Israeli Army has Doubts

[Cleopatra]

My only point about the Nazis was that their humiliation of Jews was seen by the author of a book to be a terrible thing that was as bad as killing someone, that is, taking away their life in principal, if not in fact. There are many more features of the Nazi regime that do not apply to Israel.

So far you haven't demonstrated a single feature of the Nazi regime that can be applied to Israel unless I missed it and in that case please, do me the favor to re-post it.

Also, the Israelis are responding--often in questionable ways--to a real danger,the suicide terrorists attacks are real. You haven't replied if you think that Jews constituted a real danger to the German society during the Nazi period.

 

[a_unique_person]

So far you haven't demonstrated a single feature of the Nazi regime that can be applied to Israel unless I missed it and in that case please, do me the favor to re-post it.

I thought I was referring to the humiliation and need for passes, etc of Jews. However, I was not saying that Israel is itself a Nazi state. Just that this person who was a Nazi felt that this treatment, when handed out to Jews, was inhuman.

I would point out that many members of the IDF feel that treating Palestinians in a such a way is not something they feel comfortable about.

Also, the Israelis are responding--often in questionable ways--to a real danger,the suicide terrorists attacks are real. You haven't replied if you think that Jews constituted a real danger to the German society during the Nazi period.

I thought I already did, when I said that Hitler and the Nazis were the only danger. (well, there were plenty of communists too, but France had communists as well, without turning into a totalitarian state.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I thought I was referring to the humiliation and need for passes, etc of Jews.

One can’t reflect on the history of the Palestinian-Arabs without feeling sorry for these people. They have been used as pawns by the greater Arabic nations, manipulated and robbed by their own leaders, and brainwashed into continuing a losing struggle that only brings them more misery.

Yes, the checkpoints are a part of the Palestinian-Arab hardships, but is it fair to criticize them without acknowledging the reasons behind them? Is “humiliating” a good word to describe them? Do they make for a good comparison to Nazism?

No.

As great a hardship as the checkpoints are, there is a reason behind them, and that reason is terrorism. Unfortunately, Palestinian-Arabic society supports terrorism to a greater degree than any other society in the world. While the majority of Palestinian-Arabs are not terrorists, the ones that are are relentless and fanatical, willing to go to extremes if it will kill just a few Israelis. The truth is there is no society in the world that would not take similar measures in self-defense. Further, placing the blame on the Israelis without acknowledging the role Palestinian-Arabs play in creating the problem is unrealistic. Creating a lasting peace and removing the checkpoints will require cooperation from both societies.

On “humiliation.”: Honestly, I can’t understand why this word is used in conjunction with Israeli checkpoints. Nowhere in the world except in the disputed territories in Israel is a checkpoint considered “humiliating.” Yes, they are Inconvenient, annoying, and time consuming, but humiliating? No, that’s absurd.

In the United States people go through checkpoints all the time. I used to have a job where a search was normal both coming to and leaving work. In addition, we have kids being searched before they go to school, we have checkpoints where people are searched before going into federal buildings, people who want to fly are searched before boarding an airplane, and even driving on the street at night, a person may encounter a police sobriety checkpoint.

Are all these people being humiliated? No. While few people like them, most understand that these inconveniences are a matter of public safety and that a greater good is served.

You want an example of humiliation? Imagine being a third generation Palestinian-Arab living in Syria who still can’t become a citizen and is thus a second-class citizen without access to the same educational opportunities, employment opportunities and social services. That’s humiliating.

I have a problem with the Nazism comparison for several reasons:

1) It’s an insult to the survivors and the descendents of survivors of Nazism. Jews, communists, political dissidents…all of them. While there are some events in human history that can be compared, this isn’t one of them.

2) Using terms inappropriately robs them of their meaning. Nazism, holocaust, genocide… these are all real events in history that deserve to be remembered for what they were. It’s wrong when PETA uses Holocaust imagery to evoke sympathy for chickens because people are not the moral equivalent of livestock. Palestinian-Arabs and Israelis are both human, so they can be compared, but it’s absurd to compare being delayed at a checkpoint to systematic robbery, slavery and extermination.

