Is There A Gender War?

[gumboot]

As some of you no doubt know, there's several threads running at the moment on the issue of pregnancy and abortion, and I have been partaking in both.

A common theme in these threads is the presentation of one gender or the other in an unrealistically negative light, or alternatively the accusation that another poster has presented one gender or another in an unrealistically negative light.

This seems to be across the board, with neither gender safe, and it's something I've certainly noticed in other discussions that relate in any way to gender (and some that don't).

On a more every-day level, jibes and barbs directed at one gender or another are now so common that I barely notice them unless someone deems to profess insult at them. For example a production company I often work for has labels on their toilet doors "Ladies' Room" and "Smelly Boys' Room". It's a harmless bit of fun and while I'm a pretty laid back good-humored guy, I have to admit, sometimes when I go to the "smelly boy's room" in that place, for a brief moment as I pass through the door, yeah, I'm annoyed, and my feelings are hurt.

Finally, while investigoogling one of these threads I came across a number of books on the topic of ingrained sexism in society. I was pretty familiar with historic domination of western society by men, the accusations of gender bias against women (real and perceived) and accusations of still-existing bias. But this work related to ingrained sexism against men in society, and I was surprised upon looking at Amazon to discover a plethora of books on the topic ranging from the openly militant to the allegedly scholarly.

My intention here is not to debate the validity of sexism on either side, but more to comment that, whether these accusations of sexism from either side are true or not, or have any merit at all or not, they still indicate a deep division in gender in society, and substantial confrontation between genders.

Thinking of my own brief experiences ploughing my way through life, I have to agree - men and women do indeed seem to spend an awful lot of time in conflict with each other.

My question, thus, is in three parts.

Firstly, are my experiences common? Is there really a "gender war"? Is there genuinely a widespread level of conflict between the sexes? I don't necessarily mean outright open hatred here, for what it's worth. I'm talking more of those little quips that slip into every day usage.

Secondly, from our older generation, thinking back to your younger days, did this sort of thing happen then? Was there that daily good-natured (or not so good-natured) bit of "fun" that really amounted to sexism?

Lastly, from those familiar with studying past western societies, particularly those familiar with the detailed ins-and-outs of day to day life, did this exist in our past?

In other words, assuming what I have observed is indeed present across the board in society, does this represent a divide emerging between the genders, or is it just part of the fun and games of being a human being?

Finally, a request... these topics tend to bring out that behaviour, so I'd ask, aside from citing specific examples, if we could keep those digs at the inferior sex out of the thread.

For full disclosure, I am male.

 

[Gurdur]

The amygdala handles both sex and aggression. This can confuse a lot of people.

 

[Soapy Sam]

At the reproductive level, it's clear men and women have very different priorities. The simplistic version is that men have sex, women have children.
Until the advent of the pill, it was perhaps less obvious that these were quite different goals and required quite different strategies.

What we have here are two similar organisms in competition for the same resources, and one of those resources is each other. All humans compete.
Men and women compete for some things and cooperate for others.


As a single, unmarried male, aged 53, my own experience of sexism is that the dishonours are about even in extent, but different in nature.
A few years ago for example, a woman I had been wholly unaware of actually told me I should cross the street if I "was going to follow her along the street" . Now given she had the gall to upbraid a total stranger, she could hardly claim to be afraid of me. There were several people ahead of her on the path, yet it didn't occur to her that she was following them- apparently it's only following if the man happens to be behind the woman.

I was so taken aback, I barely replied and simply went past her, as I would have done in a few seconds anyway.Incidentally, on the one occasion I recall being overtaken on foot by a woman, the woman was Yvonne Murray.

 

[Delvo]

Firstly, are my experiences common? Is there really a "gender war"?

War tends to involve killing, so, no. But there is plenty of animosity. It seems so common that that's exactly why some don't notice or don't believe in it: because they've never seen what life would be like without it and have nothing else to compare it to.

