Is Islam an evil religion?

[A'isha]

That was an awful quick transition from "Breivik wasn't a Christian and didn't think the Bible commanded him to do what he did!" to "Well, no real Christian supports him, the way all Muslims really supported Bin Laden!"

 

[Bill Thompson]

Then you should probably actually read the Bible (and the Koran, while you're at it).

Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If anyone secretly entices you—even if it is your brother, your father’s son or your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend—saying, ‘Let us go and worship other gods’, whom neither you nor your ancestors have known, any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. Then all Israel shall hear and be afraid, and never again do any such wickedness.

Exodus 32:21-29
Moses said to Aaron, ‘What did this people do to you that you have brought so great a sin upon them?’ And Aaron said, ‘Do not let the anger of my lord burn hot; you know the people, that they are bent on evil. They said to me, “Make us gods, who shall go before us; as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.” So I said to them, “Whoever has gold, take it off ”; so they gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!’

When Moses saw that the people were running wild (for Aaron had let them run wild, to the derision of their enemies), then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, ‘Who is on the Lord’s side? Come to me!’ And all the sons of Levi gathered around him. He said to them, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, “Put your sword on your side, each of you! Go back and forth from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbour.” ’ The sons of Levi did as Moses commanded, and about three thousand of the people fell on that day. Moses said, ‘Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of the Lord, each one at the cost of a son or a brother, and so have brought a blessing on yourselves this day.’

Numbers 32:13-18
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the congregation went to meet them outside the camp. Moses became angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. Moses said to them, ‘Have you allowed all the women to live? These women here, on Balaam’s advice, made the Israelites act treacherously against the Lord in the affair of Peor, so that the plague came among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves.

1 Samuel 15:1-3
Samuel said to Saul, ‘The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, “I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.” ’

Interesting passages. What the heck are you talking about, man?

Some text from the old testament about ancient Egypt and Moses about killing people told this guy to go kill people?

I hope you are kidding.

I fear you are not.

What are you talking about.

You are not making any sense

 

[Bill Thompson]

That was an awful quick transition from "Breivik wasn't a Christian and didn't think the Bible commanded him to do what he did!" to "Well, no real Christian supports him, the way all Muslims really supported Bin Laden!"

Some passages from Moses times told Breivik to kill people? How does that make sense?

I did not say "well no real christian supports him" You are not even quoting me when you say you do? I would not use some term like "real christian".

Why do you do that?

Why do you say I said things I never said?

Is getting the truth and having real logical dialog part of who you are or is it not?

The point is that this guy was going to use any text he could find to support what he did, even the Unibomber Manifesto. The arguement that the bible made him do it is weak and droopy and flimzy. He could quote the bible, but he would have done it even if he could not quote the bible.

Wait. Did I say "Breivik wasn't a Christian"? Show me where I said that.

Even the poeple who agree with this guy do not support what he did.

Even the people whom he got inspiration from do not support what he did

I never said there was no violence in the Bible.

you are accusing me of saying things I never said.

I have to ask you something? Do you value the truth? Or are you trying to piece together support for an opinion that is not really real. If so, please tell me why? I would like to know.

 

[A'isha]

Some passages from Moses times told Breivik to kill people? How does that make sense?

Well, it was only two passages from Moses' time. The rest were from varying points in Biblical history, all the way up to Jesus' own time.

I did not say "well no real christian supports him" You are not even quoting me when you say you do?

"Mainstream Christian establishment" means what, Bill?

And I liked how you were careful to say "Christian establishment" without specifying a nation, but called out the "Muslim establishment in Pakistan", as if those two things were directly comparable.

Is getting the truth and having real logical dialog part of who you are or is it not?

I'd be a lot more hurt by this accusation if you'd bother to actually to reply to my points sometime, instead of going off on weird tangents like your cribbing from Fury's book.

 

[Bill Thompson]

You don't get it.

You are the one who brought up this guy, not me.

You are the one who is trying to show that there are christian terrorists that are worse than Islamic terrorists, not me.

But christianity is not why this guy did what he did. he would have done it anyway. A nut case is a nut case and saying that the bible made him do it is just like saying the bible made the Unibomber do what he did. The truth is, even people that share this guys views would not have committed the murders like he did. It ain't the same deal with Islam. People that share the same views with Islamic Terrorists really would do the murders that they do.

