Is There A Gender War?

[Lithrael]

What?? there's a war on women perpetrated by men ? A war ? Huh ? Then why am ( was ) working in an office staffed by a bunch of guys who make enough money that their wives don't have to work and can stay home by choice and raise the children ? What, as a leftist was I supposed to think/do..tell these women that patriarchy was the reason they wanted to make these choices and that they should get out there in the workforce and pay someone else to raise their kids...

It seems to me that that kind of choice *is* patriarchal but also just sensible - if a woman wants to be heavily involved in raising her kids. I was tempted to stay with a rich fella but in the end, because I don't want kids, I did not want to trade in my freedom for a free ride. (It wasn't the deciding factor, but it was def. there.)

I do not like the kind of feminism that says it's stupid to want to have kids and raise them yourself. Conversely I don't like the kind of tradition that says it's stupid not to want to breed. Different strokes and all that.

re: OP... Yeah I think there's a lot of snipping and inequality, no I don't think there's a war. IMO it's a knock-on effect of a long history of both misunderstanding and bitterness at not being able to get what one wants, on both sides.

 

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

If there is a gender war, I surrender!

With any luck, I'll get to surrender to these Israeli Defense Forces soldiers...

Under questioning, I will only disclose my name, rank, and serial number...

and telephone number and address...

and yearly income and my opinions about men cooking and doing housework...

and...

....

HEY! A guy can HOPE, can't he?!?!?

 

[Mark6]

Hi

If there is a gender war, I surrender!

With any luck, I'll get to surrender to these Israeli Defense Forces soldiers...

How about these Ukrainian... something or other?

I want to know how they can march in these high heels without breaking them.

 

[geni]

Compared to the level of conflict within genders? not so much.

 

[Gagglegnash]

Hi

How about these Ukrainian... something or other?

I want to know how they can march in these high heels without breaking them.

Yup. Them, too.

MilSpecHiHeel?

Gotta wonder what that photographer on the ground is after, though....

 

[Amapola]

Compared to the level of conflict within genders? not so much.

This is a terrific point.

In the "good old days" my grandmother was not allowed to vote. She was not allowed to own property. She had learned from childhood not to expect much from society and learned to live with it. Is that good or bad? I'm not sure. As far as I knew (she died when I was very young) she was relatively happy in her life.

In my own life I had the skills and desire to have jobs that are traditionally men's jobs (I am female) and was fired, not hired, or ridiculed - even though I was and am quite competent. (Horse training. It's now considered OK to be a woman horse trainer. I also headed a graphic arts department. Now I own my own business and it is successful.)

I don't see this as a "war", I see it as a difference in society and social values. I used to be considered a walking womb (having grown up in a highly religious area), hopefully I might be considered as a fellow human being now and then.

I think this is all anyone really wants - to be considered as a human being. Therefore I never wanted "women's rights" but "human rights".

 

[GreNME]

Oh, please. Everyone knows women aren't as good as men at training horses. Horses need to know who's boss, and how could a woman ever do that?








_{Just to be clear: I keed}

 

[Gurdur]

.... all anyone really wants - to be ... a human being. .... "human rights".

That is obviously a blow against Shemp, the Marquis and me. I object!

 

[Eddie Dane]

I notice a trend in the media of men wanting their traditional role back.

Part of this trend is positive, as I think that men suppressed too much of their nature by adapting to a PC gender-neutral ideal. This stems from the seventies when the idea was that we could give kids a gender-neutral upbringing so they could choose their own role at they grew up.

I also notice a parallel trend that is as bitter as the feminazis. Have a look at menarebetterthanwomen.com (as seen on dr Phil).
At first glance a harmless corner on the internet where men can indulge in over-the-top parody sexism.
Then go to the forum and read all those angry divorced, broken guys who really take this stuff seriously.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Straight people are so cute! They think they have to be a certain way because of their chromosomes. It's all cultural. Every single little bit of it. Be who you want to be, little straight people. Don't let anybody tell you you have to be a certain way. And try to dress better. God. Are mirrors really that rare?