I got so tired of hearing women constantly sitting around badmouthing men (sometimes in general and sometimes individuals, but their own boyfriends/husbands in particular) that I decided not to bother with dating at all because that just brings on more of the same hatred, plotting, backstabbing, and belittlement. (I've concluded that the best way to sum it up is that they don't want a "partner"; they want someone that's easy to feel superior to in one way or another.) Of course there's no way to avoid the stuff completely other than to avoid women completely, but at least this keeps it to a minimum. The point is that the hostility and negativity toward men is so universal that it's nearly impossible to find one who doesn't have it.

Conversely, I recently had one girl or woman (I'm not sure of her age) become the first person ever to tell me she at first thought I was "gay"... not because I do anything fitting the gay stereotype, but because I'm nice and she's used to guys being "********", to the extent that niceness inherently strikes her as unmasculine. A nice man is a combination of concepts that she finds incompatible and just can't integrate in her mind, so the fact that I was clearly one reduced her ability to perceive me as the other. She's mostly pretty friendly and wasn't belligerent even about this. She just calmly answered with this information when I asked her how she'd come up with the idea of me as a homosexual. The point is that she was probably made that way, at least partially, by real past experiences with actual male ********.

Just a few examples, but they don't even stand out much because they're not so uncommon. So ya, it's pretty much everywhere in our society.

Secondly, from our older generation, thinking back to your younger days, did this sort of thing happen then?

I'm only 32, but it seems to me to have started when feminism turned into feminaziism. The original division of labor in the species was natural and fair, and neither half had any choices about what their role in society would be. But when civilization came along, more choices started piling up on one side of the equation than the other, the "outside the home" side, because it was where they fit best, so we ended up with one half of the population being more free to choose what to do with their lives than the other half was. Where feminism went wrong was blaming this accident of history on a supposed male decision to oppress, suppress, and repress because men are just evil meanies like that. So instead of just "Hey, this isn't fair, we want that freedom too", the movement's theme became "Look what they're doing to us! They're the enemy!". And girls since then have all been raised to think of males as an enemy first and foremost. So it's not built in and not inevitable and not a result of either one being inherently more hostile than the other; it's just a cultural movement, which can and presumably will pass.

 

[Stout]

My short answer....no

Delvo's already said most of what I have to add but I would like to state that I was a PC leftist back in the PC 1990's and ended up walking away from that whole scene because I didn't feel it reflected reality all that well.

I found the mentality so narrow, and so restrictive that, to coin a phrase apropos to these fourms I felt I was dealing with "political woo"

What?? there's a war on women perpetrated by men ? A war ? Huh ? Then why am ( was ) working in an office staffed by a bunch of guys who make enough money that their wives don't have to work and can stay home by choice and raise the children ? What, as a leftist was I supposed to think/do..tell these women that patriarchy was the reason they wanted to make these choices and that they should get out there in the workforce and pay someone else to raise their kids... Yea, sure, that would have gone over like a pregnant pole vaulter.

Delvo...I've experienced the same thing as you have, being a nice guy and all and I'm guessing here that your friend is attracted to the "bad boy" types and most likely figures that a "nice guy" isn't a "real" man. It's gender stereotyping at it's worst.

Soapy Sam..out of curiosity, do you live in a big city ? Reason' I'm asking, is the whole PC mentality seems to be confined to big cities ( with all their paranoia and distrust ) and university campuses so the idea of my "needing" to cross the street when approaching a woman is a concept that used to be discussed when i lived in a bigger city ( Vancouver ) but when I raise the idea here in a smaller city, I just get a bunch of blank looks.

 

[Soapy Sam]

My short answer....no

Delvo's already said most of what I have to add but I would like to state that I was a PC leftist back in the PC 1990's and ended up walking away from that whole scene because I didn't feel it reflected reality all that well.

I found the mentality so narrow, and so restrictive that, to coin a phrase apropos to these fourms I felt I was dealing with "political woo"

What?? there's a war on women perpetrated by men ? A war ? Huh ? Then why am ( was ) working in an office staffed by a bunch of guys who make enough money that their wives don't have to work and can stay home by choice and raise the children ? What, as a leftist was I supposed to think/do..tell these women that patriarchy was the reason they wanted to make these choices and that they should get out there in the workforce and pay someone else to raise their kids... Yea, sure, that would have gone over like a pregnant pole vaulter.

