Is Islam an evil religion?

[Bill Thompson]

"Islam" is just as "good", just as "evil", just as conflicted and contradictory and splintered as anything else that has to encompass the lives and views of 1.6 billion human beings and 1400 years of global history.

So is the mob in New York City. Would you say organized crime is good?

 

[Bill Thompson]

Are you deliberately obtuse, or is your reading comprehension really that limited?

I am saying that your statement, "making a religious case based on people who have politics as a motivating factor does not really prove anything", is ironic because what you are presently doing, in at least two threads regarding Islam, is making a religious case based on people who have politics as a motivating factor.

You are a liar.

Show me how Osama bin Laden was motivated by politics.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I've not, nor will I ever, justify or even deny the existence of things like child marriage, mutilation of criminals, violent and aggressive jihad, or oppression of women among Muslims.

That is not really true. Well it is quasi-true. So it is not really true. You, in fact passionately denied the model that Muslims follow in Muhammed as being real and posted debunked conspiracies to support this. In modern terms, Muhammed was a pedophile rapist. All the respected Muslims Scholars within Islam would concur.

Islam is evil because of what islam means and this is unique. It means "submit". Muslims have even told me that they consider themselves to be slaves to Allah. And they define what to do as exactly what the Immans tell them to do.

Thinking for yourself is not what the word "islam" means. That is evil. That is not the way to go. That does not fit in the modern world.

Your giving examples of other religions do not impress me. Are they supposed to?

 

[bikerdruid]

You are a liar.

Show me how Osama bin Laden was motivated by politics.

his primary motivation to battle america was the powerful american influence in the middle east.
his war was against american imperialism, not american xtianity.

 

[Bill Thompson]

his primary motivation to battle america was the powerful american influence in the middle east.
his war was against american imperialism, not american xtianity.

He said not so.

You are repeating what Western News Media wants to believe and wants us to believe. This is how we want to see it. This is not the truth.

He said his battle was a religious one time after time after time. In interviews before 9-11 with Western Journalists he was constanlty correcting them.

he is dead now. If he was not, he would be correcting you.

By "show me" I do not mean "show me what you have been told". I mean, show me where he said his battle was not a religious one.

He kicked off the war with the USA after seeing American troops in Saudi Arabia in a way that was a clear violation of Islamic law.

There is no line between policits and religion in Islam anyway. So your point is moot.

 

[Bill Thompson]

What I don't understand is why you think my correction of your continual attempts to paint Islam as a monolithic religion with just one set of beliefs, commandments, and teachings is "arguing in defense of Islam."

I've not, nor will I ever, justify or even deny the existence of things like child marriage, mutilation of criminals, violent and aggressive jihad, or oppression of women among Muslims.

What I will do, however, is continue to correct the utterly mistaken notions that the above are exclusive to, inherent in, or universal in Islam. Despite the fact that that should be blatantly obvious to anyone who's bothered to look at what Muslims, scholars, and Muslim scholars say.

It almost disgusts me that I have to do the above, actually, since it's trivially easy for anyone to find reams of scholarly, theological, and historical information about the subject, revealing that "Islam" is just as "good", just as "evil", just as conflicted and contradictory and splintered as anything else that has to encompass the lives and views of 1.6 billion human beings and 1400 years of global history.

Antpogo, this is what Muslim scholars say.

Saudi Cleric Muhammad Musa Al-Sharif Defends the Marrying Off of Under-Age Girls in Saudi Arabia: "Atheists, Christians, and Fornicators Are Responsible for Human Rights Treaties".

 

[A'isha]

So is the mob in New York City. Would you say organized crime is good?

Which is better, Bill: the Mafia or the Yakuza? Which one's good, and which one's evil?

That is not really true. Well it is quasi-true. So it is not really true. You, in fact passionately denied the model that Muslims follow in Muhammed as being real and posted debunked conspiracies to support this.

No, I pointed out that not all Muslims follow that "model", and pointed out their reasoning.

In modern terms, Muhammed was a pedophile rapist.

In modern terms, so was Joseph. And that's even before you start addressing the issue of the whole "in modern terms" thing.

All the respected Muslims Scholars within Islam would concur.

You're about as wrong as wrong gets when it comes to that.

