Is sleep paralysis really an explanation?

[Cuddles]

Well one would have thought the brain was involved in any experience of a human, no matter if "paranormal" or not. So really it doe snot get us very far does it?

Again, irrelevant. It's not a question of the brain being involved, it's a question of the brain causing it. The whole point of all paranormal explanations is that there is an external cause for the experiences. However, we actually know that the brain generates them all by itself. Exactly how and why it does this is irrelevant to knowing that it explains the claimed paranormal experiences.

Sure we understand what atonia is - just not how it works. We have some ideas, but nothing solid yet. So the even more confusing issue of why occasionally atonia might persist in to consciousness after the cessation of REM sleep - let's face it, it's still a mystery!

Yes, that's what I said. We don't know exactly how it works. This has nothing to do with it being an explanation for many paranormal experiences.

No, germ theory is quite independent of the antibiotics efficacy. The latter can be demonstrated by medical trails and statistics, even if we are unsure of the physiological aspects. Even then we can't be sure that the antibiotic action and illness ending are definitely linked - correlation is not causality, and other factors may be involved. A good medical statistician ca make an overwhelming case though.

It's not for all disease though is it? Prion disorders spring to mind immediately - cancer - etc, etc. And we might understand the principle, I think we do, but we still really should admit that we have very little evidence for any underlying model of the causality

You appear to have completely missed the point of the analogy. Understanding exactly how and why certain germs cause certain diseases has nothing to do with the fact that they are caused by germs. In fact, that germs don't explain all disease just makes the analogy more accurate, since sleep paralysis certainly doesn't explain all paranormal experiences. Just think back to when antibiotics were first invented. No-one had any idea how penicillin worked, but they certainly knew that it did work. Sleep paralysis is the same. We may not know exactly how it causes certain experiences, but we know that it does cause them.

 

[aggle-rithm]

Sleep paralysis, from what I've experienced starting 26 years ago, seems to hold a 'key' into ESP activity...explaining the hows and whys behind the perceptions and the perceptions are significant to the individual experiencing sleep paralysis or to someone they've been in close contact with.

Sleep paralysis, other sleep disturbances, and dreams are often misinterpreted because the person's perception is altered. The experience seems highly significant, so the cause is often presumed to be highly significant as well. However, it is known that certain functions of the brain (such as emotional response) can be hyper-activated during REM sleep, while certain others (such as cognition) can be suppressed. How could we possibly make an objective judgment on what we have experienced, if the brain isn't working the way it normally does?

You seem like a smart person, so please try to consider this possibility: If the part of our brain that determines whether an experience is significant or not is altered, wouldn't that open the door for us to misinterpret the experience?

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Thanks very much, yes that sounds like the a very good summary of best model as far as my limited reading over the last two days shows. I'm very interested indeed, as it's a fairly common experience and I suspect solving it once and for all will lead us forward. I'm planning to review the medical literature over the next few days, and then I'll post a quick summary.

Again - i don't think it's any kind of woo - I'm pretty certain it has a sound neurological basis - I just don't think we should stop searching for that quite yet!

cj x

Hypocretin is involved in the process somehow as well in a way that we don't completely understand.

There is clearly some sort of intricate balancing act that is disruped by hypocretin absence -- since this is potentially one of the primary causes of narcolepsy. We still don't know what is going on with that whole story, though, since it may be an absence of the target cells in humans. Whatever is the case, human narcolepsy differs from dog narcolepsy.

The cardinal features of narcolepsy, for those who do not know, are hynogogic/hypnopompic hallucinations (dreams in the waking state), sleep paralysis, cataplexy, and sleep attacks.

Cataplexy is a complete loss of tone during the waking state -- somewhat similar to sleep paralysis, but sleep paralysis occurs going into or coming out of sleep while cataplexy occurs in association with emotional states/laughing/etc.

