Is Islam an evil religion?

[Bill Thompson]

Bill

Originally Posted by Craig B

Your response

Seriously, no. If I was transported back to 1860, I would have missed by 4 years the chance to vote for anybody in 1856.

That is supposition. You suppose I was still meaning this silliness about a time machine. Don't use suppostion. Try facts for a change.

Since you are trying to use Wiki to substitute for your lack of High School History, why not try going to the library and read some books.

You could read some of Ibn Waraq's books or blogs. He does a great job in equating Islam to Slavery.

I did not just pull that out of the air like your bit about the Catholic Church.

If you have a beef with the Catholic Church, why not start another discussion thread.

Mosab Hassan Yousef wrote a book. I will even buy it and ship it to you. It will open your eyes provided you can and will read it.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Bill

Your astounding statement below is pure 1856 Know Nothingism. People raised in Catholic societies are brainwashed. They can't think properly. They see the world differently. Know Nothing conclusion? Same as Ali Sina hate site conclusion re Muslims - same as your own stated conclusion about Spanish and Greek Muslims - keep them out, and if they're here already, throw them out.

Uh Huh. I think I can learn a lot from you. Let's start with this. How is it that your constant bringing up of Christianity in a web form about Islam not bare-faced raging lunacy?

My sources that discuss the problems with Islam come from ex-Muslims. You keep bringing up Christianity. Why not start a new discussion thread about Christianity?

 

[Craig B]

Uh Huh. I think I can learn a lot from you. Let's start with this. How is it that your constant bringing up of Christianity in a web form about Islam not bare-faced raging lunacy?

My sources that discuss the problems with Islam come from ex-Muslims. You keep bringing up Christianity. Why not start a new discussion thread about Christianity?

You've tried this too many times Bill, and now you are resorting to frantic ad hominem vituperation, for which I hope the moderator doesn't come after you with a blue pencil again! And once more you appear to be creating a smokescreen to hide your unwillingness to address cogent objections to your various statements about Islam. Moreover if it's lunacy to discuss Christianity in a thread about Islam, is it not some kind of super-duper lunacy to raise the issue of the 1856 Democratic Party in a thread about Islam?

I appeal to anyone else on this thread who sees sense in what Bill is saying, to come forward and support him, because I simply don't understand what he can possibly mean, that in a thread about the evil of a particular religion, comparisons with other religions may not be made.

In any case, my point clearly was to compare Bill's views with those of the bigots of the 1856 elections. And it was Bill, not me, who raised the issue of the political parties existing in that year.

 

[Bill Thompson]

No I am not. I am saying that this line of questioning and reasoning is crazy. I am not attacking the messenger.

Christianity has nothing to do with Islam.

Muslims were kicked out of Greece and Spain by the Catholics and the Orthodox Christians. Let's go cry in our coffee. It does not have anything to do with anything.

Also, you seem to be saying that genocide is actually a bad thing. Do you expect anyone will argue this with you?

 

[Craig B]

Muslims were kicked out of Greece and Spain by the Catholics and the Orthodox Christians. Let's go cry in our coffee. It does not have anything to do with anything.

So not only does Christianity have nothing to do with a thread about Islam, now we find that Muslims have nothing to do with a thread about Islam. That doesn't leave us with very much, does it?

Don't cry in your coffee. Makes it salty. By the way, this dismissive coffee quip tells me, and no doubt others, how seriously to take your, I love Muslims, some of my best friends ... etc, stuff. You let the mask drop there, I am sorry to say.

 

[Bill Thompson]

I have been reading testimonials from ex-muslims and I have learned a lot. I stumbled upon this. Craig, one of the web sites that you insisted was a "hate site" was actually a site started by someone who had been a Muslim and left Islam. I think that is rather strange that you would call such a site a "hate site". I wonder what your deal is.

I mean, the ex-muslim probably loves muslims but hates Islam. He would have no problem with that. Hating a belief is not hating the people who have that belief.

I also wonder why you think it is so bad that the Greeks drove the Turks out of Greece without leaving any trace of Islam. Why is that a terrible thing?

 

[Bill Thompson]

So not only does Christianity have nothing to do with a thread about Islam, now we find that Muslims have nothing to do with a thread about Islam. That doesn't leave us with very much, does it?

