Is Anorexia really a disease?

[Professor Yaffle]

I totally understand what you are saying. Not.

Oops, children calling and I neglected to proofread my post.

 

[Dancing David]

My point is its not like schizophrenia or cancer in that you condition yourself to become this way because of the choices you make. That's why I have a probably sympathizing with anorexics or alcoholics.

And you have presented no evidence other than your opinion, if it is like other anxiety disorders it has a biological and a conditioned basis.

What evidence do you have that it is strictly behavioral, other than your stigma?

 

[Dancing David]

Anorexics and alcoholics don't condition themselves to become that way because of choices they make.

There is a fair amount of conditioning in alcoholism, however if you are self medicating to treat bipolar disorder then it is not strictly behavioral. Also some people are more likely to abuse certain substances, not an excuse, an explanation.

 

[Dancing David]

Just because you die from it doesn't give me a reason to believe it is a disease. People die from car wrecks. That does not make it a disease.

You have presented no evidence that there is not a biological basis for anorexia nervosa. Just your opinion.

 

[Dancing David]

That is why it seems more to me like alcoholism and not like schizophrenia. You can't help it when you have schizophrenia.

And your evidence that there is not a biological basis to anxiety disorders is?

Hey where is that test for schizophrenia?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Doing a search for schizophrenia blood test brings up a lot of news stories from various years, but nothing definitive. I would expect to have heard about it if a reliable diagnostic blood test for schizophrenia was now being used.

 

[Dancing David]

I totally understand what you are saying. Not.

Why not both are applicable models for treatment, I think that medication is benefiacial as well. There is something going on for the distorted body image. It is an intrusive thought which is a hall mark of OCD.

Now many mistaken feminsist therapists have some grandiose delusions about the nature of anorexia nervosa.

 

[Dancing David]

Actually there is also a blood test that people take to see if they have schizophrenia. I have a friend who suffers from this as well.

Pony up dude, where is your evidence?

I worked in mental health until three years ago, and in fact i was doing ER screens for psych admissions.

So data, evidence, what test? Is it a dopamine spill test or what?

The whole point of this thread is so I can have a better understanding of anorexia. You are resorting to personal attacks and not doing anything to teach me, only insult me. I am not trying to take the place of a mental health professional.

You came in with a chip on your shoulder, how much research have you done to inform your stigmatizing opinion?

Hmmm, did you read the PubMed links?

My whole point of coming to this forum is to learn. Yes, I have my opinions of things and they can be callous at times but I am willing to change my opinion if I am given the proper information.

No excuse for the statements you made about anorexics or people whos elf mutilate. there are some who do it for attention and those who don't.
If you start rude you get rude.
Where is your evidence that it is not a biological process in part?

Hmm, debating a friend and just making stuff up?

I have no respect for alcoholics but schizophrenics are an entirely different matter.

And what is the co-morbidity of bipolar disorder and alcoholism. Hmmm?

[qupte]
From what I know there is no cure for schizophrenia and not once in my OP did I insult anyone for having schizophrenia (and for that matter cancer or diabetes).
[/quote]
You use the same debate tactics and styles to defame those with anorexia nervosa, claim it to be the product of self pity and present no evidence? Same stuff i used to hear from people about schizophrenia?

"the pity factor with which sufferers seem to love, and the fact that you are not born with it or that you are consciously hurting yourself for selfish reasons"

So you want me to treat you better than you do people living with a condition you are lacking knowledge of. Sure.

Ok dude, its obvious that you missed my point in the title and the OP. You have not given me any evidence to suggest that I should think otherwise. I would like to hear from someone who is more professional.

I did, you just avoided it, there is lots of data which suggests a biological basis as part of the process, you have prersented any period.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I an come with more, that was from a minute look at PubMed, so what have you got?

 

[MikeMangum]

Frankly, alcoholism and anorexia's end result is disease and death so I don't get your point at all.

The end result of many risky behaviors that are completely voluntary can be death as well. Is drug smuggling a disease? Is smoking a disease? The point he is trying to argue is about responsibility. When we say someone has a disease, it removes or at least reduces responsibility for the behavior in question. If someone has Tuorette's, we excuse their behavior; they aren't responsible for what they say, it's a disease. If smoking (which is essentially identical to alchoholism without the added fatalities from car accidents) is considered a disease, merely labelling it so will reduce the responsibility of smokers in the minds of many.

Some people want to, through labelling, remove all responsibility for some voluntary behaviors. Others want to completely ignore the effects of brain chemistry on behaviors. The problem is that we want a binary answer to whether something is a disease or not, when in reality it is a continuum.

 

[Dancing David]

Google: Biological basis for anorexia nervosa
I haven't read it
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ical+basis+for+anorexia+nervosa&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

 

[Epok]

A question for Epok.

