Is Mark Basile's WTC Dust Study Pointless?

What I think I should have asked for initially is for someone to go through all the numbered tests in the opening post and predict what the result would be and why under 2 different sets of conditions:

Condition 1: If the chips were not some form of thermite
Condition 2: If the chips were some form of thermite

That's what I was trying to understand.

The study is pointless.

There is no damage to any WTC steel, or anything from thermite.
There is no iron from a thermite reaction, planted by some people who 911 truth can't name, or explain.
Thermite was made up by Jones due to his personal biases against war or Bush, camouflaged in BS that he was once an official story believer.

Can't believe 911 truth nuts take Jones made up observation and turn it into a religion of woo, the church of thermite, based on faith.

If people can't figure out thermite is a lie, they are gullible.

Four years after 911, Jones makes up thermite, and cult members in 911 truth eat it up and repeat it as if it was the "truth".
6. The observations of molten metal (I did not say molten steel!) in the basements of all three buildings, WTC 1, 2 and 7 is consistent with the use of the extremely high-temperature thermite reaction: iron oxide + aluminum powder --> Al2O3 + molten iron. Falling buildings are not observed to generate melting of large quantities of molten metal -- this requires a concentrated heat source such as explosives. Even the government reports admit that the fires were insufficient to melt steel beams (they argue for heating and warping then failure of these beams) -- but these reports do not mention the observed molten metal in the basements of WTC1, 2 and 7. Again we have a glaring omission of critical data in the FEMA, NIST and 9-11 Commission reports.
There as no melted steel, no piles of iron from thermite found; yet Jones makes this up based on nothing, but opinion based on hearsay, and his own lies.

Melted metal is found in fires, and it is not iron or steel in the WTC. Jones lied and now failed 911 truth cult members are doing studies on dust, and they skip the evidence part, and go for the fantasy born in an old man's bias mind. Jones lied, and 911 truth worships his fantasy as truth. A cult is born, next stop, wooville.
 
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What I think I should have asked for initially is for someone to go through all the numbered tests in the opening post and predict what the result would be and why under 2 different sets of conditions:

Condition 1: If the chips were not some form of thermite
Condition 2: If the chips were some form of thermite

That's what I was trying to understand.

I think the most appropriate question about the test proposal would be: What questions is the test supposed to answer, and are the methods appropriate to answer that question and leave as little doubt as possible? Is the study well-designed?

I am not sure what Basile's question actually is.



Now on to your request: I propose that we look at two competing hypotheses. Your condition 1 isn't well defined; it is hard to make specific predictions for "anything else but".

So allow me to make predictions for the two main Hypotheses:

A. Each chips represents one of several red primer paints on spalled, oxidized structural steel
B. Each chip represents some preparation of nano-thermite of the Al+Fe2O3 persuasion, mixed with some other, yet to be determined matrix materials

1. - Red/gray chip separation using optical microscopy and magnetic attraction to assist in isolation of particles of interest.
These (and none other, except of course that the source material is dust collected very near GZ very soon after the tower collapses) are the two selection criteria that Harrit e.al. describe in their study to determine which particles to study and which to leave out.
This begs the question if all particles thusly selected are the same material. Harrit e.al. are utterly unclear on this question: On the one hand, they talk about at least 6 different kinds of such red-gray chips in their study (distinguishable by presence or absence of significant chemical elements in either the red or the gray layer), but treat them as if they were still all basically the same material. They claim that all such chips, whatever their detailed make-up, react thermitically, and all have properties different from (some arbitrary, unidentified) paint. But when James Millette followed the same selection procedure and proved that there are magnetic and red-gray chips, that even match Harrit's "main" specimens (Fig. 2-11) in great detail of elemental composition and microscopic structure, that definitely contain no thermite at all and instead contain nothing but ingredients that are universally typical for primer paint, the Harrit-Team accused him of selcting the wrong chips, demanding that he use further selcection criteria, which Harrit e.al. themselves did not employ consistently, if at all.

