Is it possible to perceive a world which is external to our perceptions?

UPCHURCH

Forget metaphysics. I cannot believe you still haven't understood this. Metaphysics is just a bunch of words - just a bunch of concepts. It was invented for a purpose. The purpose was to try to find explanations to explain the "ultimate nature" of the things we percieve. But you seem to be quite incapable of escaping from your own particular metaphysical viewpoint - to the extent that you cannot even understand there was a world before metaphysics.
What I can't believe is that you are apparently incapable of understanding that language, concepts, assertions, etc. are inherently inseparable from some sort of context.

Yes, metaphysics are just a bunch of words, but so are "a monitor right in front of you" and "objects of perception". These statements are composed of words. Words are not independant of context because words are defined by other words, which are defined by still more words.

It's a fool's errand to attempt to define something that is completely free of assumption, free of any context whatsoever. Do I see a monitor in front of me? Yes, I do, but I do so with the understanding that it is based on quite a few assumptions about what that means. To pretend that there are no assumptions in that acknowledgement is simply self-dilusional.

Given that this discussion will surely inevitably involve some metaphysic or another, it is unfair of you to ask us to commit to a statement as if it does not have some contextual basis whatsoever. It's a bait and switch.
 
It's a fool's errand to attempt to define something that is completely free of assumption, free of any context whatsoever.

Isn't God the only "thing" that is completely free of assumption and context? God is the "thing" that everything else comes from.

.....see where I am going?
 
Probably answered long before (my apologies for posting as I go along) but no. We are discussing objective reality, should such exist. We certainly think it does.

Soapy, as to BIVs; are all thought experiments useless? ;)
No, but they are only useful if we can reliably extrapolate what the result would be from known principles: Otherwise they are as likely to mislead as to help. My feeling about philosophy is that there is too much thought experiment and not enough real experiment.
The notion of what would or would not be the case involving a brain in a vat is widespread through discussions like this one for example, but the fact is we cannot do this experiment yet even physically (whether we can ever do it ethically is a personal call).
We do not know what results would be obtained by feeding lies to a BIV and any argument depending on such suppositions is (to me) a lot less reliable than (eg.) the inductionist view that my monitor exists independent of me. There are two large Roman nails on my wall. They once belonged to my aunt of happy memory. Before her , they belonged to the Roman Army.
Agricola is long dead. The nails are still here. Anyone wishing to dispute this is welcome to take the being-thumped-over-the-head-with-one test.:D

ETA- Claus, yes, I'm sure we all see that, but just like the BIV, God is a gedankenexperiment beyond our ability to reliably predict.No data. We have no idea how it responds to input, if at all. All religion is supposition thereon.That sad fact summarises much of human history.
 
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Stuff is perceived and acted on via a long causal chain, and we have less than 100% certainty that our perceptions map on to an external world, but our experiences lead us to be 99.99...% certain that there is a consistent world we are part of.

[derail]
Yiihaa! Neverending thread crossover! 99.99... = 100.
[/derail]
 
[Derail riposte]
ALL numbers are imaginary. Mathematicians make it all up.
Worse than bloody philosophers they are. If it's internally consistent , it's elegant.
Never ask if it makes any sense.
[/]
 
Sorry, but I disagree (to an extent). The computer and the tree are metaphysical interpretations!!! You cant avoid them!

It's very simple to avoid them. It's like this:

--------------------
I see a tree. !!STOP!!
--------------------

All you have to do is not add anything.


unless you enter the noumena territory, in which there are no "computer" and "no computer", nor any kind of "you". Pure monism.

You need nothing of the sort.

Husserl accused people of "forgetting the lifeworld". And oh boy was he correct.
 
Yawn. Yes, yes, obviously I did not mean that I see neural inputs.

Well then you can't say the BIV directly perceives neural inputs. If you did that then you'd have to say thay you were also perceiving neural inputs right now, and that's not going to help direct realism. What it would be more accurate to say is "The brain indirectly perceives neural inputs".