It is you who are suggesing that this guy is just as bad or even worse than Islamic terrorists. I have shown you why that is not so.

So now you are trying to say stuff I never said. You even put misquotes within quotes.

Why is that?

 

[Lowpro]

But christianity Islam is not why this guy did what he did. he would have done it anyway. A nut case is a nut case and saying that the bible Quran made him do it is just like saying the bible made the Unibomber do what he did. The truth is, even people that share this guys views would not have committed the murders like he did. It ain't the same deal with Islam Christianity. People that share the same views with Islamic Terrorists The Inquisition really would do the murders that they do.

Temporal bias rears its ugly head to you Bill. BTW you just proved that it's not religion that makes people do wrong, it's social fiat (People that share the same views) I couldn't agree more. And that ain't exclusive to a particular religion...

 

[A'isha]

You are the one who is trying to show that there are christian terrorists that are worse than Islamic terrorists, not me.

No, I'm trying to show that there are people who use the Bible to justify violent and horrific acts, but that's not any kind of reflection on the many Christians who don't do or believe such things, nor on Christianity as a whole.

You know, the same thing you refuse to believe of the Qur'an and Islam.

But christianity is not why this guy did what he did. he would have done it anyway. A nut case is a nut case and saying that the bible made him do it is just like saying the bible made the Unibomber do what he did.

Did the Unabomber quote Bible verses about how God commands His followers to fight in self-defense, then say "in the context of cultural conservative Europeans current war against the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist elites and the ongoing Islamic invasion through Islamic demographic warfare against Europe, every military action against our enemies is considered self defence," shortly before killing almost 100 people because he thought they were those very "cultural Marxist/multiculturalist elites" who were leaving his country defenseless against "the ongoing Islamic invasion through Islamic demographic warfare"?

The truth is, even people that share this guys views would not have committed the murders like he did. It ain't the same deal with Islam. People that share the same views with Islamic Terrorists really would do the murders that they do.

*sigh*

It is you who are suggesing that this guy is just as bad or even worse than Islamic terrorists. I have shown you why that is not so.

Actually, no, you're merely asserting it over and over, ignoring the words of actual Muslims on the subject in favor of quoting the views and words of the exact same Islamophobes that Breivik admired and followed.

 

[Nogbad]

Is the mainstream official Christian establishment secretly supporting this guy like the much of the mainstream Islamic establishment in Pakistan seemed to be secretly supporting Osama bin Laden?

The mainstream Christian establishment is the Catholic Church. It has, I think you would agree, moments in its history it would like to forget. Religion and politics are hard to separate, especially at the big organisational level.

Breivik is unhinged but then so are the handful of Muslim terrorists that attacked the West. In places like Iraq where there are tit for tat killings and sectarian violence the unhingedness is fuelled by a thirst for revenge.

Is Islam Evil? Not especially, I don't think. Most Muslims get on with ordinary lives just like most Christians and are kind, decent, mean, greedy, deceitful, just like everybody else. However, it doesn't appeal to me - way too legalistic.

Philosophies don't kill people, people do - but a fully loaded philosophy helps obviously

 

[Foster Zygote]

Interesting passages. What the heck are you talking about, man?

Some text from the old testament about ancient Egypt and Moses about killing people told this guy to go kill people?

I hope you are kidding.

I fear you are not.

What are you talking about.

You are not making any sense

[qimg]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQRxIFTM-OAC_nJ-HkSXds7rzink61eLwokdrG_dGtFBEdiXFD[/qimg]

You have a great deal of difficulty following the strands of debates.

You made the claim that the Bible, unlike the Koran, does not contain horrific passages that, if taken literally, can be used to justify violence and hatred, even genocide. You are absolutely, pathetically, transparently wrong about this. The above attempt at deflection cannot cover the fact that you are grossly ignorant of not only the Koran, but the Bible as well.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Then you should probably actually read the Bible (and the Koran, while you're at it).

Deuteronomy 13:6-10
If anyone secretly entices you—even if it is your brother, your father’s son or your mother’s son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend—saying, ‘Let us go and worship other gods’, whom neither you nor your ancestors have known, any of the gods of the peoples that are around you, whether near you or far away from you, from one end of the earth to the other, you must not yield to or heed any such persons. Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Stone them to death for trying to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. Then all Israel shall hear and be afraid, and never again do any such wickedness.

