Is it possible to perceive a world which is external to our perceptions?

... I'd say we perceive "percepts" just as we conceive of concepts. We can conceive of things we cannot perceive.
Nice turn of phrase ... :)

However, anything conceived must couple to perception if only subjectively (that is, internal to a specific, as perceived, body-brain at life level).

Also, the Kantian terminology of noumena and phenomena might help clarify here. (Or not)
At least some of us see Transcendental Idealism as an archaic signpost long past. ;)
 
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This, at least, is an interesting discussion.

It definitely points to the first assumption we have to choose to make: whether or not our sensory data is indicative of anything 'real'. And it refers to another assumption we're required to make: that other entities exist, which we become capable of communicating with.

If we were unable to make the first assumption, we would be neither able to survive, nor learn anything new. If we are unable to make the second assumption, we become solipsists. Yes, these are assumptions; but they are vital assumptions, necessary to thrive and survive in the perceived real world.

This leads us to a better understanding of the actual problem: does it matter if there are 'real objects' in reality or not? Indeed, does it matter if the perceived reality is a real reality or not?

Unless we make the assumption that we are solipsists... we have to settle for communicated conformation of our own sensory realizations. Yes, it is true that there could be six billion brains in vats, all being fed a virtual reality of sorts - but that reality is no less real for that. No one bypasses the laws of this virtual reality, a-la Matrix; no one experiences anything beyond this virtual reality. So we're basically left with either deciding all this isn't real - which, at best, is an irrelevant and meaningless choice to make, and at worst, could be fatal - or deciding it's real enough, and carrying on accordingly.

I agree with Geoff inasmuch as saying that any kind of 'absolute realism' is real is an indefensible position... we just can't know if it's true or not. However, that's not to say that indirect realism is impossible. It's just to say that we have absolutely no way of knowing.

Perhaps 'practical realism' should apply - that for ALL practical intents, we have to accept that we indirectly perceive a reality which is practically real. Yes, that sounds like a lot of assumptions and "it'll do"ism... but that's what we get.

It is the only reality we're capable of experiencing, and the only reality which can be explained and described using logical rules, after all. "True reality" might very well follow no rules at all, but we have no way of even vaguely perceiving such a reality, so other than idle speculation for entertainment purposes only, there is no point in discussing any reality other than that which we perceive.

Now, come the day when a Neo-like figure breaks physical laws left and right, or the day when the Holodeck grid becomes visible through our city streets and country lanes, we'll have to seriously re-think the nature of reality. But until that day comes, we have to accept the reality of the world which we perceive, because we have nothing else.
 
We are discussing material objects, are we not?
Probably answered long before (my apologies for posting as I go along) but no. We are discussing objective reality, should such exist. We certainly think it does.

Soapy, as to BIVs; are all thought experiments useless? ;)
 
I have never seen so much b**lsh*t as has been posted in this thread

UPCHURCH

Forget metaphysics. I cannot believe you still haven't understood this. Metaphysics is just a bunch of words - just a bunch of concepts. It was invented for a purpose. The purpose was to try to find explanations to explain the "ultimate nature" of the things we percieve. But you seem to be quite incapable of escaping from your own particular metaphysical viewpoint - to the extent that you cannot even understand there was a world before metaphysics.

Let's try a thought experiment. You are an uneducated stone-age hunter-gather. In front of you is a tree. You have no knowledge of metaphysics, of science, of religion, or any of that stuff. There's just you and a tree.

NOW - see that tree in front of you? I am talking about THAT TREE.

What you are doing is trying to impose a metaphysical interpretation on the objects of your perception. IN your case the temptation to do so seems to be so overpowering that you have lost all comprehension of the actual things that metaphysics seeks to describe. You cannot understand that I am not asking you to think, to analyse, to decide ANYTHING about the nature of the things before you. All I want to do is declare a term to refer to THE THING ITSELF. Do you see? Metaphysics is just an explanatory scheme. I am not interested in definition that have been the result of that explanatory scheme - ANY version of it. I want to define a term to refer to the thing that metaphysics tries to analyse - the actual thing itself. If at this point you start thinking "What thing? The material thing? The mental thing?" just STOP, poke yourself in the eye, smell the roses and free your mind from the poison which is metaphysics. Just LOOK IN FRONT OF YOU.

The word "objects of your perception" refers to THE THING IN FRONT OF YOU.

Is anybody else having difficulty with this or is it just Upchurch?

I am fairly certain that I could explain this to most 5-year-olds, most stone age hunter-gatherers, nearly everybody on this site and a ward full of psychiatric patients. But for some reason, Upchurch doesn't get it.
 
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I see a monitor.

WOW!

Four words and you managed to figure out what Upchurch cannot figure out.

"I see a monitor". The rest....fine. All I am interested in (until Upchurch catches up) is "I see a monitor." Can you explain that to Upchurch please?
 
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If I were an immaterialist, I'd say that there isn't really any such thing as a monitor in front of me.
Gee, Uppie, I'm an immaterialist -- objective idealist in fact -- and I say "yes, there is a monitor in front of me that will not disappear when I stop thinking about it, or looking at it, or whatever.