Yet another reason why our two choices don't offer enough flexibility. Introduce photons and sound waves and wham! it changes from direct to indirect realism.

But you don't see photons and you don't hear sound waves. You see a dog and hear a dog.
 
Do you really think so? I am not at all certain that this is the case. Does your SAD (stone age dude) have language?

...sorry, this would be a derail. I will post it anyway, just to say that there is no reason to suspect (although no concrete claim to the negative) that SAD thinks in an internal/external manner.

Agreed. He just sees a tree.
 
The view summarised by Paul's quoted text, "critical realism", seems to be the sound view....

"Critical realism" isn't actually a metaphysical position in the same class as anti-realism, indirect and direct realism with respect to external objects. It isn't about external objects at all. Instead, it is the name adopted by the science-religion interface community, of which Roy Bhaskar is a leading example. i.e. it's the position of people like me, but nothing to do with direct and indirect realism. :)
 
What I can't believe is that you are apparently incapable of understanding that language, concepts, assertions, etc. are inherently inseparable from some sort of context.

Yes, metaphysics are just a bunch of words, but so are "a monitor right in front of you" and "objects of perception". These statements are composed of words. Words are not independant of context because words are defined by other words, which are defined by still more words.

It's a fool's errand to attempt to define something that is completely free of assumption, free of any context whatsoever. Do I see a monitor in front of me? Yes, I do, but I do so with the understanding that it is based on quite a few assumptions about what that means. To pretend that there are no assumptions in that acknowledgement is simply self-dilusional.

Given that this discussion will surely inevitably involve some metaphysic or another, it is unfair of you to ask us to commit to a statement as if it does not have some contextual basis whatsoever. It's a bait and switch.

Unbelievable. Mercutio has got it right. Even the stone age dude is one step ahead of upchurch.
 
Upchurch,

This thread is an offshoot of an offshoot of a thread about Husserl. Husserl said that modern people are so blinded by metaphysics (especially materialism) that they had lost touch with REALITY. We are talking about REALITY. Not models of reality. THe stone age dude has no models. All he has is REALITY. If you cannot get to "I see a tree" and stop right there, then Husserl is correct. You've lost sight of the thing that materialism is supposed to be describing. You have got the map so confused with the territory that you are denying there is any territory to map.

Geoff: "Look in front of you. See that tree?"
Upchurch: "I need a metaphysical map."
Geoff: "No. Look right in front of you. See that tree?"
UPchurch: "Which tree? The mental tree or the material tree?"
Geoff: Forget metaphysics, descartes was wrong. Look in front of you. See that tree?
Upchurch: "What tree? "
Geoff: "The one in front of you"
Stone age dude: "The one in front of you"
Mercutio: "The one in front of you"
Upchurch: "Without metaphysics, I can't see a tree."
Chorus: "LOOK IN FRONT OF YOU!!"
 
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Geoff: "Look in front of you. See that tree?"
Upchurch: "I need a metaphysical map."
Geoff: "No. Look right in front of you. See that tree?"
UPchurch: "Which tree? The mental tree or the material tree?"
Geoff: Forget metaphysics, descartes was wrong. Look in front of you. See that tree?
Upchurch: "What tree? "
Geoff: "The one in front of you"
Stone age dude: "The one in front of you"
Mercutio: "The one in front of you"
Upchurch: "Without metaphysics, I can't see a tree."
Chorus: "LOOK IN FRONT OF YOU!!"

You need to read up on Blondlot.
 
Geoff,

The point (in case your superior intellect doesn't get such mundane explanations) is, that when you tell people what to look for, they tend to see it.

You should ask: What is this in front of you?

You shouldn't give them the answer, and then scold them for not seeing what you see. Your question is a closed question: You already know the answer, and you want to lead others to that answer. Your question should be an open one: What is this?
 
Nice try. Doesn't work.

Do you live in a world of neural inputs? Look in front of you! See those neural inputs? No. Neither do I. The brain isn't directly percieving any neural inputs. Not unless you live in Kevinland. ;)

Actually, you are perceiving neural inputs. You are then translating them into symbology which represents 'the real world'. So here, at least, you are wrong.