3) As a comparison, it’s just not a very good one. While Jews of Nazi Germany did face travel restrictions, that’s about as far as the comparison goes. The truth is that for the Jews of Nazi Germany, travel restrictions were a hardship, but they were really low on the list of things to worry about. For the Palestinian-Arabs, it’s pretty high on the list.

 

[a_unique_person]

I think everyone confuses the use of the example I wrote about. I was not comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, but saying that one aspect of it, in it's treatment of Jews, was reminiscent of the current treatment of Palestinians.

Like I said in another thread, there is a lesson in there for all of us. Eg, I have never really like the growing fashion, taken from the Americans, of having an Australian flag in your front yard. This book only confirms my dislike. Collective pride is something to be wary of.

Israel is not Nazi Germany, but it does remind me of some aspects of Nazi Germany in it's treatment of Palestinians.

However, as to your point about the treatment of Palestinians. There are now four influential groups who agree that the treatment of Palestinians is about much more than preventing terrorism, it is about degrading them. IDF Pilots, Generals, former intelligence directors and rank and file members of the military. These people should know what it is really about, and they are saying the Palestinians should not be treated like this.

 

[Cleopatra]

I thought I was referring to the humiliation and need for passes, etc of Jews. However, I was not saying that Israel is itself a Nazi state. Just that this person who was a Nazi felt that this treatment, when handed out to Jews, was inhuman.

Humiliations in the check points exist. I'd say that they happen everyday and I wish this madness stopped but the humiliation of the opponent is in the menu of every conflict since antiquity.The humiliations that Jews suffered are not what makes Nazism unique in History. Since the 3th ce BC and until the end of WW II Jews did nothing but suffering every sort of humiliation.

So, it's wrong to compare Israel with Hitler based on what happens to the check points.

Humiliation of the victims is not what made Nazism unique and I am sure that you know that.

I would point out that many members of the IDF feel that treating Palestinians in a such a way is not something they feel comfortable about.

Yes and many citizens as well. I feel very bad about it, on the other hand the terror numbs your mind and as I have told you many times before, the Arabs who have lost the war do nothing to help us to help them. We don't expect them to love us, we just want they stop the blind terrorist attacks. We want to stop making us, the pacifists look like idiots.

One last thing. I am asking you to stop allying with the extremes. I am asking you to stop triggering extreme responses to your messages, I am asking you to stop using provocative titles to your threads , it's childish and meaningless.

I am a Jew by experience. For me being jewish is an everyday habit, I am not a fanatic because I don't need to read the Bible to learn what being a Jew means. If you believe that there is a meaning in the above sentences don't behave to me as if I am a caricature of Shyloc because I am not.

 

[CapelDodger]

Hi Cleopatra:

So, it's wrong to compare Israel with Hitler based on what happens to the check points.

I don't know how credible the anecdote is, but it does make a telling point. The Nazis should not be brought up lightly in a discussion, but on the other hand the actual demonstration in 30's Germany of how people can be taught brutality must be examined and learned from. (The anecdote is suspicious in that it makes the point of incremental brutalisation rather too nicely.) This brutalisation is another thing I hold against nationalism.

Israel does represent decent Western values in many ways, which is what limits people like Sharon. Sharon has left a trail of civilian dead behind him throughout his career, and I don't think for a moment that questions of scale matter a fig to him. If he could, and thought it would serve his purposes, he would happily annihilate the Palestinians. He can't because Israel wouldn't let him. Will Israel allow the creation of "bantustans" in which the Palestinians (Muslim and Christian) will be imprisoned? By incremental steps it might be done. Especially when the Israelis that might prevent it don't live there or see it depicted on their televisions except when there's an attack on Israelis. Just as few Germans lived in Poland.

 

[Cleopatra]

Capel Dodger

Thanks for you lecture it's time for questions now.

Do you believe that Israel can be compared to the Germany of the Nazi period?

Yes or no?

 

[a_unique_person]

Humiliations in the check points exist. I'd say that they happen everyday and I wish this madness stopped but the humiliation of the opponent is in the menu of every conflict since antiquity.The humiliations that Jews suffered are not what makes Nazism unique in History. Since the 3th ce BC and until the end of WW II Jews did nothing but suffering every sort of humiliation.