Don't cry in your coffee. Makes it salty. By the way, this dismissive coffee quip tells me, and no doubt others, how seriously to take your, I love Muslims, some of my best friends ... etc, stuff. You let the mask drop there, I am sorry to say.

Well, one can hate Scientology and still love Tom Cruise movies. Do you know what I mean?

I mean, don't you think it would be silly to hate Tom Cruise just because he is practically the new prophet of Scientology? I mean, even if you hate Scientology.

Christianity is not a counter-balance to Islam. Showing how bad Christianity is does not somehow make Islam good. Do you think it does? Please explain how that works.

 

[Craig B]

Bill

Your above post #1026 requires no comment. Let it stand unchallenged as a monument to your reasoning, and a testament to your basic human qualities.

 

[zooterkin]

No I am not. I am saying that this line of questioning and reasoning is crazy. I am not attacking the messenger.

Christianity has nothing to do with Islam.

Muslims were kicked out of Greece and Spain by the Catholics and the Orthodox Christians. Let's go cry in our coffee. It does not have anything to do with anything.

Also, you seem to be saying that genocide is actually a bad thing. Do you expect anyone will argue this with you?

Without Muslims, as I noted earlier, you wouldn't have any coffee to cry into.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Without Muslims, as I noted earlier, you wouldn't have any coffee to cry into.

What about Columbia? Didn't the Columbians discover coffee too?

Anyway, Islam did not play a role in the discovery of coffee even if it was done by a Muslim.

Let's look at the contribution of Islam on society. Today we have Islam to thank for teaching kids that evolution is a lie, the heavens are like a shell around the earth and even sometimes that the earth is flat. And the only book you need for any information is the Quran.

Can I give my coffee back to them?

 

[Bill Thompson]

Bill

Your above post #1026 requires no comment. Let it stand unchallenged as a monument to your reasoning, and a testament to your basic human qualities.

You do not explain yourself.

I ask you why is it a bad thing that the Greeks drove the Turks out of their own country and all you say is basically "ah-hah!".

Why is it a bad thing that the Greeks drove the Turks out of Greece?

 

[Craig B]

You do not explain yourself.

I ask you why is it a bad thing that the Greeks drove the Turks out of their own country and all you say is basically "ah-hah!".

Why is it a bad thing that the Greeks Drove the Turks out of Greece?

Naughty boy, Bill. You asked nothing of the sort! You're (I hope inadvertently - vain hope?) mixing up 2 issues. Remember, you said "Muslims were kicked out of Greece, let's cry in our coffee. Not "Turks". So don't change the subject, please. It will confuse some uninformed readers, and we don't want that, do we?

Greece gained independence from the (Muslim) Ottoman "Turkish" Empire in 1821. But a century later Greece invaded the now secular nation state of Turkey, which was by then dismantling the Ottoman Empire, and Greece having been defeated, expelled her own Muslim citizens, many or most of whom were ethnic Slavs, not ethnic Turks. Two entirely different processes, and you ought to know this. Ought, at the very least. (I'm being very polite to you.) The Turks meanwhile expelled their ethnic Greek citizens, and this was all ratified at the peace treaty.

Let me take an analogy. The Bosnians ceased to be ruled by Ottoman Turks in the nineteenth century. But there is a large population of (ethnic Slav) Muslims in that country. If these were suddenly expelled (and they have recently suffered worse at Christian hands) would it be sensible to say, well who cares about the Ottoman Empire anyway? To say that would be the height of ignorance.

Ireland was ruled by a mainly Protestant UK, until 90 years ago. Is getting independence back in the 1920s the same as if the Irish Republic was to expel all its Protestant citizens today, 90 years later? That is effectively what you're saying about European Muslim populations, and it's silly, to say the least.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Naughty boy, Bill. You asked nothing of the sort!

I just did. Here, I will do it again. Why is it a bad thing that the Greeks drove the Turks out of Greece?

Oh. Pshaw, the Muslims not the Turks. Aren't the Turks muslim?

Greece gained independence from the (Muslim) Ottoman "Turkish" Empire in 1821. But a century later Greece invaded the now secular nation state of Turkey, which was by then dismantling the Ottoman Empire, and Greece having been defeated, expelled her own Muslim citizens, many or most of whom were ethnic Slavs, not ethnic Turks. Two entirely different processes, and you ought to know this. Ought, at the very least. (I'm being very polite to you.) The Turks meanwhile expelled their ethnic Greek citizens, and this was all ratified at the peace treaty.