If I were a solipsist, I'd say that there is only the dream of a monitor in front of me. etc, etc, etc
If you were a solipsist you'd actually have a defensible position -- albeit a useless one. (Perhaps no more useless than your usual mishmash of meta-thought, though. ;) )
 
I see a monitor. It is made by Philips,in Hungary. It weighs several kg.

All good.


I take it to be a real, material object as defined by the post 178 agreement.
Extensive evidence gathered over centuries implies that such massive objects have inertial properties which include not going elsewhere when not watched, as this would involve violating a number of thoroughly established conservation principles none of which is in any way violated by anything with the word "quantum" in it.
I conclude that this monitor is at least as real as I am. It is a real object.

Does anyone have any evidence to support a different view?

That is fine. It is from an empirical point of view, but before you imposed any interpretation on it you did manage to identify the thing you were imposing interpretations on. And all of your inferences are perfectly reasonable. Specifically, you've made no specific claims about the ultimate nature of things.

Incidentally, as a rule, I think it's safer for me to explain the reasons I think as I do and you to explain your reasons. I don't think QM has anything to do with perception because I have seen no evidence that it has and I have no reason to think it would.

Fair enough, but if you assumed materialism was true before you passed judgement this may have influenced your thinking. Your description started from the phenomenology and headed toward empirical science, but at the moment I need to get Upchurch to agree to the first sentence of your post.

Metaphysical considerations are unavoidable if you are going to provide a description of the level you just did, but you need no metaphysics to agree with the first sentence of your post. Everyone should agree with that.
 
Becasue you're assuming that an immaterialist considers the perception of "a monitor right in front of you" identical to a monitor right in front of you.

More rubbish. I don't want you to analyse what a materialist would say about the ultimate nature of the monitor in front of you.. I don't care what hammegk says it "equates to". I want to provide a term to refer to the monitor in front of you BEFORE ANYONE EQUATES IT TO ANYTHING.

For someone so concerned about assumptions, why can't you see your own?

OH

MY

GOD

Do you really think the statement "I percieve a monitor" involves metaphysical assumptions? I think you may need to book an appointment with a psychiatrist. :(
 
Well, in my case, there is a monitor in front of me.

WOW! Well done BDZ. Have a peanut. Hard, wasn't it? :oldroll:

Now, I do not see this "monitor" as an objective entity nor I see "me" as a subjective entity. This is the problem, stating that there are two entities in a simple act.

Exactly, but you didn't have any problem with the first bit.
 
Well, in my case, there is a monitor in front of me. Now, I do not see this "monitor" as an objective entity nor I see "me" as a subjective entity. This is the problem, stating that there are two entities in a simple act.
You must be imaginary. An authority on such matters, our own AdminiModerator Darat, once assured me there is no 'Eastern' thought, as opposed to 'Western'. :D
 
Probably answered long before (my apologies for posting as I go along) but no. We are discussing objective reality, should such exist. We certainly think it does.

Soapy, as to BIVs; are all thought experiments useless? ;)

Actually, all we are discussing is the brute fact that you are currently perceiving a monitor. For some reason I cannot fathom, Upchurch is having trouble agreeing that he percieves a monitor. ???
 
Geoff, I'm here in Providence with my friend Bill. We just returned from having sushi. We were almost certain you would adopt critical realism with great relish, but you appear to have ignored it.

So now we both think you have introduced a false dichotomy between direct and indirect realism.

~~Paul
 
Direct realists sometimes claim that indirect realists are confused about conventional idioms of perceptions. Perception is an exemplar of direct contact with something. Examples of indirect perception might be seeing something in a photograph, or hearing a recording of a voice.
If this is what we're saying about direct realism, I'm probably okay with it. Of course, I've said that before, only to discover that it wasn't what we were saying after all.

~~Paul
 
Let's try a thought experiment. You are an uneducated stone-age hunter-gather. In front of you is a tree. You have no knowledge of metaphysics, of science, of religion, or any of that stuff. There's just you and a tree.

NOW - see that tree in front of you? I am talking about THAT TREE.

What you are doing is trying to impose a metaphysical interpretation on the objects of your perception.
Even the Stone Age dude understands that there is a physical tree he can throw a rock at or walk into, and there is also the image of the tree in his mind's eye. Which one is the object of his perception?

~~Paul
 
Even the Stone Age dude understands that there is a physical tree he can throw a rock at or walk into....

That is the bit I am interested in regarding Upchurch.

, and there is also the image of the tree in his mind's eye.
~~Paul

"Mind" is a dualistic term, Descartes is to blame. :D

Which one is the object of his perception?

The one in front of him.
 
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Critical realism is the project of one "Ram Roy Bhaskar".
And I'm sure he is a royal whackjob. Nevertheless, it is an example of another kind of realism, suggesting that your two choices do not cover all possible realities.

However, it sounds like we agree that direct realism allows for an arbitrarily complex sensory pathway in the brain, without rendering my perceptions indirect. If that is the case, I'm all up with direct realism (at least for now).

~~Paul
 

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