Delvo...I've experienced the same thing as you have, being a nice guy and all and I'm guessing here that your friend is attracted to the "bad boy" types and most likely figures that a "nice guy" isn't a "real" man. It's gender stereotyping at it's worst.

Soapy Sam..out of curiosity, do you live in a big city ? Reason' I'm asking, is the whole PC mentality seems to be confined to big cities ( with all their paranoia and distrust ) and university campuses so the idea of my "needing" to cross the street when approaching a woman is a concept that used to be discussed when i lived in a bigger city ( Vancouver ) but when I raise the idea here in a smaller city, I just get a bunch of blank looks.

I live in a town of about 50,000 people, but the incident I describe actually happened in Edinburgh. I suspect though, that the lady concerned was just a mouthy aggressive person- the sort who gives feminists a bad name! Males don't have a monopoly on such .

 

[Gurdur]

My short answer....no.

There is a war between the rich and poor,
A war between the man and the woman.
There is a war between the ones who say there is a war,
And the ones who say that there isn't.

Why don't you come on back to the war?
Don't be a tourist,
Why don't you come on back to the war?
You can still get married.

Ah yes, I live here with a woman and a child,
The situation makes me kind of nervous.
When I rise up from her arms, she says "I guess you call this love --
I call it room service."
.....

--- Leonard Cohen, There Is A War

 

[GreNME]

I think there's probably a pertinent Leonard Cohen quote for pretty much any situation.

 

[Kittyclaws]

No, not a war. I don't think any of our culturally biased preconceptions are deliberately implanted/inflicted on us as children.

I have worked in both traditionally female jobs (receptionist, accounts rec/pay, operator, QC inspector) and non-traditional jobs (electroplater, telco network technician). The pay is better in the nontraditional jobs. A lot better.

When I had female coworkers, I knew they would gossip about me & my friends when I wasn't in the room/office. I knew this because they gossiped about anyone who wasn't present. I've had a few female supervisors. I don't know if it's because they were women or just had really bad management skills but as bosses, most of them sucked. There was an undercurrent of seeming to have to prove themselves which often led to unfair treatment and favoritism.

I've been with my current crew (13 men and me) for 15 years. Most of these guys are decent to work with and the chatter in the crew room has more to do with wacky customers and idiotic upper management decisions than any aspect of each others' personal lives. However, if I ask about anything, I get responses in line with the casual work relationship we have. We're on the 5th manager (4 men, 1 woman, none of whom knew the job we do) in 15 yrs and I have found our current (male) boss very congenial to work with, even when I have my union steward hat on and have to rough him up.

It doesn't have to be a war. I don't expect extras or to be able to do less because I have ovaries. Conversely, if I want a shot at something and have the capabilities and physicality to do the job, I deserve a shot at it.

This may sound horribly sexist but if I'm pinned in a burning building, I want the firefighter who can drag my fat ass out of danger. I don't care if it's a man or woman as long as they can do the job. If little Miss Firefighter who's 5'6" and 125lbs shows up, I'll bet she can't haul me anywhere.

And for those male posters who can't figure out why women want the jerks: it's because some women are stupid. Really, really stupid. But take heart; the stupid starts going away once they hit their 30s and figure out the jerks aren't worth their time and energy.

 

[Gurdur]

I think there's probably a pertinent Leonard Cohen quote for pretty much any situation.

Indeed. It makes it all very easy.

 

[ConspiRaider]

Yep gumboot - there certainly is. And the divide is increasing. It's also heavily promoted - no doubt to capture ratings - by the "press". And after what happened to the record holder - the one person (Hillary Clinton) who, in the history of the USA, garnered more votes in a major party presidential primary election than any other - the battle lines are clearly drawn. But the war happens on both sides, with equal vigor.