Do you have any habits you have ever thought you should break, but have failed to actually make the effort?

Could be anything- untidiness, smoking, masturbation, talking too loudly, not washing the dishes for days?

None of these is likely to kill you, though they might induce someone else to- but if you think about what actually happens in your head when you consider taking action then fail,- maybe this is exactly what happens in the similar, but more harmful case of someone displaying anorexic behaviour?

I listened yesterday to a radio interview with a man who developed agoraphobia after a panic attack. What he described sounded to my unqualified ears like a neural event of some sort- fit, stroke, something. It got me wondering how many aberrant behaviours arise from such an event. If there's anything to this, the behaviour itself is not an illness; it's a consequence of a neural problem that may have occurred years before- just as a limp is not a disease, but may be a consequence of a fall years ago.

I agree with you that some folk do use the "I'm ill" excuse, when they seem to be just lazy , self indulgent and weak willed. but that doesn't mean all behavioural disorders are imaginary.

It can be hard to tell sometimes.

That makes a lot more sense than a lot the replies I have been getting. I could concede that there are some extreme cases that are not brought on by choice. But I do feel that some people use it as an excuse, such as alcoholics.

I did go through a period where I was drinking excessively (everyday) but I eventually came to my senses after I got a DUI and had to go to an AA meeting. After hearing these people say how helpless they were and calling themselves losers I decided I just needed to make a conscious effort to stop what I was doing and to quit being selfish. I still drink every now and then but I don't go to the excesses that I used to. Thanks for bringing up a good point.

 

[Dancing David]

The end result of many risky behaviors that are completely voluntary can be death as well. Is drug smuggling a disease? Is smoking a disease? The point he is trying to argue is about responsibility. When we say someone has a disease, it removes or at least reduces responsibility for the behavior in question. If someone has Tuorette's, we excuse their behavior; they aren't responsible for what they say, it's a disease. If smoking (which is essentially identical to alchoholism without the added fatalities from car accidents) is considered a disease, merely labelling it so will reduce the responsibility of smokers in the minds of many.

Some people want to, through labelling, remove all responsibility for some voluntary behaviors. Others want to completely ignore the effects of brain chemistry on behaviors. The problem is that we want a binary answer to whether something is a disease or not, when in reality it is a continuum.

Now the responsibility for how you respond is a whole other issue, i agree.

But the use of disease is again non-profession, even for anxiety disorders.

there are various standards of care for a person living with a mental illness:
1. Uniformed-very little obligation
2. Informed, some responsibility to get help
3. Fully informed, a greater responsibility to get help.

But it is just like people with heart disease who don't get treatmen and do things that are unhealthy. they should do more the more they know, but they don't.

Part of anorexia nervosa (and I mean the real deal, not the ones who just read it on the internet and don't have it) is that there is a peceptual distortion of their body. It is very similar to anxieety disorders in taht way and very similar to depression, not so much to psychosis. There are also intrusive thoughts, similar to anxiety and compulsive behaviors also common to anxiety.

Now you are quite right, they are not 'diseases' the way that a chlera infection is, but they are biologically based disorders taht in different ways fall along different behavioral vs. biological spectrum.

 

[Epok]

You have presented no evidence that there is not a biological basis for anorexia nervosa. Just your opinion.

I can't prove that there isn't an omnipotent god but it is up to the believer to prove that there is.

 

[Epok]

The end result of many risky behaviors that are completely voluntary can be death as well. Is drug smuggling a disease? Is smoking a disease? The point he is trying to argue is about responsibility. When we say someone has a disease, it removes or at least reduces responsibility for the behavior in question. If someone has Tuorette's, we excuse their behavior; they aren't responsible for what they say, it's a disease. If smoking (which is essentially identical to alchoholism without the added fatalities from car accidents) is considered a disease, merely labelling it so will reduce the responsibility of smokers in the minds of many.

Some people want to, through labelling, remove all responsibility for some voluntary behaviors. Others want to completely ignore the effects of brain chemistry on behaviors. The problem is that we want a binary answer to whether something is a disease or not, when in reality it is a continuum.

Thank you, that is my point exactly.

 

[Dancing David]

That makes a lot more sense than a lot the replies I have been getting. I could concede that there are some extreme cases that are not brought on by choice. But I do feel that some people use it as an excuse, such as alcoholics.

Some people, that is not a qualifier you used in the OP, there are people who use anything as an excuse.

that is a more reasonable statement.

I did go through a period where I was drinking excessively (everyday) but I eventually came to my senses after I got a DUI and had to go to an AA meeting. After hearing these people say how helpless they were and calling themselves losers I decided I just needed to make a conscious effort to stop what I was doing and to quit being selfish.

Sounds like you needed Jack Trimpey and rational recovery. Twelve step programs are not the best place to gauge a disorder or process.

