Is Amway A Scam?

[marplots]

Are we part of the "social media engagement?"

 

[Wowbagger]

Amway does not seem to be a reliable system for generating income for most people. Yes, some people can make money off of it. But, clearly not most people.

I think the "scam" description can to fit Amway because they fail to clearly disclose that. They make no effort in vetting the "right people", and instead cast a wide net, hoping a few stick.

They don't say things like "If you have XYZ personality traits, and can work ZYX number of hours on this system, then YOU can probably make money." They seem to imply that anyone, or almost anyone, can do it!


Amway could, for all I know, be a perfectly legal, legitimate, and successful corporation.

But, the word "scam" can still apply as long as they remain seemingly disingenuous at just who could and should apply for this type of system.

 

[icerat]

Are we part of the "social media engagement?"

oh good grief. I normally don't see joecool'sposts, he's on my ignore list, but I had to see what you are responding too.

Joecool knows the story behind that, and knows that post is full of lies, but he continues to post it. Years ago I considered starting a reputation management business as an addition to another business I already had offering internet services. I never proceeded with it. I am not paid by Amway and, as Joecool knows, Amway themselves have explicitly stated this after being asked on one of their blogs. If I was paid to endorse Amway it would be a violation of both EU and US law for me not to disclose it.

The interesting thing is that Joecool runs multiple anti-Amway blogs, averaging nearly a blog post a day, makes anti-amway comments all around the net (including starting this thread), has been caught starting fake blogs and making fake comments pretending to be an Amway business owner .... and only very rarely posts any of this outside of business hours.

Look at this thread. He starts it up and gets it running, then leaves it be until it dies down - then posts on it again and again to get it moving again.

Let's not forgot - Amway internet critics have been caught working with Amway competitors before.

Yet he tries to claim *I* am the paid shill?

Right.

 

[icerat]

Amway does not seem to be a reliable system for generating income for most people. Yes, some people can make money off of it. But, clearly not most people.

I think the "scam" description can to fit Amway because they fail to clearly disclose that. They make no effort in vetting the "right people", and instead cast a wide net, hoping a few stick.

They don't say things like "If you have XYZ personality traits, and can work ZYX number of hours on this system, then YOU can probably make money." They seem to imply that anyone, or almost anyone, can do it!

That's because that's the experience.

There's been unemployed, uneducated people, deaf people, blind people, people in wheelchairs, home mothers, PhDs, Corporate Executives, top athletes, fat people, accountants, people with no people skills, and top sales people, young people and old people .... every type of person you can imagine has succeeded in Amway. This has been well documented in the various books that have been written about Amway.

Amway could, for all I know, be a perfectly legal, legitimate, and successful corporation.

But, the word "scam" can still apply as long as they remain seemingly disingenuous at just who could and should apply for this type of system.

Please, offer your insight. After 53 years of operating in 100+ territories Amway has been unable to discover a common thread between those that succeed - and uncovered plenty of evidence what's required to succeed are skills that can be learned.

Having said that, no, it's not for everyone, but don't you think it's the individuals right to decide if they want to give it a go and find out? They're given plenty of time to dip their feet in the water at little or no financial risk. If they decide the business is not for them, no problem, they resign their membership and get their money back (including on any products, even used), or alternatively - as many chose to do - they can keep their membership and continue to purchase any products they like, and give it another go later if they want.

As Justice Norris said in BERR vs Amway UK - it's an opportunity, not a guarantee

 

[icerat]

There might be a description missing in their synonym list for IBO - viable business.

In 2012, 18982 new distributorships reached the level of "platinum" for the first time. In most countries that's usually the equivalent of at least full-time income, from a part-time business.

Clearly plenty of people find it a viable business.

As I asked earlier - what is the antagonism towards letting people try something?

 

[AdMan]

oh good grief. I normally don't see joecool'sposts, he's on my ignore list, but I had to see what you are responding too.

Joecool knows the story behind that, and knows that post is full of lies, but he continues to post it. Years ago I considered starting a reputation management business as an addition to another business I already had offering internet services. I never proceeded with it. I am not paid by Amway and, as Joecool knows, Amway themselves have explicitly stated this after being asked on one of their blogs. If I was paid to endorse Amway it would be a violation of both EU and US law for me not to disclose it.

The interesting thing is that Joecool runs multiple anti-Amway blogs, averaging nearly a blog post a day, makes anti-amway comments all around the net (including starting this thread), has been caught starting fake blogs and making fake comments pretending to be an Amway business owner .... and only very rarely posts any of this outside of business hours.

Look at this thread. He starts it up and gets it running, then leaves it be until it dies down - then posts on it again and again to get it moving again.

Let's not forgot - Amway internet critics have been caught working with Amway competitors before.

Yet he tries to claim *I* am the paid shill?

Right.

How many hours a month do you spend defending Amway?

Seems like a lot, even just on this one forum.

Weird.

To be honest, all your posts just make me even more wary of it.

 

[icerat]

How many hours a month do you spend defending Amway?

A lot, lot, lot less than Joecool spends attacking it.

Seems like a lot, even just on this one forum.

I'm a speed reader and speed typer, a bookcase and skydrive folder full of research on MLMs, and can pretty much just cut and paste the same responses to the same long-discredited myths in my sleep. Doesn't take long at all.

Weird.

Why? If I have expertise in a topic and I see people sprouting BS, should I just ignore it?

My most active other thread on JREF is defending Microsoft from what I perceive to be unfair attacks.

Honest question - why do you think my behaviour is "weird" but don't appear to question Joecool's, who clearly spends A LOT more time attacking Amway than I do defending it.

