Is sleep paralysis really an explanation?

[EyeOn]

Great... another woo woo to crap in our gene pool.

And that kind of attitude is part of the problem...especially in the medical profession where this knowledge is most beneficial. Ignorance kills and it's this 'blind eye' of the scientific community that is responsible for this ignorance.

Medical advancement can only progress as far as scientific knowledge.

Whatever happened to the integrity of science???

 

[juniper_ann]

Whatever happened to the integrity of science???

Do you have any reason to question the integrity of the scientific community as a whole?

I suspect that, compared to other human activities (say, lawyering, politics, and journalism), the scientific community is a bubbling hotbed of integrity.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

And that kind of attitude is part of the problem...

What? That this is reality? That "magic" only exists in fairy tales? That we shouldn't stomach the deluded (or worse, the charlatans) who'd renounce reality in favor of magic.

To me, that "attitude" sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution to the problem... the problem of credulity.

Medical advancement can only progress as far as scientific knowledge.

Since the claims of psychic powers have no basis in science they has nothing to offer medical advancement.

Whatever happened to the integrity of science???

It's alive and well, no thanks to the supersticious fools and money-grubbing con-artists who continue to spout new age babble and pass ESP, telepathy, and other supernatural nonsense off as "science."

 

[EyeOn]

Originally Posted by cj.23
Well one would have thought the brain was involved in any experience of a human, no matter if "paranormal" or not. So really it doe snot get us very far does it?
Again, irrelevant. It's not a question of the brain being involved, it's a question of the brain causing it. The whole point of all paranormal explanations is that there is an external cause for the experiences. However, we actually know that the brain generates them all by itself. Exactly how and why it does this is irrelevant to knowing that it explains the claimed paranormal experiences.

The brain is a mechanism for complex translation of external influences to the inner environment. If the brain generates all this by itself, then the brain would be a closed system when we know the brain is an open system, because it receives influence from external sources.

 

[EyeOn]

Do you have any reason to question the integrity of the scientific community as a whole?

I suspect that, compared to other human activities (say, lawyering, politics, and journalism), the scientific community is a bubbling hotbed of integrity.

When ideas based on sound biological factors become overlooked due to the influence of popular criticism, then yes...there's reason to question the integrity within that community. Just look at the reply posted right after yours.

Prime example.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Sleep involves the pineal gland. Why wouldn't sleep paralysis?

Ah, OK, I see; now I think I understand where you are coming from.

Well, sleep is a very complex process that involves many different brain regions. Sleep paralysis depends critically on a set of cells in the brainstem (in the pons) that appear to use acetylcholine as a neurotransmitter.

Sleep, itself, is not one thing. There are many processes involved in it. There is sleep initiation which is governed by one area, the timing of sleep, which is governed by at least two areas -- one in the hypothalamus (the suprachiasmatic nucleus is one of them) and the pineal with the pineal being less important. In fact you can live without a pineal gland and sleep just fine. Then there is the shift between different stages of sleep, including the shift into and out of REM sleep.

Sleep paralysis (and we need to be very careful here in defining this state, since there seem to be folks using the words in different ways) refers to the continued state of complete and utter paralysis that naturally occurs during REM sleep, but which may persist beyond the REM state if the cells responsible for it continue to fire inappropriately (that is the putative explanation). Cataplexy is a somewhat similar state in which a person may lose all muscle tone for a brief time if excited while awake.

So, this is not a state of complete relaxation. It is actually a profound paralysis -- complete, except for the eyes and respiratory muscles, which can continue to move. If you were in a state of sleep paralysis, for instance, it would be impossible to maintain a seated position -- you would necessarily be on the floor or bed (or wherever) in a state utterly and completely unable to move even though wide awake.

Just in case there is any confusion for anyone reading this thread, sleep paralysis does not refer to the feeling of heaviness as you come out of sleep, or to states in which you are clearly dreaming (unless there is a definite association with hypnapompic hallucination, which happens but it not that common -- most folks with hypnopompic hallucinations feel weird and weak but don't really experience sleep paralysis with it in my experience). Sleep paralysis is a very, very frightening state which some in this thread have described quite well. I am a little sceptical that we are all talking about the same thing. I know from experience that there are many states associated with sleep and relaxation that folks call sleep paralysis.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

When ideas based on sound biological factors become overlooked due to the influence of popular criticism...

Science isn't determined by "ideas." It is determined by evidence.

If you can't provided testable, reproducible, evidence to your claims, kindly shut the frack up.

...then yes...there's reason to question the integrity within that community.