So I predict that
A. If Basile's new study shows no thermite, Harrit and colleagues will say he used the wrong selection method
B. If Basile's new study shows paint, Harrit and colleagues will say he used the correct selection method

The difference in result is one of consistency with expectation.


2. - Optical images of collected particulates as collected at appropriate magnifications to record condition as collected.
In either case, particles will look brightly, clearly red just like paint, and gray and shiny, just like oxidized steel.

This method would do nothing to differentiate between the hypotheses. However, I guess it is good practice to show your specimens.


3. - SEM/EDX with elemental quantification of red/gray chips, both red and gray layers.
A. Element quantities will be consistent with common organic binders (mainly C and O in the EDX spectra) making up >50% of the mass of the chips; iron oxide (Fe2O3) making up a substantial proportion of the rest, but less than 30% of the total mass; elements such as Si, Ca, Al that are common in many minerals commonly used in paints as cheap filler; and lesser amounts of elements typical for corrosion-inhibiting salts, such as Cr, Zn, Pb, Sr.
In any case, there will be a LOT more Fe than Al, if there is Al at all. If there is Al, it will be paired with equal or higher amounts of Si and/or Ca.
B. Fe and Al should be present in 1:1 molar proportions or very close to it. Both should make up >50% of the mass of the red layer, while organic materials (C, O) should be far under 30%.

4. FTIR analysis of organic components of red/gray chips, both red and gray layers.
Would not be certain to differentiate the hypotheses, as for example epoxy, which can be identified with FTIR, has been described as the matrix material for both steel primers and thermite compositions. However, some organic components would be highly typical for paints and have very little use in energetic materials (e.g. hardened oils), or vice versa. The possibilities are manyfold, can't predict them all.


5. ESCA small spot technique with argon ion sputter for depth profiling to definitively establish the presence of elemental aluminum within the red layer of the red/gray chips. Scans of gray layer also to be taken to add to information base.
I don't know / understand that method, so I don't know if it really does competently what Basile wants to use it for.
IF that technique can in fact identify or rule out elemental Al, then of course...
A. Find no elemental Al
B. Find lots of elemental Al


6. DSC analysis of red/gray chips focusing on exothermic/endothermic reactions near 400 degrees C. Some chips to be scanned in inert atmosphere and some in air or oxygen containing gas stream.
First of all, I'd demand that the red layer be separated from the gray layer, and both be tested in separation. They way Harrit e.al. did their DSC tests, they KNEW they had (on average) >50% by mass chemically inert gray mass, that nonetheless might show some thermal reactions (phase changes). It makes it unnecessarily difficult to interprete the results if you don't separate materials.

Doing the DSC-test under air, knowing that the red layer contains significant amounts of organic matrix, is a near useless excercise:
A. As there are so many different kinds of paint with a number of different organic binders in varying amounts, it is near impossible to predict shape, position and features of the DSC-traces; except of course that almost all organic materials release a lot more energy than any thermit composition.
B. Truthers find more and more papers where energetic nano-materials are developed and tested - and they show peaks and curves and ignition temperatures all over the place.
It follows: You can't tell for certain from the DSC-data what class of materials you are testing.

7. SEM/EDX with elemental quantification of residual products of DSC analysis of red/gray chips.
Would not help much to differentiate the hypotheses. In both materials, organic binder would decompose and burn - and what else happens is near impossible to predict.
Basically, organic material would largely vaporized, i.e. C and O would be depleted in the solid reaction products, but metals would still be there in almost the same proportions as before.

SEM/EDX is not a very good method to identify chemical compounds or tell them apart from elements.

8. Optical images of reaction products after DSC experiments.
Would not be of great help
A. You'd expect the iron oxide to not react at all, so unless charring is heavy, you'd still see red material.
B. The red color should largely or completely disappear, as the red pigments (Fe2O3) are supposed to react and thus "disappear" (turn into something else - elemental iron).



Basile ought to add at least one other method to directly and unequivocally identify compounds; P-XRD is an excellent tool, almost all studies on nanothermite that truthers like to cite use it. Basile should most definitely look for, and quantify, all of the following both before and after burning samples:
Al
Al-oxide
Fe
Fe-oxide

Only if you find significant Al + Fe-oxide BEFORE the reaction, little to none of both AFTER, but instead find lots of Al-oxide + Fe AFTER and none or little BEFORE, can youi be sure that the thermite reaction actually happened.