ETA:

Don't think anyone's stopped searching for a full explanation. It's just that the reticular system is a bit of a black box. We don't have nice, easily dilenated pathways through it, and most of what is there is polysynaptic mush -- very difficult to understand when you use a "the first neuron connects to the second neuron" model.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

It's not for all disease though is it? Prion disorders spring to mind immediately - cancer - etc, etc. And we might understand the principle, I think we do, but we still really should admit that we have very little evidence for any underlying model of the causality

But no one supposes that the germ theory accounts for all disease.

An old department chair used to say that there are really only three categories of disease: bad make, bad luck, and worn out.

Bad luck covers the germs. And some cancers and actually some prion diseases (some of both the previous examples are covered under bad make as well) And buses and bullets. And irate spouses with meat cleavers and a mean disposition......

 

[Sunstar]

When you deliberately keep your body motionless for over 20 minutes (if you are lucky) you can enter sleep paralysis consciously where the body is asleep and the mind is awake, wherein you get hypnagogic experiences.

I suspect hypnopompic hallucinations have a more profound effect than hypnagogic ones, but i have to experiment more.

Someone mentioned the pineal gland. It is known that if you lift your eyeballs up when you relax (with eyes closed) it helps to induce an alpha state. Someone also mentioned the medulla part of the brain. I am guessing that when you lift your eyes it affects the nerves going to the pineal gland and medulla. It has something to do with the right vagus nerve, which goes from the brain to the heart. In yoga terminology, the vagus nerve corresponds to the "kundalini".

There is a technique in Yoga where you place your fingers against your eyeballs which affects the vagus nerve. It slows down some of the heart action, which means the blood flow to the brain is decreased somewhat. Also, it squeezes the light photons in the eyes. When you do this, it seems to also affect the visual cortex and you start to see lights, ie the near death experience.

When i meditate i can slow down my breathing rate to 4 breaths per minute effortlessly without force or holding.

Sleep paralysis must involve the pineal gland because apparently melatonin is released from this gland at night due to darkness. And it makes sense that DMT is involved because it is involved with dreams.

In the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna tells his disciple that Yogis use the nighttime hours to meditate and they "sleep" during the day.

I have experienced partial sleep paralysis with Binaural Beat technology and had images pop into my mind that were solutions to problems in my life. I have also had dreams that came true later. The explanation for this is, i believe, that when you are sleeping the mind is calmer than normal, so later on in your life when the dream "comes true" it flashes back, so to speak.

Just some thoughts.

PS i'm not a woo woo-ist. And quite frankly when i read some of the exhanges on this forum i feel like punching someone for the sheer rudeness of them. It is like people have to be deliberately condescending for no apparent reason. Probably fear.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

When you deliberately keep your body motionless for over 20 minutes (if you are lucky) you can enter sleep paralysis consciously where the body is asleep and the mind is awake, wherein you get hypnagogic experiences.

Very interesting. I wonder if the same pathways are involved or different ones.

Someone mentioned the pineal gland. It is known that if you lift your eyeballs up when you relax (with eyes closed) it helps to induce an alpha state.

My nit-picky neurology training is going to come out, but the pineal gland doesn't really have anything to do with lifting the eyes up. Pineal tumors can press on the tectum and cause an inability to look up, but the ability to look up does not arise in the pineal, but in the tectum.

The alpha "state" on EEG is seen when people relax with eyes closed -- sometimes, but not usually, with eyes open. Rolling eyes up essentially closes them (it obstructs the light coming through the pupils). Whenever we close our eyes, they roll up/back. It's a natural response.

Someone also mentioned the medulla part of the brain. I am guessing that when you lift your eyes it affects the nerves going to the pineal gland and medulla. It has something to do with the right vagus nerve, which goes from the brain to the heart. In yoga terminology, the vagus nerve corresponds to the "kundalini".

Yes, the vagus arises from the nucleus ambiguus in the medulla, but lifting eyes is coordinated in the midbrain tectum. There is a bundle of nuclei in the midline that are involved in coordinating eye movements, but this bundle is not associated with the nucleus ambiguus as far as I know. But none of us know all that much about the brain stem.