They suffered humiliation long before then. But they were one of the few to write it down, even if they followed the time honoured practice of turning a defeat into a 'victory' of the spirit, like the Australians at Gallipoli. Hence we have a good history of them. Many others were totally wiped off the face of the earth. They did not live to tell us the history.

However, taking on the Romans was not a good idea. Or having a mass suicide when they lost.

So, it's wrong to compare Israel with Hitler based on what happens to the check points.

Humiliation of the victims is not what made Nazism unique and I am sure that you know that.

All I did was read a book about a man who grew up as a Nazi, and was struck by what he saw was wrong with the treatment of the Jews. He did not know about the death camps till after the war, but he knew that the dehumanising treatment of them was wrong, despite what his father taught him about the 'sinister Jew'.

There members of the IDF who are standing up and saying that they believe they are doing something that is morally wrong and strategically stupid are only doing the same thing. They are feeling the human reaction to having to carry out orders they know to be wrong.

Yes and many citizens as well. I feel very bad about it, on the other hand the terror numbs your mind and as I have told you many times before, the Arabs who have lost the war do nothing to help us to help them. We don't expect them to love us, we just want they stop the blind terrorist attacks. We want to stop making us, the pacifists look like idiots.

I think that is the point. A military occupation, in which armed troops patrol the street, some of them committing ad hoc atrocities, will also numb the mind. I cannot imagine what it would be like for me, if I was to, say, take my child to play basketball. Along the way I had to stop at a checkpoint, where a man I had never met before pointed a loaded military weapon at me, searched my car, then made me wait 20 minutes to get through for no reason other than to humiliate me. My whole day would then be one of numbness, and hatred for the person who had done this to me. My child would be seeing this, and learning also how to hate.

When the Soviet Union crumbled, they wave of human beings throwing off the military shackles that bound them to Russian was overwhelming. These people had also lived a mind numbing life. The Russians, and their proxies, knew also that what they were doing was wrong, and that they just had to leave these countries. It was a humiliation for Russia, but one that they could not put off forever.

It reminds me of another story, this time from the film "Withnail and I". A character is telling the story of a person who is holding on to a helium balloon, and going for a ride up to the sky. This is very enjoyable, but then they have to make a decision. At what point do they let go. The longer they hold on, the worse it gets.

One last thing. I am asking you to stop allying with the extremes. I am asking you to stop triggering extreme responses to your messages, I am asking you to stop using provocative titles to your threads , it's childish and meaningless.

Which part of "Israeli Army has Doubts" is the provocative bit?

I am a Jew by experience. For me being jewish is an everyday habit, I am not a fanatic because I don't need to read the Bible to learn what being a Jew means. If you believe that there is a meaning in the above sentences don't behave to me as if I am a caricature of Shyloc because I am not.

There are in fact a few pawn shops in Melbourne that a stereo-typically Shyloc. Mean, rundown and usurious. The fact that there are only a few of them indicates to me that most Jews do not fit this stereotype.

I do not believe I have ever indicated you are anything like this. If you can point me to a place where I have, I will apoligise for it.

 

[a_unique_person]

One can?t reflect on the history of the Palestinian-Arabs without feeling sorry for these people. They have been used as pawns by the greater Arabic nations, manipulated and robbed by their own leaders, and brainwashed into continuing a losing struggle that only brings them more misery.

Yes, the checkpoints are a part of the Palestinian-Arab hardships, but is it fair to criticize them without acknowledging the reasons behind them? Is ?humiliating? a good word to describe them? Do they make for a good comparison to Nazism?

No.

As great a hardship as the checkpoints are, there is a reason behind them, and that reason is terrorism.

That is your opion. Mine is that a large part of the reason is to disrupt Palestinian life. It is part of a pattern of behaviour to cut up the Palestinian people into ghettos that are not a viable society. Look at a map of the settlements that have been created. It reminds you of a disease like smallpox. The wall to 'protect' these settlements does not follow the 'green line', it cuts deep into Palestine. Why? So it can protect the settlements from terrorism. But why are the settlements there? Where is the sense in the reasoning behind, "These Palestinians are a threat to me, so I will build my home as close to them as I can".


