Is Mark Basile's WTC Dust Study Pointless?

[MileHighMadness]

This is a high tech material capable of rapidly cutting through structural steel.

That a fricking lie...

I would ask you to prove me wrong, but you cannot. The debate over thermite is dead. The time for the sane and intelligent to move on. MM...if you want to waste the rest of your life chasing a stupid delusional fantasy, you are welcome to it.

 

[chrismohr]

There MAY be a point to Mark Basile's study. He claims he will publish all results no matter what. If ALL of these tests are performed and competently analyzed, I predict they will fail to find evidence of elemental aluminum. They should add the TEM tests to their replication, which Jeff Farrer did in 2009 and which results were never released. The FTIR and TEM will fail to show elemental aluminum and they will end up confronted with having to agree with Millette's conclusion: non elemental aluminum, no thermite.

Next prediction: the DSC tests will show an exothermic reaction at 430 C, just like the original 2009 experiments did. Whoopdeedoo. Go to the Analytika website where they sell rust flakes: the ignition temperature of their flakes is, you guessed it, 430 C.

Another prediction: they're out of chip samples! I believe Mark Basile has done this pointless ignition test hundreds of times and his supply is spent. Now he has $5000 or so and no dust left to extract chips from. I have repeatedly written to him and offered to see if I can help him procure WTC dust from Jim Millette, and he has never answered.

They're out of dust samples and won't talk to me even if I could procure more for them (I even have a potential second source not connected to Millette or the EPA but they won;t talk to me). So there will BE nio experiment. I'm not sure if how badly Jones/Harrit even want this experiment to go forward. They had bad luck with henryco, if you remember, who said he couldn't find evidence of nnothermite.

So to summarize my predictions:
1) The test will never happen because they don;t have dust samples whose source they trust.
2) If the test goes forward, their only "evidence" in favor of thermite will be the spiky DSC curve at 430 C.
3) No test capable of finding elemental aluminum will find it.

So is it pointless? Not if they are able to disprove their own theory! As you'll see in my upcoming video, lots of 9/11 people think the 2009 paper has damaged the movement's credibility, so there may be a point to this exercise for both sides.

Oh, and if I'm wrong, and they prove thousands of tons of nanothermite evenly distributed throughout the dust, then we'll have a whole nuther kind of discussion. Which I won't engage in now. It's like arguing with my wife how to spend our lottery winnings if we win!

 

[Miragememories]

"Another prediction: they're out of chip samples!

I believe Mark Basile has done this pointless ignition test hundreds of times and his supply is spent.

Now he has $5000 or so and no dust left to extract chips from. ...

They're out of dust samples and won't talk to me even if I could procure more for them (I even have a potential second source not connected to Millette or the EPA but they won;t talk to me). So there will BE nio experiment."

There is no reason to believe Mark is out of sample material.

Dr. Harrit revealed a very large bag of 9/11 WTC dust at the Toronto conference.

You couldn't get Millette's 'spent' samples so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for fresh untested 9/11 WTC dust from you and your "sources".

Finally got some campfire ashes to unload did you?

 

[WilliamSeger]

The best way for Basile to support the thermite hypothesis would be to show that the chips contain elemental aluminum; that they ignite in an inert atmosphere; and that the ignition produces aluminum oxide that wasn't there before. If the chips can pass those tests, then comparisons to known rust-proofing paint would be appropriate before concluding that it's "highly engineered nanothermite." I'm not impressed with either Harrit's or Basile's ability to design scientific tests.

 

[chrismohr]

Ooops, a little too late to edit my last post, but I wanted to add that two 9/11 Truth people have told me their supply is low and could I help them get more? I told them I could try, and got hold of Mark Basile to offer to be of help. No response from him. So I have reason to believe they are either out of dust samples or running very low.

Excellent point above, WilliamSeger!

 

[Spanx]

There is no reason to believe Mark is out of sample material.

So why was Ziggy asking for dust or a donation for the Basile experiment?

 

[DGM]

So why was Ziggy asking for dust or a donation for the Basile experiment?

............why has Ziggy not mentioned the fact the $1000 from the "physics challenge" is no longer listed.

I wonder if Dr. Griscom knows his generous donation has vanished.

 

[tsig]

Ooops, a little too late to edit my last post, but I wanted to add that two 9/11 Truth people have told me their supply is low and could I help them get more? I told them I could try, and got hold of Mark Basile to offer to be of help. No response from him. So I have reason to believe they are either out of dust samples or running very low.

Excellent point above, WilliamSeger!

No problem, contact Dusty she has plenty of samples.

 

[pgimeno]

This:

The best way for Basile to support the thermite hypothesis would be to show that the chips contain elemental aluminum; that they ignite in an inert atmosphere; and that the ignition produces aluminum oxide that wasn't there before. If the chips can pass those tests, then comparisons to known rust-proofing paint would be appropriate before concluding that it's "highly engineered nanothermite." I'm not impressed with either Harrit's or Basile's ability to design scientific tests.

Very well said.

Plus that they contain mostly iron oxide initially, and mostly elemental iron at the end. Both of these together are what Tillotson&Gash showed in order to prove a thermite reaction occurred and the ATM paper failed to reproduce.

And, please, identifying chips from the beginning so they are traceable, not changing horses in midstream.