Islam is evil because of what islam means and this is unique. It means "submit". Muslims have even told me that they consider themselves to be slaves to Allah.

Islam does mean submission, and many Muslims do consider themselves to be slaves to Allah. The common name "Abdullah" in fact translates as exactly that.

But it's far, far from unique to Islam.

And they define what to do as exactly what the Immans tell them to do.

They don't even agree as to what an "imam" is.

Thinking for yourself is not what the word "islam" means. That is evil. That is not the way to go. That does not fit in the modern world.

Your giving examples of other religions do not impress me. Are they supposed to?

When you try to accuse Islam of being uniquely evil because Muslims submit themselves to Allah, when in fact the whole idea of total submission to God's will is so common in Christianity (particularly the evangelical brand that's so popular in the US) that you can't swing a dead argument without running into Christian after Christian talking about it.

Yeah. I mean, it's not like submitting to God's will is talked about outside of Islam at all.

 

[A'isha]

Antpogo, this is what Muslim scholars say.

Saudi Cleric Muhammad Musa Al-Sharif Defends the Marrying Off of Under-Age Girls in Saudi Arabia: "Atheists, Christians, and Fornicators Are Responsible for Human Rights Treaties".

No, that's what one Wahhabist Sunni cleric in one country says.

What do his words mean to Shi'ites living in the US, or Sufis living in Pakistan, or Ahmadiyya living in Indonesia, or Barelvi Sunni living in India?

 

[bikerdruid]

There is no line between policits and religion in Islam anyway. So your point is moot.

bill...there are 1.6 billion muslims in the world.
at least 1.5 billion of them would disagree with your take on their religion.
have you ever read the koran? (other than brief quotes that support your bigotry)

 

[A'isha]

He said not so.

You are repeating what Western News Media wants to believe and wants us to believe. This is how we want to see it. This is not the truth.

Why don't you read his actual words?

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

I'm trying to find where Islam comes in to the US "plundering [Saudi Arabia's] riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors", or "once again trying to repeat the horrific massacres [in Iraq], as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation."

 

[Bill Thompson]

ANTPogo, using your logic, Naziism was neither good nor evil and Nazis should be judged individually according to the law and if Naziism was splintered, that only suggests it is harmless.

ANTPogo, was the USA right when she turned a blind eye to the Nazi death camps. If the USA did something to stop them, would that be a good thing? Do we have a right to judge the Nazi death camps according to how we definde mass murder?

ANTPogo, most Muslims in most of the Islamic world support and defend what we would consider to be mass rape and pedophelia. Is the USA right in turning a blind eye to the mass abuse of children world wide?

The pedophelia rape is not done for political reasons. The pedophelia rape is done because it is demanded that people follow the examples of Muhammed.

You say I should listen to what Muslim Scholars say to judge Islam. Muslim Scholars support what we would consider to be pedophelia rape.

What you are saying is like saying we should have listened to what most Nazi officials would say to judge them. Most Nazi officials probably supported the death camps.

 

[Bill Thompson]

bill...there are 1.6 billion muslims in the world.
at least 1.5 billion of them would disagree with your take on their religion.
have you ever read the koran? (other than brief quotes that support your bigotry)

Do you support the gay hating bigorty in Iran?
It is funny because I think you are bigot who only spouts propaganda instead of facts.

 

[bikerdruid]

bill...there are 1.6 billion muslims in the world.
at least 1.5 billion of them would disagree with your take on their religion.
have you ever read the koran? (other than brief quotes that support your bigotry)

Do you support the gay hating bigorty in Iran?
It is funny because I think you are bigot who only spouts propaganda instead of facts.

i do not support hate crimes anywhere.
choosing to not answer the question, bill?

 

[Bill Thompson]

You are saying stuff everyone wants to believe. It is not the real world.

 

[Craig B]

Muslims are required to perpetrate pedophile rape? Do they know this? I must ask my neighbours, the local grocer and the newsagent in my street, all of whom are Muslims.

Are they told at the mosque that they're committing a sin if they don't rape children?

Reading too many hate sites again, I think!

 

[A'isha]

ANTPogo, using your logic, Naziism was neither good nor evil and Nazis should be judged individually according to the law and if Naziism was splintered, that only suggests it is harmless.