 

[Gurdur]

..... And try to dress better. God. Are mirrors really that rare?

I did try dressing better, but they gave me 6 months in jail for it.

 

[Morrigan]

Love Delvo's post. So full of cute hypocrisy, it's almost comical.

It's a harmless bit of fun and while I'm a pretty laid back good-humored guy, I have to admit, sometimes when I go to the "smelly boy's room" in that place, for a brief moment as I pass through the door, yeah, I'm annoyed, and my feelings are hurt.

...

For full disclosure, I am male.

O RLY?

 

[JimBenArm]

Yes, there is a gender war. I'm a POW.

Surrendered without a fight, I did.

 

[technoextreme]

In the good-old days, women knew their place and men were men.

In all seriousness, though, I don't think it's a war and I don't think the good-old days were honestly all that good. My best estimation is that things weren't much different at the turn of the last century than they are today, but that today we have a more specified and categorized taxonomy of terms regarding the struggles between genders (and sexuality, for that matter), so things seem to be turning toward a sharper contrast.

How's that for vague and noncommittal?

I think it is a lot better than in the good old days. I'll admit I only have my grandpa to go by but he typically does the exact opposite of what he says. It's a macho man syndrome that you can't admit to certain.
Grandpa: I hate the cat. The cat is stupid. (Which is a legitimate gripe when you are 95 years old,missing a hip).
A few weeks later.
Grandpa: The cat got outside. I got worried so I went outside looking for it. (Which is hard to do when you are 95 years old and missing a hip and live on a farm).
Awww.... You love the cat. How cute even though you would not admit it at first. It drives me bat **** crazy sometimes.

 

[Amapola]

Straight people are so cute! They think they have to be a certain way because of their chromosomes. It's all cultural. Every single little bit of it. Be who you want to be, little straight people. Don't let anybody tell you you have to be a certain way. And try to dress better. God. Are mirrors really that rare?

Isn't that just like a man! Always worrying about clothes...

 

[Stout]

I must point out that there are feminists who claim exactly that. They call it false consciousness.

Hi Mark...interesting article. I'm familiar with the basic premise but I'd never heard the term false consciousness. I guess what this boils down to, to grossly oversimplify it is a nature vs. nurture argument.

I'm leaning toward the nature side when I said what I said above.

 

[AliasN]

No, I don't think there's a war. However, I think like a lot of situations in the world, there are people trying to make it better and people trying to make it worse.

I like to think I've seen the whole spectrum of human behaviour between men and women: men treating women badly, women treating men badly, women helping men to treat them badly, men doing the same. I've also seen men and women treating each other with dignity, respect and love. Sometimes all of this within the same relationship. Humans are complicated, whatareyagonnado?

Still, humans also love to be part of a group and, as I think Hokulele pointed out, gender is a fairly easily-identified-with group. Sometimes it's fun to rally round the team and talk trash about the other one. As long as it's taken very lightly and everyone knows it's all in fun. Unfortunately, there are always idiots who are serious and wreck it for everyone else.

I grew up in the 70s and 80s where there was a lot of consciousness-raising about sexism and a lot of backlash against it. I engaged in a lot of "women are great!" arguments with the boys, although I felt I had very little ammunition for the first decade or so. It was a pretty adversarial situation, and I felt like it was eagerly encouraged. I grew out of it eventually, but a lot of people I know didn't. That's a shame, because it does strike me as particularly immature.

However, this anecdote might help with how things might be today. A few years ago my nephews were in their early teens. I was over at their house and they were out in the neighbourhood playing with a big group of friends. When they came over I started talking to them and teasing them. I said something about about hanging around with icky girls (reinforcing the adversarial thing that I was brough up with - sometimes crap like that just comes out), and they looked at me genuinely puzzled. "No, they're just our friends".

