Is Islam an evil religion?

[FireGarden]

Some passages from Moses times told Breivik to kill people? How does that make sense?

Did you read the quotes ANTPogo gave from Breivik's Manifesto? Breivik himself gives the connection: "In other words, it was perfectly OK to kill a thief breaking into your house. That's the ultimate expression of self-defence. It doesn't matter whether the thief is threatening your life or not. You have the right to protect your home, your family and your property, the Bible says." ... "Clearly, this is not a pacifist God we serve. It's God who teaches our hands to war and our fingers to fight." ... "Jesus told Peter to put his sword in its place – at his side. He didn't say throw it away." ... "...every military action against our enemies is considered self defence."

And it's funny that you imply (I know, you'll claim 'just asking questions') passages from Moses' time are unlikely to motivate anyone.

The point is that this guy was going to use any text he could find to support what he did, even the Unibomber Manifesto. The arguement that the bible made him do it is weak and droopy and flimzy. He could quote the bible, but he would have done it even if he could not quote the bible.

So THIS guy was going to do what he did whether or not he could find justification in the Bible -- he merely went to the trouble of quoting the Bible for lulz. (Yes, I know that's not exactly what you said, but by paraphrasing this way I'm trying to convey to you the message your words impart to me).

Breivik even got insipration from the Unibomber and repeated some of the same lines in the Unibomber Manefesto.

How does this refute that he also quotes the Bible and Robert Spencer, etc?

So the man had more than one inspiration.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Foster, do you think I am too stupid to know that there is horrible violence in the bible?

What I think is stupid is your argument that the negative aspects of the Koran must be taken literally by Muslims and put front and center when evaluating Islam as a whole, while the negative aspects of the Bible can be dismissed as allegories not meant to be taken literally when evaluating Jews and Christians.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I never said nor implied any of that.
Show me. Show me where I made the claim that the bible does not contain violence.

Right here.

I did not find anything in the bible that made him do what he did.

I can't say the same about the Quran and Osama bin Laden.

You clearly implied that there are no passages in the Bible that can be used to justify the killing of people of other religions, violence against women or any of the other horrors that you claim are intrinsic to the practice of Islam globally. The Bible tells people to murder their entire family for the "crime" of choosing a different religion. It tells people that it is just to slaughter entire communities of foreigners (except for the juicy young virgins), it tells people to kill young women for the "crime" of having sex. It tells people that slaves are property. Since you now claim that you know all this, the only thing that I can conclude is that you are being intellectually dishonest by deliberately ignoring these aspects of the Bible rather than introduce them to the argument to be compared and contrasted to Islam.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Foster and Fire, go start another discussion thread called "two wrongs make a right and we should all embrace Islam"

I have worked for the last few months with a very sweet, kind gentle guy who is also a software engineer. I had him over for dinner and his wife and my son's mom really hit if off.

He put in long hours. He never goofed off. He worked hard. He was qualified. He was educated and had the experience for the job. Yet last Friday (a couple of days ago) he was let go.

I have tried to get his side of the story as to why. If I eliminate all the possible reasons why there is only one thing that I can think of as to why.

Our jobs require us to use our brains more perhaps than any other job. If I was doing what he was doing -- spending this whole month never eating during the daylight hours, I do not think I could do my job. I cannot see how he could have done his job.

If Ramadan effected his capacity do do his job, Islam is an evil religion. He has a wife and a future to prepare for in a tough economy. I am personally impacted by this and it saddens me. I am lead to believe this religion practices this for nefarious reasons to dumb people down so they do not quesion or doubt. It is not a good thing at all. It is not what Allah would want.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Right here.


You clearly implied that there are no passages in the Bible that can be used to justify the killing of people of other religions, violence against women or any of the other horrors that you claim are intrinsic to the practice of Islam globally. The Bible tells people to murder their entire family for the "crime" of choosing a different religion. It tells people that it is just to slaughter entire communities of foreigners (except for the juicy young virgins), it tells people to kill young women for the "crime" of having sex. It tells people that slaves are property.

I see.

So why do you suppose that the people who agree with the beliefs of this Norway guy also say he was wrong to use violence?

Why is it that the anti-islamic authors have expressed regret that their writings have led to blood-sheed and do not rally around him (have a search for the Palestinians dancing in the street after 9-11 for a comparison).

The guy is still a throw-back and not in step with modern culture. Followers of Islam, on the other hand, are in step with their cultures. THe people who inspire them would agree with their actions.

Before infovlad shut down his webforum, there were lots of postings of videos speeking of the 19 lions of 9-11 in heartfelt glowing terms.

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that this guy in Norway, cracked open the Bible for guidance, and after reading it concluded he should go bomb kids from the Labour Party of his own country? I don't think he first read the bible and then decided to go run out and slaughter people. Otherwise, why did he look for justification (or an excuse) from a number of sources including the Unibomber Manifesto?

Oh and by the way, Mohammed owned slaves too. Should we emulate him? Wasn't it the West that forced the Arabs to give up slavery instead of the way you seem to imagine it? Did you sprinkle this slavery thing in because of emotion or because of reason?

All main christian sects say the bible is not to be taken literally. Even the Pope said this. It is not the same kind of thing with Islam.

I do not think you are (as they would say in the old west) "shooting straight" with me. Why don't you put your cards on the table and fess up. There must be some emotional rather than logical reason for your defending Islam. Otherwise, you are a mystery and I do not understand you. Either you are saying the Christianity is worse and we should all be fighting that or you are saying two wrongs make a right. Either idea does not hold water. Just this past year there have been three young Muslim men whom the FBI caught before they could bomb public gatherings of American families within a few miles of where I live. I do not see how finding some christian guy somewhere that you can point to mimimizes this.