Wow! So it's cover up, huh? Was this same bunch responsible for the Moon hoax, the Kennedy assassination, and 9-11?

Just look at the reply posted right after yours. Prime example.

My response is a "prime example" of only one thing: How sick to death I am of watching rationality and science be figuratively gang raped by mystics, religionists, and slimeballs out to make a buck off the gullible.

 

[EyeOn]

What? That this is reality? That "magic" only exists in fairy tales? That we shouldn't stomach the deluded (or worse, the charlatans) who'd renounce reality in favor of magic.

Magic, in the tense that you define it, yes...does only exist in fairy tales. But what is magic? Magic is a deliberate manipulation of our perceptions of eyesight, hence optical illusion. Sleep paralysis and ESP activity is a fundamentally different subject.



To me, that "attitude" sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution to the problem... the problem of credulity.

Only if the attitude fits the credulity. Considering ESP activity and magic are completely different topics, this poorly applies if at all.

Since the claims of psychic powers have no basis in science they has nothing to offer medical advancement.

The term "psychic powers" is a creative expression to the mysteries of ESP activity. ESP activity is a very real and evidently a very common occurance or we wouldn't be having this debate, would we? Anything mysterious has basis in science...it's what science is all about...revealing the physiology behind mysterious behaviors and anything that can reveal mysterious biological behaviors have everything to offer to medical advancement.


It's alive and well, no thanks to the supersticious fools and money-grubbing con-artists who continue to spout new age babble and pass ESP, telepathy, and other supernatural nonsense off as "science."

And thanks to superstitious fools and moneygrubbing con artists who continue to spout their BS as ESP, telepathy and other so called "supernatural" nonsense, people like you continue to turn a blind eye.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

I'm not sure that I'm following. Why must it involve the pineal gland?

The pineal gland is directly related to the sleep and wake states. Sleep paralysis happens between these states. To induce sleep paralysis, it must involve the pineal gland to secrete the proper amount of hormones to wade between sleep and wake.

That's the logic I see in it.

Ok, you can try and say that it is logical, but I'm afraid that this is based on incorrect information.

You guys are giving the pineal gland way too much importance in this. It's role concerns only the timing of sleep and it doesn't play all that powerful a role in that process. Cut it out and folks can still sleep just fine. Sleep initiation occurs elsewhere.

The suprachiasmatic nucleus plays a much more important role in determing when we sleep -- it also receives direct retinal input. Destroy the suprachiasmatic nucleus and the circadian cycles will be disrupted. You would still sleep the same amount, because sleep is initiated in another area and the 'need for sleep' is also housed elsewhere, but you would sleep at random times not tied to normal circadian rhythms.

The pineal gland plays no role in transitions into and out of REM sleep. Those cells -- they are spread in several different brain regions but one of the key regions I have already mentioned in the pons (there are separate reticular formation areas in the medulla and midbrain that I have also mentioned in other posts) is very important for this issue. Knock it out and REM paralysis no longer occurs. The pineal doesn't even enter into it.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

If seratonin has any influence to sleep paralysis...perhaps blocking the transmittance of certain neural impulses to block movement...then the pineal gland would have direct influence to sleep paralysis...normal and abnormal. Otherwise, it's influence to sleep paralysis would be indirect in the perceptive activities that take place.

Why would that be? The primary source of serotonin in the brainstem is the median raphe nucleus. Why do you think the pineal is largely governed by serotonin? Granted, serotonin is produced in some pineal cells, but it doesn't play a role in sleep paralysis. Serotonin may play some role in the process of sleep and be important to some aspects of narcolepsy, but it doesn't seem to be all that important as far as sleep paralysis goes. There is no way I could say that it plays no role since it is likely that there is some serotonergic input into the areas responsibel for REM atonia, but I don't know the pathways in enough detail to comment.

 

[EyeOn]

In fact you can live without a pineal gland and sleep just fine.

No offense, but show me reources to back this claim. Yeah...you'll sleep just fine without a pineal gland...because you'd be dead without a pineal gland.

Considering the pineal gland controls the flow of metabolism and life systems depend on metabolism, without the pineal gland, in organisms that have a pineal gland, life would cease, because metabolism would stop.

Organisms without a pineal gland have relative organs with identical functions.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

No offense, but show me reources to back this claim. Yeah...you'll sleep just fine without a pineal gland...because you'd be dead without a pineal gland.

Considering the pineal gland controls the flow of metabolism and life systems depend on metabolism, without the pineal gland, in organisms that have a pineal gland, life would cease, because metabolism would stop.