Exodus 32:21-29
Moses said to Aaron, ‘What did this people do to you that you have brought so great a sin upon them?’ And Aaron said, ‘Do not let the anger of my lord burn hot; you know the people, that they are bent on evil. They said to me, “Make us gods, who shall go before us; as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.” So I said to them, “Whoever has gold, take it off ”; so they gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!’

When Moses saw that the people were running wild (for Aaron had let them run wild, to the derision of their enemies), then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, ‘Who is on the Lord’s side? Come to me!’ And all the sons of Levi gathered around him. He said to them, ‘Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, “Put your sword on your side, each of you! Go back and forth from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbour.” ’ The sons of Levi did as Moses commanded, and about three thousand of the people fell on that day. Moses said, ‘Today you have ordained yourselves for the service of the Lord, each one at the cost of a son or a brother, and so have brought a blessing on yourselves this day.’

Numbers 32:13-18
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the congregation went to meet them outside the camp. Moses became angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. Moses said to them, ‘Have you allowed all the women to live? These women here, on Balaam’s advice, made the Israelites act treacherously against the Lord in the affair of Peor, so that the plague came among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves.

1 Samuel 15:1-3
Samuel said to Saul, ‘The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. Thus says the Lord of hosts, “I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.” ’

Foster, do you think I am too stupid to know that there is horrible violence in the bible?

 

[Bill Thompson]

You have a great deal of difficulty following the strands of debates.

You made the claim that the Bible, unlike the Koran, does not contain horrific passages that, if taken literally, can be used to justify violence and hatred, even genocide. You are absolutely, pathetically, transparently wrong about this. The above attempt at deflection cannot cover the fact that you are grossly ignorant of not only the Koran, but the Bible as well.

I never said nor implied any of that.
Show me. Show me where I made the claim that the bible does not contain violence.

 

[Bill Thompson]

ANTPogo, you brought up this Norwegian guy, not me. It came out of the blue. You seemed to imply that he is a christian terrorist. Am I right?

Here is the deal. I know you are smart enough to know that this guy never did this stuff because of Christianity. So why do you even mention him?

The people that you say are his "inspiration" do not support what he did.

The people who think like he does would never agree what he did was right.

So what is your point?

 

[Bill Thompson]

The mainstream Christian establishment is the Catholic Church.

That is not true.

It is pretty amaizing that you say it is, tho.

Insulting 10 million Greeks in 8 words not to mention several other sects is something I could not do even if I tried.

I tiried to read the rest of your post but my eyes were burning.

OK, I feel better, I will go back to what you were saying.

I think you would agree, moments in its history it would like to forget.

Yeah, that is why I fought so hard with my mother-in-law to make sure my son wasn't baptised into the Catholic Church.

Are we strolling down the memory lane of history or do you have any real point to make?

Are you arguing that two wrongs make a right?

Breivik is unhinged but then so are the handful of Muslim terrorists that attacked the West.

Yes and no. Mostly no. And it is a very very big and important no

You watch too much CNN, MSNBC and not enough FrontLine or PBS or listen to NPR or any other authentic news that tres to get the facts right instead of tell you what people want to hear so that the listen to the commercials.

The fact is none of the prisoners in Gitmo can be classified as "unhinged". That is how western media wants to portray them. The fact is, as I heard during an interview with Americans who have been there. The most dangerous Al Qaeda members are very pious, submissive and mostly just pray and they hardly ever complain. They are not monsters. They are not Nazis. THere are pious faithful and take the Quran for what it says. They are just fundamentalists.

No defense lawyer for the terrorists at Gitmo could use the insanity defense.

On the other hand, I think anyone who uses the Unibomber as a reference like this Norwegian guy could use the insanity defense.

Is Islam Evil? Not especially, I don't think.

THere you go. Now you said one sentence that is right -- actually the second half is right. I will stop reading now.

 

[Giordano]

oooo I am so scared of some christrian redneck trying to take away my right to an abortion. I am sooooo scared.
No they are not, man. I fear real threats like being stabbed in the street for revealing the secret to the Satanic Verses online.
And reaching back in history doesn't mean a damn thing.