This is news to me. I will have to check on this. I want to know why Greece invaded Turkey. I have only heard one side of this and it is the Greek side.

You do know I am a yank and all this is basically like talking about what happened on another world to me, right?

Now, the big question is this. How does this make Islam look good in any way?

You know, one could say that USA invaded Japan. Little snips of history rarely tell the whole story. I have the feeling that this is happening here too.

 

[Craig B]

I want to know why Greece invaded Turkey.

The Turks had just been defeated in the First World War and the Greeks wanted to grab Constantinople / Istanbul (main Greek-ruled city until Ottoman conquest in 1453, and place of residence of Orthodox Patriarch) and Western Anatolia (location of great ethnic Greek city of Smyrna / Izmir). But the new nationalist Turkish administration was able to rally the country's population and drive out the Greek army. The main victims were the minorities in each country, and in particular the Greek people of Smyrna, who were despoiled and expelled, and whose city was burned to the ground.

That's what religious and ethnic hate does. Be warned!

 

[Bill Thompson]

You know, everyone I have met so far all over the world tell me that the USA was wrong in dropping the nuclear bombs on Japan. But if you talk to the people of that age who would have either died or lost their husbands in an invasion of Japan... or even some of the the Japanese themselves, you get a different story.

When I was in Greece, I never got the feeling that they thought something like "gee, we messed up when we invaded Turkey. We were really wrong to do that, we should appologise to Turkey for that because we were really out of line". Instead I got the feeling that it was Turkey who wronged Greece and somehow -- as they said because they were Mulsim -- that kind of conquesting nature was part of who they were because of the religion they believed in.

Now some guy from the UK is telling me differently? Humm.... I am suspicious of the angle you give me and wonder if you are telling me a story viewed from your particular lense.

 

[Craig B]

Bill

that kind of conquesting nature was part of who they were because of the religion they believed in.

I really can't see good evidence for that. In the 18th and 19th centuries the Ottomans were in retreat, and their neighbours were recovering or taking lands from them. In 1911 Italy took Libya, in 1882, Britain took Egypt, in 1913 Greece took Crete and Rhodes. It doesn't seem to make much difference whether Empires are Christian or Muslim; they are all capable of aggression.

And it doesn't matter if subject peoples are Christian or Muslim; they are all capable of resistance.

 

[Bill Thompson]

So what I think you are saying is this. Now, correct me if I am wrong. You are saying that religious intollerance is to blame for the Greeks needlessly invading Turkey and the result was a lot of needless innocent deaths. Is this right?

 

[catsmate]

You could read some of Ibn Waraq's books or blogs. He does a great job in equating Islam to Slavery. "A slavery of the mind. Take the blue pill, Neo."

Seriously, I have read a lot of what this guy has written. And I have debated with Muslims as well and saw how they use a kind of child-like mentality in rationalizing things. So, when I read one passage where Ibn Warraq wrote that people who are raised in Islamic societies never develop the capacity to think rationally or see the world for what it is, it struck a note of truth with me.

Mosab Hassan Yousef says less kinder words as well. He says Islam is like poison. Slavery, one could argue, was like poison too.

You could say the same about xianity.

 

[Leumas]

You know, one could say that USA invaded Japan. Little snips of history rarely tell the whole story. I have the feeling that this is happening here too.

In fact that is EXACTLY what happened.... Japan used to be an isolationist country that wanted to be left alone. But the USA invaded it to force it to open its ports for trade.....INVADED IT.

• http://www.corvalliscommunitypages.com/asia_pacific/japan/perryinjapanall.htm
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_C._Perry#The_Perry_Expedition:_Opening_of_Japan.2C_1852-1854

If only people knew history....they would know more about WHY things are the way they are and may not be as self-righteous about who they are.

 

[Foster Zygote]

I have been reading testimonials from ex-muslims and I have learned a lot. I stumbled upon this. Craig, one of the web sites that you insisted was a "hate site" was actually a site started by someone who had been a Muslim and left Islam. I think that is rather strange that you would call such a site a "hate site". I wonder what your deal is.

Yet you are the one who claimed that Lincoln hated Catholics because you believed the lies of Charles Chiniquy, a former Catholic priest who wrote hateful things about his former faith. If Chiniquy can turn from faith to hate, why is it not possible for a Muslim to do the same?