P-XRD can identify all four substances for you. Steven Jones did it, but never published results.

Of course, you'd not predict much Al in any paint, and you'd not predict that Al2O3 is found in paint only after burning.

Another good method to identify individual particles of metals and metal oxides is TEM-SAED. Jeff Farrer did it, but never published results.
 
Only if you find significant Al + Fe-oxide BEFORE the reaction, little to none of both AFTER, but instead find lots of Al-oxide + Fe AFTER and none or little BEFORE, can youi be sure that the thermite reaction actually happened.

P-XRD can identify all four substances for you. Steven Jones did it, but never published results.
Of course, you'd not predict much Al in any paint, and you'd not predict that Al2O3 is found in paint only after burning.

Another good method to identify individual particles of metals and metal oxides is TEM-SAED. Jeff Farrer did it, but never published results.

Precisely! That's why I'm calling humbug on the whole operation! As I said in the other Basile thread:

I'm calling "shenanigans" on the whole thing.

It would take less than an hour to set up an ignition test under an inert atmosphere. If it doesn't ignite, you know it's not thermite, though you don't know exactly what it is. You announce your result and ask if your contributors want you to go on.

If it does ignite, you announce it! Even though you still don't know what it is, it passed the first test! Your contributors will be begging for more tests and will be chipping in dollars aplenty.

Humbug!:mad:

The failure of Truthers to publish their results, and their failure to pursue obvious lines of research, is proof enough of their basic dishonesty.
 
Redwood, you are to good for this world of Twoof!
...
It would take less than an hour to set up an ignition test under an inert atmosphere. If it doesn't ignite, you know it's not thermite, ...
I can't remember where I read this the other day, BUT Steven Jones already has his excuse ready for that case: He says they (i.e., I suppose, Kevin Ryan) have prepared some sol-gel nano-thermite, tried to ignite it under inert gas and - failed. Therefore, he blathers, non-ignition of the chips would not disprove thermite!

What this really means of course is: Any kind of "ignition test", whether DSC or whatnot, is useless.

In the end, they must prove that there is elemental Al - and not just some bit in some chip, but major amounts everywhere; and that, after ignition, you have lots of Al-oxide that wasn't there before. Harrit e.al. never showed either.

Not sure if Basile is going to attack on that angle.
What's the use of DSC, if Jones isn't sure whether or not to use inert gas, and isn't sure whether or not thermite would fire under inert gas? DSC simply means nothing at all.
 
Thanks for that, Oystein. Very clear explanations.
The pointless part is the Harrit team already claims to have done the tests that could identify the material conclusively. They refuse to release the data. Does any one really need to wonder why they would hold back on a slam dunk? :boggled:
 
...
Of course, you'd not predict much Al in any paint, and you'd not predict that Al2O3 is found in paint only after burning. ...
Which paint?

http://periodictable.com/Items/013.14/index.html
He expected to add it.
http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/alpaint.html
and he wants to make rocket fuel
https://www.alcoa.com/primary_na/en/product_info_page_cat.asp?info_page_id=824&cat_id=255
Alcoa does it for paint since 1910
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-different-uses-of-aluminum-powder.htm
The wise geek says, "Powdered aluminum is included in many paints and sealants"
http://www.rust-oleum.eu/cms/publish/content/showpage.asp?pageid=136
With some epoxy, to fool 911 truth nuts
And aluminum oxide is used in paint too.



A failed movement of lies, 911 truth to test for something that has no evidence being used on 911. Like testing for GSR when a baseball bat was used.
 
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Further evidence that "nano-thermite" is the most useless stuff, ever!

Redwood, you are to good for this world of Twoof!

I can't remember where I read this the other day, BUT Steven Jones already has his excuse ready for that case: He says they (i.e., I suppose, Kevin Ryan) have prepared some sol-gel nano-thermite, tried to ignite it under inert gas and - failed. Therefore, he blathers, non-ignition of the chips would not disprove thermite!