I'm not talking about the Crusades, Bill! As I mentioned in my first post, only 60 years ago (less than one person's life time) my relatives in Eastern Europe who failed to emigrate to the US in time were hunted down and killed by Christians, some of whom were wearing Got mit uns on their belt buckles (sorry for the Goodwin). Does that reach back in history too much for you? I see similar craziness and intolerance in the Christian fundamentalists currently dominating the US Republican party. Beyond the more prominent candidates merely seeking to take away my freedoms and destroy my country, have you not noticed that there are other Christians in the US and Europe who have proclaimed they would like to go further and wipe me and my family from the face of the earth?

When does history begin anyway- isn't 9-11-2001 history? Isn't yesterday history? History is how we predict the future.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I'm not talking about the Crusades, Bill! As I mentioned in my first post, only 60 years ago (less than one person's life time) my relatives in Eastern Europe who failed to emigrate to the US in time were hunted down and killed by Christians, some of whom were wearing Got mit uns on their belt buckles (sorry for the Goodwin). Does that reach back in history too much for you? I see similar craziness and intolerance in the Christian fundamentalists currently dominating the US Republican party. Beyond the more prominent candidates merely seeking to take away my freedoms and destroy my country, have you not noticed that there are other Christians in the US and Europe who have proclaimed they would like to go further and wipe me and my family from the face of the earth?

When does history begin anyway- isn't 9-11-2001 history? Isn't yesterday history? History is how we predict the future.

Uh huh. So what is your point? I never get this christian stuff in a forum about Islam. So are you saying I should fear Christians coming after me?

I don't know any more about what you are talking about apart from what you are telling me. I don't doubt you, and to be honest, if not for 9-11, I might be on an anti-Catholic campaign, but by the time 9-11 had rolled around I was kind of running out of steam about it.

Anyway, ok so christians did this horrible thing to you personally. I don't know anything about it apart from some guy posted about it on a web forum. Your comments are too general to know anything.

Help me out here. Be specific. Who? What? Where? When? How?

And, exactly what is your point. By "point" I do not mean ramdom facts. I got enough of that from Craig and he never really came around to making a point. By point, I mean, if we were talking about how bad glaucoma is, for example, and you came in here and told me that the real evil is athlete's foot, I would need some sound logic to back that up.

Are christian politicians evil because they are christian or are they evil because the evil ones are just stupid anyway? For example, people saying they want creationsim taught in schools is a stupid thing, not a christian thing. My brother is a Lutherian and he was once on this nonsense until I explained to him patiently how stupid it was. As far as I know, he is still a Lutherian tho.

I know fear is a great tool for the Democratic party. You gotta watch out for those damn right wing zombies taking our right to an abortion, right? But it is not usually real.

I also know when people are politically motivated they kind of stretch the truth and exaggerate and fib a little. (Pious Fraud, anyone?) As long as it makes others emotional and vote along their lines, it might be dishonest, but the ends justify the means. I am not calling you a liar, but your vague, general proclamation about a evil horde of Christians does not pin down anything tangible.

 

[Craig B]

For a newly published study of organised Islamophobia see http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/08/islamophobia.html

 

[Giordano]

Uh huh. So what is your point? I never get this christian stuff in a forum about Islam. So are you saying I should fear Christians coming after me?

I don't know any more about what you are talking about apart from what you are telling me. I don't doubt you, and to be honest, if not for 9-11, I might be on an anti-Catholic campaign, but by the time 9-11 had rolled around I was kind of running out of steam about it.

Anyway, ok so christians did this horrible thing to you personally. I don't know anything about it apart from some guy posted about it on a web forum. Your comments are too general to know anything.

Help me out here. Be specific. Who? What? Where? When? How?

And, exactly what is your point. By "point" I do not mean ramdom facts. I got enough of that from Craig and he never really came around to making a point. By point, I mean, if we were talking about how bad glaucoma is, for example, and you came in here and told me that the real evil is athlete's foot, I would need some sound logic to back that up.

Are christian politicians evil because they are christian or are they evil because the evil ones are just stupid anyway? For example, people saying they want creationsim taught in schools is a stupid thing, not a christian thing. My brother is a Lutherian and he was once on this nonsense until I explained to him patiently how stupid it was. As far as I know, he is still a Lutherian tho.

I know fear is a great tool for the Democratic party. You gotta watch out for those damn right wing zombies taking our right to an abortion, right? But it is not usually real.