Unfortunately, Palestinian-Arabic society supports terrorism to a greater degree than any other society in the world. While the majority of Palestinian-Arabs are not terrorists, the ones that are are relentless and fanatical, willing to go to extremes if it will kill just a few Israelis. The truth is there is no society in the world that would not take similar measures in self-defense. Further, placing the blame on the Israelis without acknowledging the role Palestinian-Arabs play in creating the problem is unrealistic. Creating a lasting peace and removing the checkpoints will require cooperation from both societies.

On ?humiliation.?: Honestly, I can?t understand why this word is used in conjunction with Israeli checkpoints. Nowhere in the world except in the disputed territories in Israel is a checkpoint considered ?humiliating.? Yes, they are Inconvenient, annoying, and time consuming, but humiliating? No, that?s absurd.

In the United States people go through checkpoints all the time. I used to have a job where a search was normal both coming to and leaving work. In addition, we have kids being searched before they go to school, we have checkpoints where people are searched before going into federal buildings, people who want to fly are searched before boarding an airplane, and even driving on the street at night, a person may encounter a police sobriety checkpoint.

Are all these people being humiliated? No. While few people like them, most understand that these inconveniences are a matter of public safety and that a greater good is served.

[/b][/quote]

How many times have you had to wait while the person checking you leaves you in the hot sun, after aiming a military weapon at you, and talks to his friends for a while? I think I know the answer. It is zero.

The checkpoints you refer to are there for a reason. Many of the West Bank check points serve no purpose at all. A road will be blocked, but you can just walk around the check point. It is interdiction designed to harrass a society.

You want an example of humiliation? Imagine being a third generation Palestinian-Arab living in Syria who still can?t become a citizen and is thus a second-class citizen without access to the same educational opportunities, employment opportunities and social services. That?s humiliating.

I have a problem with the Nazism comparison for several reasons:

1) It?s an insult to the survivors and the descendents of survivors of Nazism. Jews, communists, political dissidents?all of them. While there are some events in human history that can be compared, this isn?t one of them.

2) Using terms inappropriately robs them of their meaning. Nazism, holocaust, genocide? these are all real events in history that deserve to be remembered for what they were. It?s wrong when PETA uses Holocaust imagery to evoke sympathy for chickens because people are not the moral equivalent of livestock. Palestinian-Arabs and Israelis are both human, so they can be compared, but it?s absurd to compare being delayed at a checkpoint to systematic robbery, slavery and extermination.

You do not appear to have heard about the systematic robbery that is indeed taking place, of land. It is a relentless process. Every new or expanded settlement is another act of theft.

3) As a comparison, it?s just not a very good one. While Jews of Nazi Germany did face travel restrictions, that?s about as far as the comparison goes. The truth is that for the Jews of Nazi Germany, travel restrictions were a hardship, but they were really low on the list of things to worry about. For the Palestinian-Arabs, it?s pretty high on the list.

You do not appear to have noticed the recent reports in the paper of Palestinians being shot at and harrassed for harvesting their crops. Death is a real prospect for Palestinians.

 

[a_unique_person]

Capel Dodger

Thanks for you lecture it's time for questions now.

Do you believe that Israel can be compared to the Germany of the Nazi period?

Yes or no?

I don't think there is a yes/no black/white answer to this. All countries can be compared to Nazi Germany in some ways. They just measure up in smaller of larger extents to that similarity.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person

That is your opion. Mine is that a large part of the reason is to disrupt Palestinian life. It is part of a pattern of behaviour to cut up the Palestinian people into ghettos that are not a viable society. Look at a map of the settlements that have been created. It reminds you of a disease like smallpox. The wall to 'protect' these settlements does not follow the 'green line', it cuts deep into Palestine. Why? So it can protect the settlements from terrorism. But why are the settlements there? Where is the sense in the reasoning behind, "These Palestinians are a threat to me, so I will build my home as close to them as I can".

I think comparing Israeli settlements to a disease is one of those provocative phrases Cleopatra was talking about.

I can certainly see that checkpoints are disruptive to Palestinian life, but so is terrorism disruptive to Israeli life. Of the two, I think I’d rather have my life disrupted by a checkpoint, even an arbitrary one. In any case, isn’t the rational thing to do is to address the underlying reason for checkpoints, terrorism?