ANTPogo, was the USA right when she turned a blind eye to the Nazi death camps. If the USA did something to stop them, would that be a good thing? Do we have a right to judge the Nazi death camps according to how we definde mass murder?

Did the Nuremberg trials order the imprisonment and/or execution of everyone who was an active member of the Nazi party? Or was it just those particular Nazis who committed the atrocities of the Holocaust?

And right now, today, in 2011, is it illegal in the United States to be an adherent of Naziism, to espouse Nazi ideals, or be a member of the various neo-Nazi organizations in the US?

ANTPogo, most Muslims in most of the Islamic world support and defend what we would consider to be mass rape and pedophelia.

No, they aren't. I believe I already addressed the issue of underage marriages in the world with you.

The site I linked you lists the top 20 countries in order, from highest to lowest percentages, which are "child marriage hotspots." Only 6 of those countries have a Muslim population that's equal to or greater than half of the total population. 12 have a Muslim population a third or less than the total population. 2 have a Muslim population of less than five percent. 7 have a majority (often an overwhelming majority) of Christians in them (in other words, there are more majority-Christian nations than majority-Muslim nations on that list). One of them has a Muslim population of effectively zero, and is in our hemisphere!

Not a single one is a Middle East country, where the populations are almost exclusively Muslim. Neither Iran nor Saudi Arabia are on that list.

If the child marriage problem is an Islam problem, how do you account for that?

In short, there's no correlation between underage marriages in a country and Muslim population of a country.

You say I should listen to what Muslim Scholars say to judge Islam. Muslim Scholars support what we would consider to be pedophelia rape.

Not all of them. In fact, when I showed you how some Muslims feel about the subject and what they say about it, you immediately cut and pasted an argument that they were Doing Islam Wrong.

Dr. Ali's book goes into this subject in more depth. Not that you'll read it.

 

[IDB87]

his primary motivation to battle america was the powerful american influence in the middle east.
his war was against american imperialism, not american xtianity.

He wished to replace one form of imperialism for another.

Political and religious.

Is this thread STILL going on?

 

[IDB87]

I'm trying to find where Islam comes in to the US "plundering [Saudi Arabia's] riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors", or "once again trying to repeat the horrific massacres [in Iraq], as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation."

I think the Fatwa you cited is a good place start.

At the close of the statement:

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries.

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim.

It would of course depend on his definition of 'lands of Islam'. Did he consider Spain and southern France to be lands of Islam?

 

[Foster Zygote]

You are a liar.

Show me how Osama bin Laden was motivated by politics.

"According to former CIA analyst Michael Scheuer, who led the CIA's hunt for Osama bin Laden, the al-Qaeda leader was motivated by a belief that U.S. foreign policy has oppressed, killed, or otherwise harmed Muslims in the Middle East, condensed in the phrase 'They hate us for what we do, not who we are.' " - Source

 

[Foster Zygote]

Islam is evil because of what islam means and this is unique. It means "submit". Muslims have even told me that they consider themselves to be slaves to Allah. And they define what to do as exactly what the Immans tell them to do.

Unique? Evangelical Christian pastors told our congregations that we were "salves to Jesus" all the time. In fact, running a Google search of the term "slaves to jesus" produces some very interesting results. From some of the first few hits we get:

We, ourselves, must understand that we are to be "JESUS' SLAVES." 1 Corinthians 7:22 "For he who as a SLAVE was summoned in [to union with] the Lord is a freedman of the Lord, just so he who was free when he was called is a bond servant of CHRIST (the Messiah)."

All men and women are either slaves of Satan or slaves of Jesus Christ, there is no in between. When one comes to Christ in faith, one ceases to be a slave of Satan and becomes a slave of Jesus Christ, his or her Lord.

“Slave” is the word that almost every English translation of Scripture has avoided using, in favor of the term “servant.” But MacArthur insists that the image of a slave is absolutely critical for understanding what it means to follow Jesus.

Thinking for yourself is not what the word "islam" means. That is evil. That is not the way to go. That does not fit in the modern world.

Those dirty Muslims! They sure are unique.

Your giving examples of other religions do not impress me. Are they supposed to?

They should, because they offer evidence that refutes your assertion that Islam is unique among religions in the qualities that you have claimed for it regarding its practitioners. The question is: Why do you dismiss it?