So different - so incredibly different - than how things were a generation ago. Although ironically, the war started in the late 60s and early 70s. Today, it is pretty much down to a science. It's a reason (not the only one) as to why serious relationships between men and women are so fraught with strife.

You can't really say much about this, because you just get in trouble. But the war is there. Men and women are at loggerheads, like never before in human history.

 

[Kittyclaws]

It's a reason (not the only one) as to why serious relationships between men and women are so fraught with strife.

You can't really say much about this, because you just get in trouble. But the war is there. Men and women are at loggerheads, like never before in human history.

Do you mean relationships in general, ie: all men v all women? Or specifically intimate, interpersonal relationships like married couples?

 

[SezMe]

I don't think there is a gender war but Delvo certainly gives us some arguments to the contrary with his post:

I got so tired of hearing women constantly sitting around badmouthing men (sometimes in general and sometimes individuals, but their own boyfriends/husbands in particular)...<snip>

"Women". Not some women. Just "women". And "constantly". Not sometimes. "Constantly" And "badmouthing". No good and bad and shades of grey here. According to Delvo, women are constantly badmouthing men.

... that I decided not to bother with dating at all because that just brings on more of the same hatred, plotting, backstabbing, and belittlement.

So the women Delvo dated "just" engaged in "hatred, plotting, backstabbing, and belittlement." Jesus, Delvo, maybe the problem is that you are a complete a****** when it comes to selecting women to date.

(I've concluded that the best way to sum it up is that they don't want a "partner"; they want someone that's easy to feel superior to in one way or another.) Of course there's no way to avoid the stuff completely other than to avoid women completely, but at least this keeps it to a minimum. The point is that the hostility and negativity toward men is so universal that it's nearly impossible to find one who doesn't have it.

Seems to me Delvo wields one of the broadest brushes known to exist. "They" (women) are nearly universally hostile to men. Heh. I think the shoe belongs on the other foot.

And girls since then have all been raised to think of males as an enemy first and foremost.

"All" girls have been so raised? They think of men as an "enemy"? "First and foremost"? Really? I think, for just two examples, my wife and my daughter would differ.

gumboot, I don't know if there is a gender war afoot. But if there is, Delvo should be taken prisoner as an enemy combatent, shipped to Gitmo, and forced to listen to Helen Reddy's I am Woman until he pulls he head out of his nether region.

 

[Hokulele]

Firstly, are my experiences common? Is there really a "gender war"? Is there genuinely a widespread level of conflict between the sexes? I don't necessarily mean outright open hatred here, for what it's worth. I'm talking more of those little quips that slip into every day usage.

Your experiences are very common, even in many different cultures. Almost everywhere I have been, I have seen the quips, sometimes rather mean-spirited, from one gender to the other. Some of the time they are meant in a spirit of fun, other times less so. In my opinion, the only time it becomes a problematic issue is when they are used as generalizations (all women are X, all men are Y), or when they are used as a way to avoid dealing with someone as an individual (as in Soapy Sam's story).

I think a great deal of it can be attributed to the fact that gender is one of the few obvious differences between people. Race and culture are both constructs (although they are certainly persistent ones), gender is much less so, although it does contain a degree of flexibilty. "Us" vs. "Them" is a very seductive way of seeing the world.

Secondly, from our older generation, thinking back to your younger days, did this sort of thing happen then? Was there that daily good-natured (or not so good-natured) bit of "fun" that really amounted to sexism?

Yes! A thousand times yes!

Lastly, from those familiar with studying past western societies, particularly those familiar with the detailed ins-and-outs of day to day life, did this exist in our past?

Heck, it is not just in Western societies. It is very prevalent in Asian cultures, although if you are an unfamiliar male out in public, you probably wouldn't be exposed to it as much as if you were an "insider".

In other words, assuming what I have observed is indeed present across the board in society, does this represent a divide emerging between the genders, or is it just part of the fun and games of being a human being?

Well, I am strong believer in vive la différence, however, a distinction should be made between using the term "smelly boy's room" and saying, "Well, if you sat down to pee, target acquisition wouldn't be a problem."