Originally posted by a_unique_person
How many times have you had to wait while the person checking you leaves you in the hot sun, after aiming a military weapon at you, and talks to his friends for a while? I think I know the answer. It is zero.

How about being held at gun-point in my underwear while police searched my home while making disparaging remarks about my housekeeping? Thinking back on the event, “humiliating” is not among the words I would choose to describe it.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You do not appear to have heard about the systematic robbery that is indeed taking place, of land. It is a relentless process. Every new or expanded settlement is another act of theft.

I am aware of settlement building, though relentless isn’t the word I would use to describe it. New settlements are not being built, and getting approval to expand existing settlements is very hard as there is a lot of political opposition against it.

You call it theft?

Maybe, but you can make a pretty good argument against it.

In order to steal something, it must first have an owner. In this situation, we’re not taling about personal ownership, but political ownership, as in The United States owns Guam.

But how can anyone but Israel claim political ownership? There is no state called Palestine and the previous political entities of Jordan, the British government and the Ottoman empire have all either renounced their claims, withdrawn, or dissolved.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You do not appear to have noticed the recent reports in the paper of Palestinians being shot at and harrassed for harvesting their crops. Death is a real prospect for Palestinians.

I’ve seen reports from the ISM, but haven’t been able to verify them through any other sources. I can see how it would happen so I’m not claiming it’s made up, but neither do I have any idea how widespread the issue is. I do know that settlements are frequently the targets of terrorist attacks.

 

[Cleopatra]

I don't think there is a yes/no black/white answer to this. All countries can be compared to Nazi Germany in some ways. They just measure up in smaller of larger extents to that similarity.

You will have to list the countries and societies in History that consented to the industrial extermination of almost 12.000.000 people if you insist in supporting this claim.

 

[a_unique_person]

I think comparing Israeli settlements to a disease is one of those provocative phrases Cleopatra was talking about.

You tell me what it reminds you of then.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Land_Grab_Map.asp

I can certainly see that checkpoints are disruptive to Palestinian life, but so is terrorism disruptive to Israeli life. Of the two, I think I’d rather have my life disrupted by a checkpoint, even an arbitrary one. In any case, isn’t the rational thing to do is to address the underlying reason for checkpoints, terrorism?

But after a lifetime of checkpoints, tanks and guns, you might decide you want to be free of it all. Perhaps the underlying cause of the terrorism is the means of defeating the terrorism? The English experience in Ireland demonstrated that heavy handed use of power is counter-productive.

How about being held at gun-point in my underwear while police searched my home while making disparaging remarks about my housekeeping? Thinking back on the event, “humiliating” is not among the words I would choose to describe it.

I am aware of settlement building, though relentless isn’t the word I would use to describe it. New settlements are not being built, and getting approval to expand existing settlements is very hard as there is a lot of political opposition against it.

Tenders for new settlements are being raised. Sharon has already argued that those in existing settlements should be allowed to expand them.

You call it theft?

Maybe, but you can make a pretty good argument against it.

In order to steal something, it must first have an owner. In this situation, we’re not taling about personal ownership, but political ownership, as in The United States owns Guam.

But how can anyone but Israel claim political ownership? There is no state called Palestine and the previous political entities of Jordan, the British government and the Ottoman empire have all either renounced their claims, withdrawn, or dissolved.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/Hebron_2003.asp
H-2, Hebron
Status Report, August 2003



Hebron. Photo: Nati Shohat, Reuters

Upon the signing of the Hebron Agreement, in January 1997, Hebron was divided into two parts: Area H-1, an area of eighteen square kilometers (80% of the city) with 115,000 Palestinians, was handed over to complete Palestinian control. Area H-2, in which 35,000 Palestinians and 500 settlers live, remained under Israeli security control, with the Palestinian Authority being given only civilian powers. During the al-Aqsa intifada, Israel again took control of Area H-1.


Since the beginning of the Al-Aqsa Intifada, the living conditions of Palestinians in H-2, primarily in the Casbah (Old City) area near the settlements, have deteriorated significantly. As a result, those families who could afford to do so moved to other neighborhoods.