Organisms without a pineal gland have relative organs with identical functions.

If you want sources that can be linked, then wait a minute. Otherwise, I can simply direct you to Pubmed and any textbook on neurosurgery. Pineal tumors are treated by complete resection of the gland generally.

I have no idea where you got your ideas about this gland. They are grossly in error. The pineal gland does not control the flow of metabolism and life systems. I think you are thinking of the hypothalamus.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

...because you'd be dead without a pineal gland.

Bzzzzzt... WRONG!

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

What I find interesting is that the behavior I remember seeing in my grandmother when she went into a Cataplexy seizure is the absence of any notable rising emotional states. As a contrast, I did see her in extreme states of fear particularly during violent thunderstorms. Well atoned then. Rocking and shaking on the couch with hands over her ears screaming as if she were being stabbed to death. Even under normal emotional expressions...laughing, crying, anger...she was well together. One incident that really caught attention, because of a family dog...He noticed a change and followed her and he was there to catch her. but she was just walking to and from the bathroom seemingly as nonshalant as we would all be doing such.

OK, but that's not cataplexy. Perhaps a frontal seizure or some other phenomenon, but that is not cataplexy.

Her case is actually quite unique and she's been a large part of sleep studies for many decades including Monte Fiore in NY...very well known for sleep study. Her case was considered very rare, because she expressed every known sleep disorder one can have. She had them all. Interestingly, when she died the first time when she was only a few months old...she was pronounced clinically dead from meningitis. Her sleep disorders, though diagnosed later in life, doctors and family all agree this was something she's had all her life, due to particular behaviors growing up. The reasons for this death and what brought her back to life makes sense to meningitis and might hold a clue to narcolepsy...ATP. A doctor gave the infant a heart message and gave her a dose of whiskey...and back in 1924, prior to the liquor restrictions, she probably got the good stuff. Alcohol fermentation seems to fit the criteria here of why this worked.

Good, then I'm sure that they can tell you as well that what you described above is not cataplexy.

And I'm sorry, but all sleep disorders? That makes no sense, especially as some preclude the existence of others. Perhaps if you were a bit more precise in delineating them.

Narcolepsy, cataplexy and sleep paralysis shut down the body and yeah, I can see where hallucinations would be common, because the body is suddenly vulnerable and incapable of physical defense. Sensory systems would be on high alert for any immediate danger. ATP production is critical to respiration. If there's a lack of sufficeint oxygen to an already delicate ATP system, it may be what triggers the brain to shut down the body to conserve oxygen.

Just a thought.

OK, but that has absolutely nothing to do with hypnapompic and/or hypnagogic hallucinations, which are simply dream states intruding on the waking state. ATP and oxygen have nothing to do with any of these states, beyond the fact that nothing could happen without them.

 

[Autolite]

I have had several SP episodes in my life. Some included very vivid and terrifying visual hallucinations. It had never occurred to me that they where anything other than naturally occurring, albeit bizarre, sleep disturbances. I suppose that just might be one of the advantages of being a rather simple minded individual...

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

OK, here's a quick link to a PubMed page, so that you can look at some of the varied studies on animals who have undergone pinealectomy. There are many people who have had their pineal glands removed who function just fine. You can do the searches for them yourself. But really, searching for such info on this is like searching for "is the sky blue?" No one in the medical profession has the slightest problem with pineal removal, especially if it will save a life. Are you sure you are not thinking of the hypothalamus?


Link to PubMed

 

[EyeOn]

Ok, you can try and say that it is logical, but I'm afraid that this is based on incorrect information.

What information is incorrect? Please elaborate.

You guys are giving the pineal gland way too much importance in this. It's role concerns only the timing of sleep and it doesn't play all that powerful a role in that process. Cut it out and folks can still sleep just fine. Sleep initiation occurs elsewhere.

Melatonin slows down metabolism during darkness. Pinoline speeds metabolism upon light. This enacts wakefulness and sleepiness respectively. Granted other factors do play a role in the stages of sleep, but to get there, you have to have the pineal gland to change the flow of heart rate, breathing and blood pressure for successful wake and sleep.

The suprachiasmatic nucleus plays a much more important role in determing when we sleep -- it also receives direct retinal input.

And the pineal gland secretes pinoline that is found in the retina. The possibility of a direct influence is very much there.

Destroy the suprachiasmatic nucleus and the circadian cycles will be disrupted. You would still sleep the same amount, because sleep is initiated in another area and the 'need for sleep' is also housed elsewhere, but you would sleep at random times not tied to normal circadian rhythms.