A double yes for knowing that it is the right vagus nerve that goes to the heart in most people. There are several weird connections between brain stem and heart that we simply do not understand. Seizures (arising in cortex, but possibly coordinated in the brain stem), for instance, can possibly cause the heart to stop (sudden death in epilepsy) and there are people who also seem to have primary cardiac problems (arrhythmias) who may have seizures as a result.

Sleep paralysis must involve the pineal gland because apparently melatonin is released from this gland at night due to darkness. And it makes sense that DMT is involved because it is involved with dreams.

I know you are simply conjecturing here, but I am not aware of any research linking the pineal gland to sleep paralysis. Melatonin seems to be more involved in setting sleep-wake cycles. Most of the machinery for REM sleep seems to be in the brain stem proper.

 

[Elvis666]

Having experienced sleep paralysis several times in my life. I have to say that you'd have to be crazy if you think aliens were responsible. Also, I've been able to break out of this paralysis several times and I tell yah, there were no little green men standing by my bed.

I can't agree with the crazy part. This happened to me for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I was asleep on the couch in the middle of the night and heard somthing moving around in the kitchen behind me. When I tried to turn and see what it was, I could not move. When I finally forced myself up, I woke up and found myself still sitting on the couch. This happened a couple of more times before I really managed to wake up.

Each time, the sounds coming out of the kitchen were completely convincing. When I finally woke up, I realized that had happened and even though of the thread on it that appeared here a few weeks ago.

If I were a little younger and/or more impressionable, I might not have realized that everything that happened before I was able to wake up and stand was some kind of dream. But I don't think it would require insanity.

 

[MoonDragn]

Crazy to think that some aliens could be causing your paralysis. Not doubting you had sleep paralysis. Thinking aliens did it though, that isn't logical.

 

[Sunstar]

I know you are simply conjecturing here, but I am not aware of any research linking the pineal gland to sleep paralysis. Melatonin seems to be more involved in setting sleep-wake cycles. Most of the machinery for REM sleep seems to be in the brain stem proper.[/quote]

Nice response. I am not a student of anatomy but i didn't say that the pineal gland was linked to sleep paralysis. All i said was that it secretes melatonin which happens when it gets dark.

I was talking primarily about consciously inducing the sleep paralysis state. And that this must involve the pineal gland.

You said that when we close our eyes we tend to lift our eyeballs. Can you give any evidence for this?

I don't think that is true. I think that when people close their eyes they tend to stay in the centre, when in sleep the eyes tend to droop, and when in "trance" the eyes go upwards.

Again, you said that there are no known connections between the pineal and medullar regions, but the pineal channels light, and it goes through the nerves of the brain to the visual cortex, which recedes somewhat in classical NDE and OBE research. No doubt there is a connection between the involuntary functions of the medulla and heart and the pineal gland, eyes, and visual cortex.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Nice response. I am not a student of anatomy but i didn't say that the pineal gland was linked to sleep paralysis. All i said was that it secretes melatonin which happens when it gets dark.

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood.

I was talking primarily about consciously inducing the sleep paralysis state. And that this must involve the pineal gland.

I'm not sure that I'm following. Why must it involve the pineal gland?

You said that when we close our eyes we tend to lift our eyeballs. Can you give any evidence for this?

Sure. Ever see someone with Bell's palsy? -- on the affected side you can see the eye roll up when they try to close their eyelid, which is weak.

The other clear evidence is from EEGs. The eyes are a dipole and when you blink (close eyes) the eyes roll up -- on the EEG there is a clear response with each eye blink, initially positive, then negative.

I don't think that is true. I think that when people close their eyes they tend to stay in the centre, when in sleep the eyes tend to droop, and when in "trance" the eyes go upwards.