Among the factors leading to their leaving the area are the following:


Palestinians in this area suffer almost daily physical violence and property damage by settlers in the city. Settlers throw stones at them, curse them, damage their property, and take over their apartments. At its worst, the violent acts resulted in the death of fourteen-year-old Nibin Jamjum. Security forces do not protect Palestinians against settler violence and almost never enforce the law against the lawbreakers. Even in cases in which the security forces anticipate settler violence, they fail to make preparations to prevent the attacks. A report prepared by Israel's Civil Administration stated that, "The image of the State of Israel is extremely bad in all matters related to law enforcement in Hebron."
The restrictions on Palestinian movement in the city are among the harshest in the Occupied Territories. The IDF imposes curfew on Palestinian residents of H-2 both in response to violence by Palestinians and violence by settlers, and to enable settlers to hold public events. Between 2,000-2,500 shops and businesses have been closed in the area since the beginning of the current intifada. Business life in the Casbah and Bab a-Zawiya area, which constituted the commercial center of the city, has come to an almost complete standstill. The inability to move about freely and to earn a living has increased the unemployment rate and the number of people living in poverty. These restrictions also affect the ability of residents to receive medical services and for children to attend school in a normal and regular manner.

Palestinian residents of H-2 also suffer from serious acts of violence by border policemen and IDF soldiers. Testimonies provided to B'Tselem indicate a phenomenon of routine, daily violence by security forces, including beatings, hurling of stun grenades, and theft of money and goods, sometimes by threat. The most egregious incident of violence was the killing of 'Imran Abu Hamdiya by four border policemen, who were interrogated only after B'Tselem and other human rights organizations pressured the authorities. State officials stubbornly sought to present this case and others as "unusual cases." However, B'Tselem has documented many other cases, even after the killing of Abu Hamdiya. In fact, violence by security forces is a widespread phenomenon, which began before the killing of Abu Hamdiya and still continues.

Israel has continually ignored its duty to protect the safety and welfare of the Palestinians living in Area H-2. Most IDF effort is directed toward protecting settlers in the city, while grossly violating the human rights of the city's Palestinian residents.


The primary cause of the grave violation of Palestinian human rights is the presence of the settlers within the city. Therefore, Israel must remove the settlers. As long as settlers are living in the city, Israel must protect their safety and welfare. It cannot do so, however, while ignoring almost completely its obligations toward the city's Palestinian population, and while systematically and continually violating their rights.

I’ve seen reports from the ISM, but haven’t been able to verify them through any other sources. I can see how it would happen so I’m not claiming it’s made up, but neither do I have any idea how widespread the issue is. I do know that settlements are frequently the targets of terrorist attacks.

 

[Cleopatra]

They suffered humiliation long before then. But they were one of the few to write it down, even if they followed the time honoured practice of turning a defeat into a 'victory' of the spirit, like the Australians at Gallipoli. Hence we have a good history of them. Many others were totally wiped off the face of the earth. They did not live to tell us the history.

I am sorry you lost me. I replied to you that humiliation is part of the menu in any conflict and the humiliation of the "enemy" is not what distinguishes Hitler.

What does the paragraph above has to do with that?

However, taking on the Romans was not a good idea. Or having a mass suicide when they lost.

All I did was read a book about a man who grew up as a Nazi, and was struck by what he saw was wrong with the treatment of the Jews. He did not know about the death camps till after the war, but he knew that the dehumanising treatment of them was wrong, despite what his father taught him about the 'sinister Jew'.

In that case the book is bad. If what impressed a Nazi from that period is the humiliation of th jewish people then you shouldn't spend time reading his book. He suffers from a poor judgement and I think that it should be obvious to you.

There members of the IDF who are standing up and saying that they believe they are doing something that is morally wrong and strategically stupid are only doing the same thing. They are feeling the human reaction to having to carry out orders they know to be wrong.

Again wrong. Nazis didn't just humiliate people don't you know what Nazis did to people?

Along the way I had to stop at a checkpoint, where a man I had never met before pointed a loaded military weapon at me, searched my car, then made me wait 20 minutes to get through for no reason other than to humiliate me. My whole day would then be one of numbness, and hatred for the person who had done this to me. My child would be seeing this, and learning also how to hate.

Have in mind that the guard in the check point might have his relatives killed in a suicide bombing, he might have a child that was killed in a bus while it was returning from school. Some guards in the check points see in the Arabs a potential but real danger.