There seems to be a confusion with suprachiasmatic nucleus...which is located in the hypothalamus and the pineal gland, located in the thalami halves. Yes, of course you would sleep the same being the suprachiasmatic nucleus is indirect with sleep.

The pineal gland plays no role in transitions into and out of REM sleep.

But it does play a role in the transition between wake and sleep, which is the core to sleep paralysis...being in transition between wake and sleep rather than transitions between the different sleep stages. This is clearly shown in those who experience sleep paralysis going into REM sleep from wakefulness. All those other sleep stages are missed.

Those cells -- they are spread in several different brain regions but one of the key regions I have already mentioned in the pons (there are separate reticular formation areas in the medulla and midbrain that I have also mentioned in other posts) is very important for this issue. Knock it out and REM paralysis no longer occurs. The pineal doesn't even enter into it.

That's REM paralysis rather than REM sleep. The pineal enters into it as an influence to the rate in which the transitions between wakefulness and REM sleep happen due to its direct influence to the rate of metabolism.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

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That's REM paralysis rather than REM sleep. The pineal enters into it as an influence to the rate in which the transitions between wakefulness and REM sleep happen due to its direct influence to the rate of metabolism.

Almost every bit of information in that post is simply incorrect. Where did you get this information?

 

[EyeOn]

Why would that be? The primary source of serotonin in the brainstem is the median raphe nucleus. Why do you think the pineal is largely governed by serotonin? Granted, serotonin is produced in some pineal cells, but it doesn't play a role in sleep paralysis.

How do you know that serotonin doesn't play a role in sleep paralysis? Especially when you do know...

Serotonin may play some role in the process of sleep and be important to some aspects of narcolepsy,

And how can you be so sure...

but it doesn't seem to be all that important as far as sleep paralysis goes.

When sleep paralysis is very much a part of narcolepsy. Granted sleep paralysis can manifest without the onset of narcolepsy, but sleep paralysis always seems to be in association with narcolepsy.

There is no way I could say that it plays no role since it is likely that there is some serotonergic input into the areas responsibel for REM atonia, but I don't know the pathways in enough detail to comment.

And the mysteries of sleep continue...

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

What information is incorrect? Please elaborate.[/QUOTE]

I did up above in previous posts. Please read them.

Melatonin slows down metabolism during darkness. Pinoline speeds metabolism upon light. This enacts wakefulness and sleepiness respectively. Granted other factors do play a role in the stages of sleep, but to get there, you have to have the pineal gland to change the flow of heart rate, breathing and blood pressure for successful wake and sleep.

Melatonin does none of those things. Melatonin plays a role in getting you to sleep when it is dark. That's it. It isn't some magic powder. It has nothing whatsoever to do with waking and has no impact on heart rate, breathing, blood pressure. Those functions are all carried out by other brain regions. Most of the regulation of heart rate, blood pressure, etc, is governed by the solitary nucleus in the medulla. But the hypothalamus plays an important 'supervisory role' in all of this.

And the pineal gland secretes pinoline that is found in the retina. The possibility of a direct influence is very much there.

What possibility of direct influence? You have made extravagent claims for the role of the pineal and melatonin, none of which is supported by any reliable information. People have the gland removed and are otherwise fine. I really have no idea what you are talking about now.

There seems to be a confusion with suprachiasmatic nucleus...which is located in the hypothalamus and the pineal gland, located in the thalami halves. Yes, of course you would sleep the same being the suprachiasmatic nucleus is indirect with sleep.

The pineal gland is not located between the masses of the thalami. It is located posterior to the brainstem and is attached to it by a stalk. It's primary importance in medicine and neurology is that tumors may arise in it and press on the tectum causing Perinaud's syndrome. Between the "halves of the thalami" is the massa intermedia.

There is no confusion on my part about where these structures are or what they do. I teach this stuff to residents.

But it does play a role in the transition between wake and sleep, which is the core to sleep paralysis...being in transition between wake and sleep rather than transitions between the different sleep stages. This is clearly shown in those who experience sleep paralysis going into REM sleep from wakefulness. All those other sleep stages are missed.

It plays a minor role in determining the timing of sleep in relation to light cycles. That is it. It has nothing to do with sleep paralysis. I already gave you an outline of the important structures involved in sleep paralysis -- they are nowhere near the pineal gland. If you want to argue that hypocretin is important to this process, then fine. But that is not a pineal issue. Melatonin has nothing to do with it.

Stop conjecturing, please, and pick up a textbook and learn the facts.