The process is consciously invisible, but all you ever sense are neural inputs. You learn how to give those inputs meaning as you grow and develop.
 
Actually, you are perceiving neural inputs.

You've missed the point. We are trying to defend direct realism. Direct realism is the claim that we directly perceive rocks, trees and tables. NOT neural inputs. If you are going to claim the BIV directly perceives neural inputs then you have to say the same for yourself right now - and that isn't direct realism.
 
Geoff,

The point (in case your superior intellect doesn't get such mundane explanations) is, that when you tell people what to look for, they tend to see it.

You should ask: What is this in front of you?

You shouldn't give them the answer, and then scold them for not seeing what you see. Your question is a closed question: You already know the answer, and you want to lead others to that answer. Your question should be an open one: What is this?

You idiot. That is EXACTLY the point that I am trying to make and which Upchurch doesn't understand. You are right. Your question should be an open one: What is this? But before you can ask it, you need to point to something and say THIS!. You cannot even ask "what is this?" before you've got a THIS. Can you explain this to upchurch please?
 
You've missed the point. We are trying to defend direct realism. Direct realism is the claim that we directly perceive rocks, trees and tables. NOT neural inputs. If you are going to claim the BIV directly perceives neural inputs then you have to say the same for yourself right now - and that isn't direct realism.

Yet you yourself posted this snippet from Wikipedia a couple of pages back:
Direct realists often argue, contra representationalists, that the fact that one becomes aware of a tree in perception through a complex neurophysical process does not argue in favour of indirect perception. It merely establishes the method, undoubtedly complex, by which direct awareness of the world is secured. Arguing that perceiving a tree directly requires a magical, acausal mirroring of the tree in the mind is akin to arguing that traveling directly to grandmother's requires that one magically appear at her doorstep.
 
You've missed the point. We are trying to defend direct realism. Direct realism is the claim that we directly perceive rocks, trees and tables. NOT neural inputs. If you are going to claim the BIV directly perceives neural inputs then you have to say the same for yourself right now - and that isn't direct realism.

You're right - direct realism is indefensible, precisely because of how the brain and senses work. We don't directly see the tree, the monitor, the flying spaghetti monster. We see photons in patterns and wavelengths and such. Our senses convert those patterns etc. into neural signals, which are then transmitted to the brain. The BIV thought experiment demonstrates conclusively how direct realism can be fatally incorrect, after a fashion; unless the thinker concedes that the only objects of direct realism are neural signals themselves.

Since the brain also can generate the same neural signals, without use of the sensory organs, this can sound pretty confusing for any form of realism. Dreams? Imagination? Hallucination? Our entire lives could be some extended dream sequence, and for our brain, there'd be no difference whatsoever.

But there is a quality to the waking world, a consistancy and a continuity, that seems to provide us with a referential about what is 'real' and what is not. Sadly, it is only an assumption, an inference, that allows us to accept physical reality as it is, rather than presuming it is all fake.

I'm not entirely sure I comprehend the semantic differences between direct and indirect realism. I'm fairly certain, though, that what seems to be described as 'direct realism' is false, for several reasons. The first being that the brain does not directly perceive anything, save neural inputs; the second being that the senses do not perceive reality as it truly is (when's the last time you saw the U-V markings on a flower, or sensed the gamma radiation in the area, or were directly aware of the magnetic field of the earth??), but only as they are equipped to sense. The third being the number of experiments that show that neither our senses nor our brains are foolproof. Remember Ian's checkerboard illusion? He insists, against all proof, that the two squares in question are absolutely the same color, even though they aren't. This is just one small example of why I think direct realism is silly and indefensible.

I'm completely lost on 'indirect realism' - seems to me that's a closer description to what's really going on, that we don't sense reality directly, but only through the process of sensation, neural input, and interpretation. Reality is there, but we perceive it in bits and pieces, and miss so much. Like being blind, really, and having to figure out what the world is like with only our hands, ears, etc.

What is non-realism?
 

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