In alcoholism there is only one theing that you are helpless over,:
If you drink, you will drink more.
The solution, don't drink.

I still drink every now and then but I don't go to the excesses that I used to. Thanks for bringing up a good point.

It may be you fall to closer to abuse than dependance. i have know some alcoholics to drink safely but just that one.After three yers on not drinking, he drank one, said "I don't like it." and didn't drink anymore.

dependence usually involves behaviors of high self destruction.

besides tolerance and withdrawl you have

(3) alcohol is often used in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended

(4) there is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control alcohol use

(5) a great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain alcohol, use alcohol, or recover from its effects

(6) important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of alcohol use

(7) alcohol use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by alcohol (e.g. continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption)

And to qualify each of those is major like:
-buys a case to last a week, and drinks it in one night. Every time.
-tries quitting, hiding the bottle and moderation, multiple times. unsucessfully
-the time spent drinking removes the person from any other activities
-the person looses their job because of their use, relationships, gives up favored past times, to drink or because of drinking
-like being arrested for DUI, get suspended for DUI, getting revoked for DUI, getting prison for DUI under revocation

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I read something a while back that talked about the perceptual body distortion as being more to do with being in a state of semi-starvation than to do with anorexia per se. Is there research to back this up (or that contradicts it)? I have a feeling it was to do with an experiment which exposed healthy men to a semi-starvation state, and they acquired some of the symptoms of anorexia. Sorry my memory is hazy, but does anyone know anything about this?

 

[Dancing David]

I can't prove that there isn't an omnipotent god but it is up to the believer to prove that there is.

Nope you made the claim first, Sceptics of Queensberry rules, your claim that it is not biological and driven by self pity and that is your is your burden of proof.

but I don't have a good reason to believe it for a few reasons: its not like testing for cancer or schizophrenia, people say "its a disease" seemingly as an excuse to not own up to their own actions (similar to the way alcoholics and addicts do), the pity factor with which sufferers seem to love, and the fact that you are not born with it or that you are consciously hurting yourself for selfish reasons (again the same way alcoholics, addicts and even cutters do).

Your burden.

Standard JREF stuff.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

And the fact that the climber can quit any time he wants, while an anorectic has to spend months or years digging herself out of her situation doesn't mean anything to you? Neither disorders nor alcoholism or drug addiction are a simple matter of "just quitting", and anyone who says otherwise is, quite frankly, deluding himself. I have plenty friends with mental problems and I volunteer at a street magazine publishing house. I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

With regards to the responsibility argument, that seems to make some sense until you realise that the treatment for many of these disorders involves taking control and responsibility. So admittig you have one of these disorders and seeking treatment is the opposite of abdicating responsibility.

 

[Epok]

Pony up dude, where is your evidence?

I worked in mental health until three years ago, and in fact i was doing ER screens for psych admissions.

So data, evidence, what test? Is it a dopamine spill test or what?

You came in with a chip on your shoulder, how much research have you done to inform your stigmatizing opinion?

Hmmm, did you read the PubMed links?

No excuse for the statements you made about anorexics or people whos elf mutilate. there are some who do it for attention and those who don't.
If you start rude you get rude.
Where is your evidence that it is not a biological process in part?

Hmm, debating a friend and just making stuff up?

And what is the co-morbidity of bipolar disorder and alcoholism. Hmmm?

From what I know there is no cure for schizophrenia and not once in my OP did I insult anyone for having schizophrenia (and for that matter cancer or diabetes).

You use the same debate tactics and styles to defame those with anorexia nervosa, claim it to be the product of self pity and present no evidence? Same stuff i used to hear from people about schizophrenia?

"the pity factor with which sufferers seem to love, and the fact that you are not born with it or that you are consciously hurting yourself for selfish reasons"

So you want me to treat you better than you do people living with a condition you are lacking knowledge of. Sure.


I did, you just avoided it, there is lots of data which suggests a biological basis as part of the process, you have prersented any period.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I an come with more, that was from a minute look at PubMed, so what have you got?

The only think I could tell from the PubMed links is that there is not enough data to be conclusive but it does show that it needs to be looked into. The first link stated a likelyhood that there is a connection. The second link showed some promise but still not conclusive. And I honestly don't know what they mean by difference in grey matter in the third link because it doesn't say if its more or less.

I may come across as rude in my OP. I was stating my opinion and asking for feedback. You really aren't giving me a good reason to see otherwise. You bounce like a pinball in most of your post so its hard to tell where to start. That makes me seriously doubt your professionalism. And as for the co-morbidity rate of bi-polar and alcoholics, not all people who suffer from bi-polar disorder are alcoholics. The ones who become alcoholics are people who are doing it wrong. They can't use their disorder as an excuse.

Sorry I have to keep my replies relatively short, I have a baby bobcat to feed.