You have to understand that Israelis have a real danger to fear you cannot compare them with the Nazis.

Which part of "Israeli Army has Doubts" is the provocative bit?

It's the fact that you compare an episode from the check points with a book of a nazi author who wasn't aware of the camps!!! Please, pity me.

There are in fact a few pawn shops in Melbourne that a stereo-typically Shyloc. Mean, rundown and usurious. The fact that there are only a few of them indicates to me that most Jews do not fit this stereotype.

I do not believe I have ever indicated you are anything like this. If you can point me to a place where I have, I will apoligise for it.

When my grandmother exited the ship that brought her to Palestine, a couple of American Jews that were with her in the ship fell on their knees and kissed the soil. My grandmother was left speachless looking at them with horror. Somebody saw her looking at them with astonishment and he asked her rather provocatively " Why do you look at them like that? They kiss the land of our Fathers" and my grandma with her imperial style ( I can imagine what look she had in her face ) replied to him that Our fathers have died in the Camps and they were real persons not mythical personae.

She used to call the people who enjoyed kissing the soil of our father Abraham as "caricatures of Shyloc".

I am not a caricature of Shyloc so stop talking to be about Judea and Samaria and behaving to me as if I have ever claimed here that I can hear the voice of my father Abraham asking for me to go to the West Bank...

 

[a_unique_person]

You will have to list the countries and societies in History that consented to the industrial extermination of almost 12.000.000 people if you insist in supporting this claim.

There was much more to the tragedy of the Third Reich than the Holocaust. That was perhaps it's worst excess, but many of it's actions were reprehensible or the stuff of grand tragedy.

Eg, the first use of propaganda and mass hysteria in a scientific manner. Without that, there probably wouldn't have been a holocaust.

I was amazed to read at the end of the book, "A mind in prison" that many Germans were not even aware that Germany had started the war. They had such an overwhelming impression that the world was out to get them, (built on the abuses by the Allies of the treaties at the end of WWI), that they always thought they were fighting of the hordes that were at the borders.

 

[Cleopatra]

There was much more to the tragedy of the Third Reich than the Holocaust. That was perhaps it's worst excess, but many of it's actions were reprehensible or the stuff of grand tragedy.

Eg, the first use of propaganda and mass hysteria in a scientific manner. Without that, there probably wouldn't have been a holocaust.

I was amazed to read at the end of the book, "A mind in prison" that many Germans were not even aware that Germany had started the war. They had such an overwhelming impression that the world was out to get them, (built on the abuses by the Allies of the treaties at the end of WWI), that they always thought they were fighting of the hordes that were at the borders.

I remind you that this thread is not about the tragedies of the Third Reich in general but about a specific issue that you brought.

You made a specific statement. You said that every country can be compared to the Nazis.

What Nazis did for the first time in History was to exterminate industrialy almost 12m people.

I want you to list the countries that have done similar things.

You have either to prove or retract this statement.

 

[a_unique_person]

I remind you that this thread is not about the tragedies of the Third Reich in general but about a specific issue that you brought.

You made a specific statement. You said that every country can be compared to the Nazis.

What Nazis did for the first time in History was to exterminate industrialy almost 12m people.

I want you to list the countries that have done similar things.

You have either to prove or retract this statement.

A brief list of features of the Nazi regime. As best I can remember, in no particular order.

The use of modern propaganda, eg, film and mass media.
The modern use of 'spin'.
Enslaving the minds of the young, Hitler Youth.
Military adventurism.
The Holocaust.
Development of advanced weapons, eg as the ballistic missile, jet fighter and bomber, assault rifle.
New forms of warfare, The Blitzkreig.
Adolf Hitler.
The mass Rallies.

Any state can be compared to these to see how it compares.

Some were new, some old. All added up to Nazi Party.

 

[Cleopatra]

Unique

You are not doing a very good job in proving your statement.

Pericles was among the first in History who used State Propaganda.
Alexander the Great improved the war techniques his father Philip the II had introduced.


How many people voted for a goverment that murdered the way it did 12m people, 6m of which were Jews?? How many countries have had somebody like Hitler as their elected leader?

How many?