In which case, I certainly hope he saved a sample of it for independent testing! ;) This is truly miraculous stuff, in a reverse sort of way: it actually requires atmospheric oxygen for initiation! Add that to the long lists of drawbacks to "nano-thermite". It's like an anti-alchemy that turns gold into lead! :boggled:

I wonder how they managed to ignite it in the "oxygen-starved fires" area of the impacts? :rolleyes:
 
So I predict that
A. If Basile's new study shows no thermite, Harrit and colleagues will say he used the wrong selection method
B. If Basile's new study shows paint, Harrit and colleagues will say he used the correct selection method

The difference in result is one of consistency with expectation.
You lost me with (B).


2. - Optical images of collected particulates as collected at appropriate magnifications to record condition as collected.
In either case, particles will look brightly, clearly red just like paint, and gray and shiny, just like oxidized steel.

This method would do nothing to differentiate between the hypotheses. However, I guess it is good practice to show your specimens.
Not by itself. But it's complementary to other methods. For example, it revealed the presence of kaolinite in the Harrit et al. paper, confirmed by XEDS.


8. Optical images of reaction products after DSC experiments.
Would not be of great help
A. You'd expect the iron oxide to not react at all, so unless charring is heavy, you'd still see red material.
B. The red color should largely or completely disappear, as the red pigments (Fe2O3) are supposed to react and thus "disappear" (turn into something else - elemental iron).
That was already the case in the Harrit et al. paper, the red particles are still there post-DSC. That has been pointed out in numerous occasions but no explanation has been given yet. It has not been considered relevant, for some reason, despite being strong evidence against a thermite reaction.
 
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You lost me with (B).
D'uh, editing error on my part. Should of course have been:
"B. If Basile's new study shows thermite, Harrit and colleagues will say he used the correct selection method"


Not by itself. But it's complementary to other methods. For example, it revealed the presence of kaolinite in the Harrit et al. paper, confirmed by XEDS.
No, your example happens to be wrong: optical microscopy did not show kaolinte; SEM did. The kaolinite platelets, at something like 50 nm thin, are probably too small to be seen under visible light.

That was already the case in the Harrit et al. paper, the red particles are still there post-DSC. That has been pointed out in numerous occasions but no explanation has been given yet. It has not been considered relevant, for some reason, despite being strong evidence against a thermite reaction.
Of course.

Basile plans on repeating some of the tests Harrit e.al. did, can be expected to get the same results on some chips - and thus confirm what Harrit's data already shows: Paint, not thermite. Truthers of course can be expected to handwave it all once again.
 
No, your example happens to be wrong: optical microscopy did not show kaolinte; SEM did. The kaolinite platelets, at something like 50 nm thin, are probably too small to be seen under visible light.
I stand corrected, thanks.

Still, I think they may help ensuring they are the correct chips. IIRC Millette uses the images as a basis for comparison.
 
The tests would be totally.useless at this point.
Even if you could prove the sample ignited under
Inert gas, you could not prove it was thermite.
Infact it could have been
A naturally occuring nano material in the buildings.
The dust samples being so low those
Nano compounds are are available to anyone
Easily to acquire.
Silicon Carbide can be found on red glazed pottery spacificly copper red or straw fired pottery the grain structure and size of the pores is determined by the
Grind of the carbides.
Nano hemitites can be found in cyanobacteria and can be deposited though straw firing. Aluminum is used in straw firing at low temperature.
Structure and nano size do not indicate complex manufacture.
Humans have been using nano materials for centuries.
I half way expect that since the materials are so easy to
Find that with truther dust samples running low manufacture of said materials will occur in order to play the foolish people in the truth movement, for
One last big donation before it dies.
 
Funny.thing is their might have been some truth
To.the observations of molten metal
And unusual sulfur reactions however
These idiot CD ideas have destroyed all the chance for real science to be.done.
 