I also know when people are politically motivated they kind of stretch the truth and exaggerate and fib a little. (Pious Fraud, anyone?) As long as it makes others emotional and vote along their lines, it might be dishonest, but the ends justify the means. I am not calling you a liar, but your vague, general proclamation about a evil horde of Christians does not pin down anything tangible.

I've re-iterated my point in all of my three posts: there is no one one evil religion; they are all dangerous. They all are used by some of their followers to justify evil deeds. I repeatedly explained that I was not bashing Christianity any more than Islam, or Judaism for that matter. What's the hard part to get? If you are saying cancer is bad, I'm saying heart attacks suck, too.

"ok so christians did this horrible thing to you personally. I don't know anything about it apart from some guy posted about it on a web forum. Your comments are too general to know anything."
Hmm- it happened about 60 years ago, it involved my grandparents' siblings being killed in Eastern Europe by people who were Christians and wore belt buckles with German sayings, and I was born into a religion that wasn't Christian and wasn't Moslem. That's a tough riddle, Bill... Would their names help you any? Or, oh, maybe you can just take a wild guess as to the events to which I refer..

But again, why do you think I'm bashing Christians in particular for this "horrible thing" they did to me "personally"? I wasn't even born back then. I don't blame Christians as a whole for it. A different bunch of Christians (and Moslems and Jews and Buddhists and atheists) fought and died to undo the Nazis and the Axis. My point (again, because you seem to have trouble understanding it) is that all religions can do nasty things. And why do you twice bring up abortions? I've not mentioned abortions in this thread at all. I assure you that I myself will never, ever get an abortion.

Anyway, it's a pleasure conversing with you, but this playing dumb act is getting old.

 

[Giordano]

Sorry- re prior post: Events took place 70 years ago. It's late night here, and my subtraction skills are impaired.

 

[Nogbad]

That is not true.

It is pretty amaizing that you say it is, tho.

Insulting 10 million Greeks in 8 words not to mention several other sects is something I could not do even if I tried.

I tiried to read the rest of your post but my eyes were burning.

OK, I feel better, I will go back to what you were saying.

Bill you must have a different definition of the word mainstream from me. I have no connection to the Catholic Church, no one in my family has been Catholic for hundreds of years but I can step back and see that world wide Catholicism is the mainstream Christian religion, albeit there are hundreds of other variations. The Eastern Orthodox Churches are in fact the mainstream in their respective countries just as Protestantism is in a number of others. But overall Catholicism is the single most popular flavour. I think it has more adherents than all the rest put together. My comment indicated nothing more sinister than this fact.

On insanity, where does one draw the line? Is sitting in a cell quietly praying all day hoping for the opportunity to get out to blow oneself and others up wholly sane? Breivik certainly has lost the plot - his 15,000 page manifesto would indicate he was lost on planet X years ago. However, insanity does not have to be Hitleresque shouting and ranting. It can be a quiet sociopathic determination that the person is the agent for God/truth and that innocent others are acceptable collateral damage. In fact much like Breivik. Is fundamentalism ever sane?

I don't watch the TV stations you mention. I tend to get my News on Radio Scotland on the way to work. I sometimes watch Fox News on satellite TV for a laugh though (but only in very small doses).

 

[FireGarden]

It depends on what he was saying when he mentioned the Bible. Breivik was very explicit that he was doing what he was doing to protect "Christian Europe" from the very threat people like Robert Spencer have ranted about for years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Christianity

The manifesto states its author is "100 percent Christian",[6] but he is not "excessively religious"[6] and considers himself a "cultural Christian" and a "modern-day crusader" ...

His manifesto states "I'm not going to pretend I'm a very religious person, as that would be a lie", calls religion a crutch and a source for drawing mental strength, and says "I've always been very pragmatic and influenced by my secular surroundings and environment"; regarding the term "cultural Christian" which he says means preserving European culture, he notes "It is enough that you are a Christian-agnostic or a Christian-atheist (an atheist who wants to preserve at least the basics of the European Christian cultural legacy...

And then I read the quotes you give from his manifesto.
He does sound confused.

btw,
Googling for Breivik's comments, I found this defence of Darwinianismists:
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2011/07/the-norway-murd.html

(Or whatever Creationists call us now).