 

[Puppycow]

If it's not pointless, what is the point?

We already know what happened on 9/11 without analyzing the dust.

 

[TheRedWorm]

 

[ozeco41]

There MAY be a point to Mark Basile's study.

That is the central reason why these "discussions" keep going round in circles. WHAT is "The Point"???

The point is either:
1)Pure Science; OR 2) Something related to 9/11 CT discussion.

IF the latter it is either:
a) Proof of one of the significant aspects of 9/11; OR b) mere posturing between opposing parties.

It cannot be "a)" unless it contributes to proof of CD and in that case is pointless without a valid prima facie pro-CD hypothesis.

So it is merely posturing.

But it would certinly help if those discussing whatever they think they are discussing would define what "point" THEY are addressing. And "the point" is NOT better scientific procedures. That is simply the "means" to the "end" - what is the "end" - the objective...the goal....the purpose...

If it's not pointless, what is the point?

Exactly. If you don't know where you are going OR why you are going there......

We already know what happened on 9/11 without analyzing the dust.

Specifically we know there was no CD. And, for the pedants, putting that in Scientific Method language, there is not now and never has been a claim for CD to prima-facie standard . There is "no case to answer" in para-legal language.

The only reasons for discussing the issue - in the context of 9/11 argument - is that debunkers have got into the habit of accepting "reversed burden of disproof".

By all means folks can enjoy the to and fro chit chat. But don't lose sight if the reality - it ain't going anywhere relevant to 9/11 WTC collapse - until there is a pro-CD hypothesis. A "case to answer".

 

[Porkpie Hat]

The entire argument that a few mils thick of thermite caused the collapse of a 47 story building is pointless. The most it would do is raise the steel temperature a degree C or two.

If heating the steel could cause the collapse, then why have "truthers" been so resistant to accepting fires ( a lot hotter) could achieve the same conclusion?

 

[ozeco41]

The entire argument that a few mils thick of thermite caused the collapse of a 47 story building is pointless. The most it would do is raise the steel temperature a degree C or two.

If heating the steel could cause the collapse, then why have "truthers" been so resistant to accepting fires ( a lot hotter) could achieve the same conclusion?

Maybe it's because thermXte causes a different kind of heat?

[/TrutherMode]

 

[gmanontario]

[qimg]http://conleys.com.au/smilies/clap.gif[/qimg] [qimg]http://conleys.com.au/smilies/clap.gif[/qimg]

Maybe it's because thermXte causes a different kind of heat?

[/TrutherMode]

That just made the amateur physicist in me snort coffee because in another forum I used to belong to, I heard that exact argument!

He/she actually believed there are different kinds of heat and that energy is not measurable when someone pointed out the potential energy of materials like explosives and thermite.

 

[ozeco41]

That just made the amateur physicist in me snort coffee because in another forum I used to belong to, I heard that exact argument!

Do I owe you a coffee?

He/she actually believed there are different kinds of heat and that energy is not measurable when someone pointed out the potential energy of materials like explosives and thermite.

There are multiple reasons why this chasing the truthers over thermXte or microspheres is a waste of time - for 9/11 discussion. Scientific interest is a different matter but it is irrelevant to 9/11 discussion.

Purely in the heat/thermodynamics domain it should be obvious - will be to anyone with a "feeling" for basic physics - that a painted on film of superdooperdoublytripledstrengththermite... simply isn't in the ball park of doing anything destructive. No need to decide if there was thermXte there. Wouldn't matter if there were hundred tonne stockpiles on Ground Zero. It wasn't used for CD.

Discuss the science all you want but don't loose the plot. It wasn't used for CD on 9/11. Remember the alligators and draining the swamp.

 

[Miragememories]

So why was Ziggy asking for dust or a donation for the Basile experiment?

As your posts continually reveal, one can never have too much "dust".

To specifically address your question though, testing dust from Millette's stash minimizes the 'trail of custody' argument from people like yourself.

 

[Spanx]

As your posts continually reveal, one can never have too much "dust".

To specifically address your question though, testing dust from Millette's stash minimizes the 'trail of custody' argument from people like yourself.

But Ziggy wasn't asking Millette for dust.

 

[jaydeehess]

The entire argument that a few mils thick of thermite caused the collapse of a 47 story building is pointless. The most it would do is raise the steel temperature a degree C or two.

If heating the steel could cause the collapse, then why have "truthers" been so resistant to accepting fires ( a lot hotter) could achieve the same conclusion?

Its typical truther raising the level of conspiracy to nonsense levels.
IF (if, if, if) therem?te was used then the best bet for a truther conspiracy would be to simply state that there was not enough heat to do the job by office fires alone so THEY painted therm?te onto the steel on the top 20 floors of the towers to add enough heat to ensure collapse initiation, in full knowledge that a top down floor collapse would result in a progression through to total collapse.

In similar fashion with WTC 7, all they really had to do was claim therm?te at the connection between the girder and column 79, progression to collapse then ensues after column 79 fails.

But nooooo, instead we have to have soopernanohushaboom explosive therm?te clandestinely installed throughout the towers and WTC 7, fake aircraft, modified aircraft, etc. etc. etc.

 

[carlitos]

I almost hate to ask, but who is "Ziggy?" Did he play guitar?