...
Silicon Carbide can be found on red glazed pottery spacificly copper red or straw fired pottery the grain structure and size of the pores is determined by the
As I explained at length in my post in your own thread today, the silicon in some of the chips is most likely aluminium silicate - specifically a mineral called kaolinite, and not silicon carbide. The carbon you see in Jones'/Harrit's data, as well as some of the oxygen, is from the surrounding organic matrix.
James Millette, head of a forensic laboratory near Atlanta, has, at our (Chris Mohr's) behest, tested red-gray chips from WTC dust that match Harrit's chips a-d, and - using a method called FTIR, found that the Si-bearing platelets are indeed kaolinite (an aluminium silicate).

In another type of chip, represented in Harrit e.al. Figures 12-18, Jones shows that at least some of the Si there is present together with only significant O, not C (too little thereof):

So in that chip, the Si is probably just silica - SiO2 - and indeed, the Tnemec primer that this chip very likely is has silica (amorphous as well as diatomaceous) in its recipe, as filler and, I suppose, for grip.

Nano hemitites can be found in cyanobacteria and can be deposited though straw firing. Aluminum is used in straw firing at low temperature.
Yes, maybe, but Nano hematite can also be found in red steel primer. EVERY red steel primer in the world. As we are dealing with steel-framed structures, where all of the steel was coated with red primer, there is no need to speculate about cyanobacteria, straw firing and glazed pottery.

Structure and nano size do not indicate complex manufacture.
Humans have been using nano materials for centuries.
This is correct.

Many pigments, including red iron-pigment, is nano-sized. Red iron oxide pigment (albeit impure) was known and used not just centuries but tens of thousands of years ago, and has been synthesized in a cheap, large industrial process for about a hundred years.

Fine clay, as used in porcellain, paints and white paper, consists of plate-like particles that are only tens of nanometers thin, and is mined in large quantities as the aluminium-silicate mineral kaolinite.
 
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If there is to be a test look for the morphology of cutting disk residue.
Test said chips under argon not nitrogen, they should have weak energy signatures under argon.
I have to stop underestimating truth movement potential to
Point out useless B.S.
 
Jones is wrong.

And you are wrong, too.


Neither Jones' red-gray "energetic" chips nor his "iron microspheres" have anything to do with silcon carbide/aluminium oxide cutting disks.

The red-gray, "energtic" chips are steel primer paint (pigments in organic polymer) on steel surface (spalled during bulding collaps).

Iron rich microspheres (non-energetic!) form in many processes during large, heterogenous fires. They may also form by cutting steel debris for transport, but by the time Jones' fust samples were collected and bagged, hardly any cutting-up had taken place.


Those cut-off wheels are NOT made from "energetic" materials - the very opposite is true:

Silicon carbide at Wikipedia:
"Silicon carbide does not melt at any known pressure. It is also highly inert chemically. "​
Aluminium oxide is chemically inert, too, as Al is very oxygen-greedy and will not give up the bond to any fuel. And anyway, Jones never found any Al-oxide.


You should stop insisting on repeating false claims, and instead read and appretiate rebuttals!
 
Jones is wrong.

And you are wrong, too.

Neither Jones' red-gray "energetic" chips nor his "iron microspheres" have anything to do with silcon carbide/aluminium oxide cutting disks.

The red-gray, "energtic" chips are steel primer paint (pigments in organic polymer) on steel surface (spalled during bulding collaps).

Iron rich microspheres (non-energetic!) form in many processes during large, heterogenous fires. They may also form by cutting steel debris for transport, but by the time Jones' fust samples were collected and bagged, hardly any cutting-up had taken place.

Those cut-off wheels are NOT made from "energetic" materials - the very opposite is true:

Silicon carbide at Wikipedia:
"Silicon carbide does not melt at any known pressure. It is also highly inert chemically. "​
Aluminium oxide is chemically inert, too, as Al is very oxygen-greedy and will not give up the bond to any fuel. And anyway, Jones never found any Al-oxide.


You should stop insisting on repeating false claims, and instead read and appretiate rebuttals!

It looks like paint (from a macro perspective), it looks like paint (from a micro perspective), it has the chemistry of paint and it acts like paint. It's paint, tons of which were known to be present in the WTC. No need for exotic theorizing.
 

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