Consider this. Nothing would have made a Liberal happier than if George W. Bush got caught having sex with an intern. That way the Liberal could point and say "look, see, mr, Republican, your guy does that too". That would assume several things. It would assume that the person being critical of Bill Clinton was a Republican (kind of like you assumeing I am a christian defender, which I am not, so your argument is faulty). So in a kind of sick way, the Norwegian bomber almost makes Islamic supporters happy that they not have someone to point to.

 

[FireGarden]

Foster and Fire, go start another discussion thread called "two wrongs make a right and we should all embrace Islam"

No.

Our jobs require us to use our brains more perhaps than any other job.

More tempting than your previous offer, Bill.

But, no.

I see.

So why do you suppose that the people who agree with the beliefs of this Norway guy also say he was wrong to use violence?

Clearly they don't agree with his beliefs. Because one of his beliefs is that it is correct to use violence.

What you should have asked was "why do people who agree with SOME of his beliefs say he was wrong?" But that would involve you having to admit an overlap of beliefs doesn't imply an exact copy of beliefs.

 

[Bill Thompson]

The guy in Norway attacked members of his own country who supported immigration laws that he disagreed with. He targetted his own countrymen and woman and their childrean. It would be kind of like if Al Qaeda had attacked the Saudis instead of New York City.

The fact that you are using the Norway bombings as an indication that there are christian terrorists who are just as evil as other terrorists is a weak argument and tells me you are willing to use anything to support Islam. I wonder why that is.

So tell me why.

 

[A'isha]

The guy in Norway attacked members of his own country who supported immigration laws that he disagreed with. He targetted his own countrymen and woman and their childrean.

You might want to read up on what's happening in places like Pakistan.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Foster and Fire, go start another discussion thread called "two wrongs make a right and we should all embrace Islam"

No.

Why not? It is what your argument here is.

 

[Bill Thompson]

You might want to read up on what's happening in places like Pakistan.

Because you suggest it? What do you think I would think of that?

A muslim facebook friend of mind said that the USA is supporting agents to try to overthrow Pakistan. Kudos. I think that is great and I asked him why was that a bad thing?

If a country aided this Norway bomber and wisked him out to safety. That government should be brought down.

Since Pakistan sent a helocopter to secretly wisk Osama bin Laden out to safety from Torra Borra, Pakistan should be brought down too.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Pakistan is in the news. Lots of stories. I cannot read your mind and guess what you are thinking. I think you want to change the subject for some reason. What interests me more is what that is.

 

[A'isha]

Pakistan is in the news. Lots of stories. I cannot read your mind and guess what you are thinking. I think you want to change the subject for some reason. What interests me more is what that is.

Because Muslim terrorists in Pakistan (and Iraq, and a number of other places) are "targett[ing] [their] own countrymen and woman and their childrean."

 

[Bill Thompson]

ANTPogo, Hitler was a Catholic. Do you think Catholisim made Hitler do what he did?

Making a religious case based on people who have politics as a motivating factor does not really prove anything.

 

[A'isha]

ANTPogo, Hitler was a Catholic. Do you think Catholisim made Hitler do what he did?

It certainly had an influence, though just how much Hitler's religious beliefs had to do with his sociopolitical beliefs and his ultimate actions has been a topic of debate for almost three quarters of a century.

But let me ask you something, Bill - let's say the true answer to the above is a wholehearted "Yes, Catholicism drove Hitler to do what he did."

What do you think that says about Christianity as a whole, and other Christians? What do you think that says about Catholicism as a whole, and other Catholics?

Making a religious case based on people who have politics as a motivating factor does not really prove anything.

You only seem to apply this exception to Christians.

 

[Foster Zygote]

ANTPogo, Hitler was a Catholic. Do you think Catholisim made Hitler do what he did?

Making a religious case based on people who have politics as a motivating factor does not really prove anything.

Does the irony of your statement register with you at all?

 

[Bill Thompson]

So you are saying Islam is an evil religion?

 

[Foster Zygote]

So you are saying Islam is an evil religion?

Are you deliberately obtuse, or is your reading comprehension really that limited?

I am saying that your statement, "making a religious case based on people who have politics as a motivating factor does not really prove anything", is ironic because what you are presently doing, in at least two threads regarding Islam, is making a religious case based on people who have politics as a motivating factor.

 

[A'isha]

So you are saying Islam is an evil religion?

I've answered this specific question at least a dozen times by now. This was the most recent one, said less than a week ago in this very thread:

What I don't understand is why you think my correction of your continual attempts to paint Islam as a monolithic religion with just one set of beliefs, commandments, and teachings is "arguing in defense of Islam."

I've not, nor will I ever, justify or even deny the existence of things like child marriage, mutilation of criminals, violent and aggressive jihad, or oppression of women among Muslims.

What I will do, however, is continue to correct the utterly mistaken notions that the above are exclusive to, inherent in, or universal in Islam. Despite the fact that that should be blatantly obvious to anyone who's bothered to look at what Muslims, scholars, and Muslim scholars say.

It almost disgusts me that I have to do the above, actually, since it's trivially easy for anyone to find reams of scholarly, theological, and historical information about the subject, revealing that "Islam" is just as "good", just as "evil", just as conflicted and contradictory and splintered as anything else that has to encompass the lives and views of 1.6 billion human beings and 1400 years of global history.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Foster, show me how Islam considers politics and religon to be seperate.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I've answered this specific question at least a dozen times by now. This was the most recent one, said less than a week ago in this very thread:

So you are saying it is not an evil religion?

Why did you even bother bringing up this guy in Norway at all?