Sorry, not true. When going to sleep your eyes do several things. Initially, as people become drowsy their eyes roll a bit up, then to the sides, then down, etc. -- all reflected on the EEG. While asleep eyes are usually in the midposition. During REM sleep the eyes dart in many different directions. I don't now about trance directly, but I would assume that eyes would go up, since the eyes are usually closed.

Again, you said that there are no known connections between the pineal and medullar regions, but the pineal channels light, and it goes through the nerves of the brain to the visual cortex, which recedes somewhat in classical NDE and OBE research. No doubt there is a connection between the involuntary functions of the medulla and heart and the pineal gland, eyes, and visual cortex.

There are connections amongst most areas of the brain. The pineal receives light directly from the retina, not from the visual cortex. At least, off the top of my head, I can't recall any direct connections between the visual cortex and the pineal gland.

There are direct connections between the medulla and heart through the vagus and through other connections involving the the solitary nucleus. There are some indirect connections between the pineal, hypothalamus and midbrain. All of this stuff is connected together, so there are very indirect connections between the medulla and the rest of it -- but it would be difficult to show how that could be related to sleep paralysis.

 

[billydkid]

I get that out of body/sleep paralysis thing fairly frequently - sometimes depending on what drug I'm taking. It is always just boring. Typically I pop "out of my body", rotate and stick my head in the closest. In my sleep I actually complain about it like "Is that it?" "This is the best you can do - stick your head in the closet"? It's ridiculous. This is what I hate about dreams - they almost invariably go exactly opposite of the way you want them to go.

 

[Sunstar]

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood.



I'm not sure that I'm following. Why must it involve the pineal gland?


Sleep involves the pineal gland. Why wouldn't sleep paralysis?

 

[Mister Earl]

I vividly recall one bout of sleep paralysis I had when I was six years old. I woke up, couldn't move, was in a deep state of terror, and vividly saw myself being eaten alive by... smurfs. I kid you not. Lasted about five crazy minutes until I fully "came to" and sat up. No smurfs.

 

[pastime]

Every so often, I wake up in the morning and I feel like I can't move. I can't move, in other words. It takes a little time (probably seconds - but it's hard to tell when you're trying to tell yourself that panic is not an appropriate response), but up until now, with some conscious effort, I have managed to "figure out" how to make my arms and legs move. It's kind of scary, but once I force a knee (or something) to bend everything is back to whatever I consider normal and I can roll out to the shower.
Although I don't know what causes this phenomenon, it never occurred to me that there was not a rational explanation.
Maybe I'm missing the point.

 

[EyeOn]

Sleep paralysis, other sleep disturbances, and dreams are often misinterpreted because the person's perception is altered. The experience seems highly significant, so the cause is often presumed to be highly significant as well. However, it is known that certain functions of the brain (such as emotional response) can be hyper-activated during REM sleep, while certain others (such as cognition) can be suppressed. How could we possibly make an objective judgment on what we have experienced, if the brain isn't working the way it normally does?

You seem like a smart person, so please try to consider this possibility: If the part of our brain that determines whether an experience is significant or not is altered, wouldn't that open the door for us to misinterpret the experience?

I believe the best way to approach interpretation is with a good sense of psychology and a good solid understanding of biology, physics and certainly chemistry…everything is chemical. It all boils down to this atom reacting with that atom due to the quantum mechanics involved. It’s still physical.

The perceptions themselves to the individual are unique to the individual as well as what we do know about automatic behavior and how the brain is very individualized with what is learned verses what is instinctive. Peel back the creative layers of expression, you will find the raw instinctive patterns that play out with or without our awareness. The brain is a marvelous tool.

Perceptions are way too variable to test. It’s a weak support for the argument for the reasons you’ve stated and this is where most, if not all tests meant to be in favor of ESP activity fail. These tests leave out the obvious of what we already know about the brain and the senses. The brain relies on the senses completely. What’s stored ‘upstairs’ has every influence to what we do sense. Our brains are smarter than we are, but the expressions of life experiences are creatively our own. It is the activity itself, what we know of chemical communication that makes it a bit easier to understand what is really going on.