Took me about twenty-five years to learn that simple concept. They seemed to have grasped it much sooner. Maybe things are getting better...

 

[Stout]

It seems to me that that kind of choice *is* patriarchal but also just sensible - if a woman wants to be heavily involved in raising her kids. I was tempted to stay with a rich fella but in the end, because I don't want kids, I did not want to trade in my freedom for a free ride. (It wasn't the deciding factor, but it was def. there.)

I do not like the kind of feminism that says it's stupid to want to have kids and raise them yourself. Conversely I don't like the kind of tradition that says it's stupid not to want to breed. Different strokes and all that.

.

Hi Lithrael,...That's where I have 'problems" with the whole idea of false consciousness. I'm currently married to a woman whose life long goal was to have and raise kids. She comes form a wealthy family so getting any sort of education was within the realm of possibility yet she laughs at the idea that she's been somehow "conditioned" to accept a role as mother and husband.

Different strokes for sure, but I'm not really up for entertaining all this victim focus mentality that the far left constantly wallows in. I'm more of a Jessica Valenti ( Feministing dot com ) than an Andrea Dworkin type of guy.

 

[GreNME]

Straight people are so cute!

I tend to agree. Especially many of the wimmin-folk.

-----

I think it is a lot better than in the good old days. I'll admit I only have my grandpa to go by but he typically does the exact opposite of what he says. It's a macho man syndrome that you can't admit to certain.
Grandpa: I hate the cat. The cat is stupid. (Which is a legitimate gripe when you are 95 years old,missing a hip).
A few weeks later.
Grandpa: The cat got outside. I got worried so I went outside looking for it. (Which is hard to do when you are 95 years old and missing a hip and live on a farm).
Awww.... You love the cat. How cute even though you would not admit it at first. It drives me bat **** crazy sometimes.

I can relate to that. I really don't like cats-- I think they're filthy and poor companions (and I may be mildly allergic). However, when I moved in with my better half she already had cats. She's not planning on getting more, but these buggers are likely going to live to ripe old ages (two of them are 18). She regularly catches me slipping treats to one of the older cats (and thinks it's cute) and I actually get along well with the youngest (who as far as I can tell is schizophrenic).

Does that mean I actually like these cats and just won't admit it because I'm too macho? I say no: I still in general don't really like them, but I respect them enough to want them to enjoy a quality of life because someone I do love was considerate enough to give them a good home and treat them well for longer than I've been here. I care because they're part of the package I got into, and my personal opinion can be disregarded in this case because I don't really have a dislike for cats, I just don't actively like them. I treat them well as an extension to my conservationist ethic, not because I emotionally think cats are cute and lovable. My better half even knows this and she still says it's cute.

I bet your grandpa is much the same: sometimes people do what they "have" to instead of what they want to because they feel it's the right thing to do. I had a grandmother who was the same way, a tough-as-nails Appalachian coal-miner's wife who raised a bunch of kids and was as stern as can be, but she always tended to spoil all of us grandchildren and let us all think we were her favorite. Not that I'm saying things were better or worse in the "good-old days"-- I was just crackin a joke-- but I'm saying that what you relate doesn't indicate to me one way or the other but instead a different set of priorities.

 

[rustypouch]

Just a few quick thoughts.

As a young(ish) male, it does not seem like I am valued nearly as much as females of my age.

Some examples: the series of "Boys are stupid, throw rocks at them" clothing and accessories. The drastically higher rates of suicide, homeless, and workplace fatalities in men. If these situations were reversed, think how people would react.

Another that annoys me, as I am going back to school, is that at my school, there are various scholarship open exclusively to women, ethnic minorities, etc., but none for white men. I do not see how this is fair.

When I mentioned things like this, or was even upset growing up, I would mostly get the "suck it up and be a man." This just told me that my feelings were readily discounted and of no concern to me.

So I have no coherent message, just a few rambling points.