceptively quiet because the Israelis have thwarted 22 attempted suicide attacks since the October 4 blast.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...mideast_afp/mideast_israel_alert_031213113559
 
Re: Re: Tel Aviv on alert to thwart attacks

a_unique_person said:


You are arguing a different point. What you are talking about is defending Israel, what this whole thread is about is oppressing Palestinians. I don't recall any examples of IDF refusing to defend Israel.
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Was I arguing a point, or was I just giving a kudo for a job well done?

Israeli soldiers that refuse to carry out orders are making decisions on how best to defend their country, and that's not a soldiers job. One can appreciate that they are making a political statement, but that statement should be held until the soldier leaves service.
 
Re: Re: Re: Tel Aviv on alert to thwart attacks

Mycroft said:


Was I arguing a point, or was I just giving a kudo for a job well done?

Israeli soldiers that refuse to carry out orders are making decisions on how best to defend their country, and that's not a soldiers job. One can appreciate that they are making a political statement, but that statement should be held until the soldier leaves service.
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So what Americans who refused to serve in Vietnam?
 
Hi Cleopatra:
I knew that you'd say that. The profile of the Jewish communities was shaped by centuries of procecution and misery. The phaenomenon is unique indeed but it turned out that way because the hatred against the Jews is unique in History.
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Exactly the thing that irritates me so much. The outcome of the Mosaic Revolution has survived for over three thousand years not because it has been constantly persecuted but because it is successful. It takes more than persecution to be successful. Ask the Ismaelis, amongst many others whose names have not even survived. (Persecution tends to cause that.) The Jews have a history, and it isn't all misery and marginalisation.
Of course you are wrong but I apologize we don't fit to your personal theories.I sound ironic but I am not. Such comments from your part make me furious.
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Why am I wrong? Was the validity of kingship within the Mosaic system not an issue? Was Jerusalem not a personal possession of David, and nothing to do with Israel? Was the Temple established for strategic reasons or not? Where do I give you the impression that I know less about Judaism than you do? And please, don't tell me it's because I haven't been oppressed or served my time in the IDF because that doesn't define Judaism. Like the man said, if you want to be an atheist you have to know your Bible better than they do.

Sorry about the tardy reply, but the impromptu celebration of Saddam's capture seems to have kick-started the usual pre-soltice inebriations and the last week is pretty hazy.
Yours,
seriously solticed,
CapelDodger.

(Another solstice, and still no rapture).
 
CapelDodger said:
(Another solstice, and still no rapture).
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:nope:
I have told you many times that you are not eating well... you just don't listen to me.
As for the essence of your post go sell those tricks to somebody else, your charm doesn't sell here, nice try though :)
 
Re: Re: Re: Tel Aviv on alert to thwart attacks

Mycroft said:
Israeli soldiers that refuse to carry out orders are making decisions on how best to defend their country, and that's not a soldiers job. One can appreciate that they are making a political statement, but that statement should be held until the soldier leaves service.
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Generally I agree with you but Israeli Army is a bit peculiar because it's not a professional army and Israeli citizens serve the Army for many years, practically during all their life also the bond with the country is different and really strong, we don't really separate those things.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Tel Aviv on alert to thwart attacks

Originally posted by a_unique_person
So what Americans who refused to serve in Vietnam?
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Do you mean to ask what about U.S. citizens who refused to serve in Vietnam?

I don't know, what about them?
 
Mycroft said:


And?
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citizens still have an obligation to act morally.

For example, todays story.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/22/1071941666170.html

Elite soldiers take a stand against Sharon
By Megan Goldin
Jerusalem
December 23, 2003

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Email to a friend



Thirteen fighters in Israel's most celebrated commando unit have publicly refused to serve in the West Bank and Gaza Strip because they believe the army's operations there are immoral.

The commandos announced their refusal to serve in a letter to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who is under increased pressure to halt efforts to quash a three-year-old Palestinian uprising and engage in peace talks.

"We will no longer be party to an oppressive rule in the territories and the disregard for the human rights of millions of Palestinians," the 13 Sayeret Matkal reservist commandos wrote in their letter, according to local television stations.

"We have long ago crossed the line between fighters fighting a just cause and oppressing another people," the three officers and 10 soldiers wrote. The letter was made public by the soldiers, who signed with their ranks, first names and the first letter of their last names.
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This is not just 1% protesting. You can be sure that when elite troops, pilots and even generals are unhappy with the treatment of Palestinians, then those who would be too afraid to speak up for fear of reprisal are there in the ranks too.

This appears to be a part of a campaign, perhaps organised, to pressure Sharon into real compromise. He may be able to lie to the Israeli population, those who have to carry out his orders appear to know that what they are doing is not moral.

Those most vocal in their support of Israel appear to be those who have to take no part in maintaining Sharon's fantasy.
 
Originally posted by a_unique_person

They were opting out of a war they didn't believe in or could see the sense in fighting for. A moral decision.
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A moral decision? I think that's questionable.

Citizenship carries responsibilities. For the protection of the state, one also has obligations to the state, and sometimes that may include military service when needed.

If one wishes to protest the actions of the state, there are methods that are acceptable and those that are not. Speaking out, campaigning or demonstrating against the policy you don’t like are among the acceptable actions, failing to live up to ones obligations to the state are not.
 
from Mycroft:
Citizenship carries responsibilities. For the protection of the state, one also has obligations to the state, and sometimes that may include military service when needed.
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"Need" being defined by the state, presumably. You apparently see the individual removed of all moral duties expect that of following the leaders. This is known as "patriotism" and, like religion, only impresses fools.
 
Mycroft said:


A moral decision? I think that's questionable.

Citizenship carries responsibilities. For the protection of the state, one also has obligations to the state, and sometimes that may include military service when needed.

If one wishes to protest the actions of the state, there are methods that are acceptable and those that are not. Speaking out, campaigning or demonstrating against the policy you don’t like are among the acceptable actions, failing to live up to ones obligations to the state are not.
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In Australia during the Vietnam war, those who refused to be drafted were referred to as "conscientous objectors". It would have been good if Germany had had a few of them before WWII.

IIRC, soldiers are not required to perform illegal acts. For example, those US troops at Mai Lai.
 
Originally posted by CapelDodger
"Need" being defined by the state, presumably. You apparently see the individual removed of all moral duties expect that of following the leaders. This is known as "patriotism" and, like religion, only impresses fools.
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Oh spare me your pretensions, I’m not impressed. One doesn’t need to embrace patriotism to recognize a duty to his state, nor does one need to remove himself from moral duties to fulfill those obligations. Your disdain for both patriotism and religion is noted. I’m happy to say I don’t share it, but you have my pity on both counts.
 
Originally posted by a_unique_person

In Australia during the Vietnam war, those who refused to be drafted were referred to as "conscientous objectors". It would have been good if Germany had had a few of them before WWII.

IIRC, soldiers are not required to perform illegal acts. For example, those US troops at Mai Lai.
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And what is your point this time?

Is this your strategy? To make statements that vaguely seem like they might have something to do with the topic and let us guess how? Do you think that better minds might draw conclusions that you're not capable of making on your own?

If you think that Australian conscientous objectors from the Vietnam era have something to do with this argument, then please tell us how. Are you saying they're the same? Are you saying they're different? Are you saying anything at all?
 
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