Take the psychology that does matter in these cases and line it up with what is known in the life sciences down to its very chemical identity.

 

[JWideman]

Every so often, I wake up in the morning and I feel like I can't move. I can't move, in other words. It takes a little time (probably seconds - but it's hard to tell when you're trying to tell yourself that panic is not an appropriate response), but up until now, with some conscious effort, I have managed to "figure out" how to make my arms and legs move. It's kind of scary, but once I force a knee (or something) to bend everything is back to whatever I consider normal and I can roll out to the shower.
Although I don't know what causes this phenomenon, it never occurred to me that there was not a rational explanation.
Maybe I'm missing the point.

Yeah, that's a very mild form of sleep paralysis. More extreme cases involve hallucinations and feelings of fear, though the fear may be a result of the situation.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

...but it's a little more than what people generally think and ESP type activities is something other than what the scientific community has defined it to be. Let's take the latter and think...really think hard about the definition of ESP.

Great... another woo woo to crap in our gene pool.

 

[EyeOn]

Cataplexy is a complete loss of tone during the waking state -- somewhat similar to sleep paralysis, but sleep paralysis occurs going into or coming out of sleep while cataplexy occurs in association with emotional states/laughing/etc.

What I find interesting is that the behavior I remember seeing in my grandmother when she went into a Cataplexy seizure is the absence of any notable rising emotional states. As a contrast, I did see her in extreme states of fear particularly during violent thunderstorms. Well atoned then. Rocking and shaking on the couch with hands over her ears screaming as if she were being stabbed to death. Even under normal emotional expressions...laughing, crying, anger...she was well together. One incident that really caught attention, because of a family dog...He noticed a change and followed her and he was there to catch her. but she was just walking to and from the bathroom seemingly as nonshalant as we would all be doing such.

Her case is actually quite unique and she's been a large part of sleep studies for many decades including Monte Fiore in NY...very well known for sleep study. Her case was considered very rare, because she expressed every known sleep disorder one can have. She had them all. Interestingly, when she died the first time when she was only a few months old...she was pronounced clinically dead from meningitis. Her sleep disorders, though diagnosed later in life, doctors and family all agree this was something she's had all her life, due to particular behaviors growing up. The reasons for this death and what brought her back to life makes sense to meningitis and might hold a clue to narcolepsy...ATP. A doctor gave the infant a heart message and gave her a dose of whiskey...and back in 1924, prior to the liquor restrictions, she probably got the good stuff. Alcohol fermentation seems to fit the criteria here of why this worked.

Narcolepsy, cataplexy and sleep paralysis shut down the body and yeah, I can see where hallucinations would be common, because the body is suddenly vulnerable and incapable of physical defense. Sensory systems would be on high alert for any immediate danger. ATP production is critical to respiration. If there's a lack of sufficeint oxygen to an already delicate ATP system, it may be what triggers the brain to shut down the body to conserve oxygen.

Just a thought.

 

[EyeOn]

I know you are simply conjecturing here, but I am not aware of any research linking the pineal gland to sleep paralysis. Melatonin seems to be more involved in setting sleep-wake cycles. Most of the machinery for REM sleep seems to be in the brain stem proper.

If seratonin has any influence to sleep paralysis...perhaps blocking the transmittance of certain neural impulses to block movement...then the pineal gland would have direct influence to sleep paralysis...normal and abnormal. Otherwise, it's influence to sleep paralysis would be indirect in the perceptive activities that take place.

 

[EyeOn]

I'm not sure that I'm following. Why must it involve the pineal gland?

The pineal gland is directly related to the sleep and wake states. Sleep paralysis happens between these states. To induce sleep paralysis, it must involve the pineal gland to secrete the proper amount of hormones to wade between sleep and wake.

That's the logic I see in it.