 

[a_unique_person]

I am sorry you lost me. I replied to you that humiliation is part of the menu in any conflict and the humiliation of the "enemy" is not what distinguishes Hitler.

What does the paragraph above has to do with that?







In that case the book is bad. If what impressed a Nazi from that period is the humiliation of th jewish people then you shouldn't spend time reading his book. He suffers from a poor judgement and I think that it should be obvious to you.

It can't be a bad book. It was just his impressions of growing up as a young boy into Nazism. It just related what he experienced. He had heard some rumours that the Jews were being subject to worse atrocities than just being tagged and humiliated. At first the concentration camps were portrayed as just that. Places to concentrate the Jewish population. It was only after the war that the full horror of what had really been done was revealed to him. Before then, as a soldier in a war, most of his time was taken up with military life, worrying about his parents and starvation.

Again wrong. Nazis didn't just humiliate people don't you know what Nazis did to people?

Crikey, it was just a passage from a book I happened to be reading at the time. I was just struck by how he saw humiliation such as the Jews were subject to as inhuman. They had to wear the distinctive badge, would not dare to impose their presence on anyone, and had to subject themselves to routine harrassment, not to mention the continual portrayal of them as the source of all evil in the world, so that they were fair game for anyone to attack and insult and kill with impunity.

Have in mind that the guard in the check point might have his relatives killed in a suicide bombing, he might have a child that was killed in a bus while it was returning from school. Some guards in the check points see in the Arabs a potential but real danger.

There was no such claim of that from the article I quoted. The guard just did it because he could. The imposition of curfews, as far as the residents are concerned, appears to be haphazard and arbitrary. It also constitutes collective punishment. One of the pictures showed people who had rushed out to buy food, only to find that the curfew had been imposed earlier than they expected.

You have to understand that Israelis have a real danger to fear you cannot compare them with the Nazis.

I think the Palestinians experience real danger too.

It's the fact that you compare an episode from the check points with a book of a nazi author who wasn't aware of the camps!!! Please, pity me.

Ex Nazi, if you don't mind. He was brought up to hate the Jews by his father. He only came to realise later in life that his father had been seriously misleading him. The fact is, the Germans believed what Hitler and his propaganda machine told them to believe. Right up to the end of the war, many of them still believed they could win, even though the country was being bombed to oblivion.

When my grandmother exited the ship that brought her to Palestine, a couple of American Jews that were with her in the ship fell on their knees and kissed the soil. My grandmother was left speachless looking at them with horror. Somebody saw her looking at them with astonishment and he asked her rather provocatively " Why do you look at them like that? They kiss the land of our Fathers" and my grandma with her imperial style ( I can imagine what look she had in her face ) replied to him that Our fathers have died in the Camps and they were real persons not mythical personae.

She used to call the people who enjoyed kissing the soil of our father Abraham as "caricatures of Shyloc".

I am not a caricature of Shyloc so stop talking to be about Judea and Samaria and behaving to me as if I have ever claimed here that I can hear the voice of my father Abraham asking for me to go to the West Bank...

I think I used the Judea and Samaria terms because that is what the area is called by Israel.

 

[a_unique_person]

Unique

You are not doing a very good job in proving your statement.

Pericles was among the first in History who used State Propaganda.
Alexander the Great improved the war techniques his father Philip the II had introduced.


How many people voted for a goverment that murdered the way it did 12m people, 6m of which were Jews?? How many countries have had somebody like Hitler as their elected leader?

How many?

I was referring to the use of film. The Nazis made it a new artform. For most Germans, if I read it right, the propaganda made it impossible for many to break away from Hitlers lies.

I don't recall Hitler being elected as leader. IIRC, he manipulated the German political system with various underhand and illegal tactics to sieze power. He achieve much of his success by ridding the Germans of the suffering from the WWI treaties. This gave him much credibility with many. As he had no regard for legal processes or human rights, any people who could see what was coming only spoke up if they had no fear for their personal safety.

He created a kind of political whirlwind that he rode to power. The film of the rallies and speeches are terrifying in the presentation of a population of learned and intelligent people succumbing to mass hysteria. Once the war was over, talk of blaming the Jews for everything that went wrong all but disappeared, except for a few diehards. It was quite apparent who had caused the biggest problems for Germany.