All of that said, using gender differences to disregard fully half of the world's population will make your world that much smaller.


In the interest of full disclosure, I am a middle-aged female of partial non-Western ancestry.

 

[gumboot]

Thanks for the replies, it's all very interesting.

I am particularly interested in hearing how it was in the "good old days".

 

[Blackadder]

Thanks for the replies, it's all very interesting.

I am particularly interested in hearing how it was in the "good old days".

I am not so sure those good old days were all that good. I am only 32, but I talked a lot with different grandparents (I had 8, because the natural 4 all divorced and married again) They were all born between 1913 and 1929. One thing that is a bit remarkable for that time that all 4 females got an academic degree. Yet the times were so that they didn't do anything with their high level of education. They still got into the traditional wife and mother role. But it means they were on equal level with their equally high educated husbands. My grandmothers didn't indicate that they were disappointed with the way their lives turned out to be. (out of the 8 grandparents , 3 still live)

Talking to them gave me one strong impression: That generation didn't TALK to each other so much. not to eachother, not to their children (my parents generation) Only to me, at the end of their lives, a grandchild they would talk openly. I got the feeling that it was normal then, to be silent about most social issues. (The divorces also were subjects one didn't talk about)

 

[Mark6]

And for those male posters who can't figure out why women want the jerks: it's because some women are stupid. Really, really stupid. But take heart; the stupid starts going away once they hit their 30s and figure out the jerks aren't worth their time and energy.

I think the stereotype "women like jerks" is valid, but cause and effect are reversed. It is not that women particulrly like jerks -- rather, men whom women find attractive act like jerks BECAUSE THEY CAN.

If a young man finds out he can easily get a lot of women dues to his looks, money, or position on football team, he begins treating them like dispensable tissues because he knows he can always get another one. Women badmouth him (deservedly) -- after they break up with him. He does not care because by then he is screwing the next one.

A young man who does not have same advantages has to be nice in order to attract women. He still does not get as much action as the rich handsome jerk. Bitterness and "women like jerks" stereotype ensues. No, women do no like jerks. They like rich and handsome. Rich and hadsome gets spoiled and becomes a jerk.

 

[Mark6]

What?? there's a war on women perpetrated by men ? A war ? Huh ? Then why am ( was ) working in an office staffed by a bunch of guys who make enough money that their wives don't have to work and can stay home by choice and raise the children ? What, as a leftist was I supposed to think/do..tell these women that patriarchy was the reason they wanted to make these choices and that they should get out there in the workforce and pay someone else to raise their kids... Yea, sure, that would have gone over like a pregnant pole vaulter.

I must point out that there are feminists who claim exactly that. They call it false consciousness.

 

[Gurdur]

... I am particularly interested in hearing how it was in the "good old days".

In the "good ol' days", Tricky and Hokulele would square off with axes, maces and swords, and we all watched happily around the campfire as they went for it in a big, big way. Life was good, and we needed no steenking TV.

Then came along the spoilsport mods admins regulators, and they said, "No more obvious honest violence!"

So now Hokulele and Tricky continue the war, but with an ambush here and an ambush there, an ambush downstairs and an ambush in the air, an ambush down and an ambush everywhere.

And because of the spoilsport mods admins regulators, it's only a passing glimpse of the war that you catch now, and most of us are doomed to try getting entertainment by watching Dr.House jumping the shark on TV instead. And Dr.House has steadily gone downhill; imagine the utter idiocy of prescribing L-Dopa to a patient already suffering hallucinations! He should have been struck off the registry for that alone, plus terrible script-writing.

 

[GreNME]

Thanks for the replies, it's all very interesting.

I am particularly interested in hearing how it was in the "good old days".

In the good-old days, women knew their place and men were men.

In all seriousness, though, I don't think it's a war and I don't think the good-old days were honestly all that good. My best estimation is that things weren't much different at the turn of the last century than they are today, but that today we have a more specified and categorized taxonomy of terms regarding the struggles between genders (and sexuality, for that matter), so things seem to be turning toward a sharper contrast.

How's that for vague and noncommittal?