To be honest, all your posts just make me even more wary of it.

You may want to meditate on that process. I post links and independent evidence debunking hearsay claims - and that makes you more likely to believe the hearsay.

It's a well known phenomenon. Deeply held beliefs that are challenged often become more strongly held.

Oh wait ... I know that, yet still challenge people on this forum! But ChrisBFRPKY says I'm trying to recruit people! And others of you apparently think I'm a paid shill!

One would think I would have been fired by now ....

You regularly see the same thing on the homeopathy threads, with defenders claiming attackers are working for "big pharma" etc.

For the record, I don't think Joecool is paid to attack Amway. I think he's possibly OCD and stealing his employers time pursuing the focus of his unhealthy obsession.

 

[AdMan]

For the record, I don't think Joecool is paid to attack Amway. I think he's possibly OCD and stealing his employers time pursuing the focus of his unhealthy obsession.

And speaking of unhealthy obsessions, I think there's some projection going on there...

 

[AdMan]

A lot, lot, lot less than Joecool spends attacking it.

Who asked about joecool? I was wondering about your own obsession with Amway.

 

[icerat]

And speaking of unhealthy obsessions, I think there's some projection going on there...

It's unhealthy to call out BS on the internet?

Yeah, you're probably right ....

Nevertheless the amount of time I spend "defending" Multilevel marketing does not approach that have anti-mlm critics like Joecool, Robert FitzPatrick, Jon Taylor, Cheryl Rhodes et.al.

Who asked about joecool? I was wondering about your own obsession with Amway.

You consider a few posts on a JREF forum an "obsession"? You might want to check out the Amanda Knox thread!

I have an experience, interest, and expertise in a topic. I make money out of that experience, interest, and expertise (googleads on my sites). I'm looking at publishing at least 2 books in the area, and have some academic papers in mind as well.

I'd spend at most a few hours a week on it. I don't think that quite fits the definition of "obession".

But again I ask - why accuse me of "obession" but not the thread starter? Indeed, while I seem to be challenged on this occasionally, I've never once seen any anti-mlmers query Joecool. Confirmation bias is well in play.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Then how did I profit without recruiting anyone? Magic pixie dust?

Not as eloquent.

So you mean the first time you were in Amway, and not the time after the first time when you recruited people for a downline.

OK, let me try to ask in a way that should get straight forward answers if you'll be honest as one should be.

Did you have another source of income during this first time before recruiting anyone?

Were you able to make enough income from Amway monies received alone to support and keep a normal average USA family household located within the USA without an additional source of income being required to keep the household in food, utilities, house payment or rent etc?

Have you ever started or are you currently affiliated with or do you currently own any interests in a reputation protection company of any type or form?

Added:I like that picture BTW.

 

[icerat]

Not as eloquent.

So you mean the first time you were in Amway, and not the time after the first time when you recruited people for a downline.

I was profitable both times. First time I did no recruiting, just retailing. Second time I did both,

OK, let me try to ask in a way that should get straight forward answers if you'll be honest as one should be.

Did you have another source of income during this first time before recruiting anyone?

Yes, it's designed to be started part-time. Not sure the point of the question?

Were you able to make enough income from Amway monies received alone to support and keep a normal average USA family household located within the USA without an additional source of income being required to keep the household in food, utilities, house payment or rent etc?

Nope. I wasn't trying to. Not sure the point of the question?

Have you ever started or are you currently affiliated with or do you currently own any interests in a reputation protection company of any type or form?

Nope. I get the point of that question.

 

[ChrisBFRPKY]

Thank you

 

[marplots]

In 2012, 18982 new distributorships reached the level of "platinum" for the first time. In most countries that's usually the equivalent of at least full-time income, from a part-time business.

Clearly plenty of people find it a viable business.

As I asked earlier - what is the antagonism towards letting people try something?

But wouldn't that depend on whether they were selling at a profit or buying at a discount for their own use? I think you can see why this might be a problem in the stats if it is at all a common practice.

The antagonism is toward tricking people under false pretenses. It is no different than a negative reaction to any con or swindle. If, on the other hand, people who sign up are given full information and not misled, then how could I complain?

My personal experience with Amway representatives was minimal. It did involve false characterizations. In your stat above, you do much the same. You mention how many reached a certain level, but left out how many did not. This is a mischaracterization by omission, isn't it?

If I tell you that you should start playing basketball because I have made millions in the NBA, would you think I was offering you an opportunity or misrepresenting reality? What if I were selling basketballs?

There is very much an opportunity to fib a bit, because of the asymmetry of information. I think you have mentioned that the "independent" part of the IBO acronym means Amway cannot police this. Furthermore, there is an incentive to shade the facts because of the downline structure.

Let's say this was happening, hypothetically. What might be the result? One result would be a high turnover as people realized what was going on. What's the stat for that?

(Note that "high turnover" doesn't have to mean people leaving Amway outright. Someone who becomes inactive would count as well.)

 

[Wowbagger]

There's been unemployed, uneducated people, deaf people, blind people, people in wheelchairs, home mothers, PhDs, Corporate Executives, top athletes, fat people, accountants, people with no people skills, and top sales people, young people and old people .... every type of person you can imagine has succeeded in Amway.

But, in point of fact: MOST of the folks who get into it do NOT succeed.

(And your list of "types of people" contains largely irrelevant, superficial factors. But, I'll let that slide.)

After 53 years of operating in 100+ territories Amway has been unable to discover a common thread between those that succeed

If Amway was a legit business they would have figured that out, by now! Don't you think?!

what's required to succeed are skills that can be learned.

Many of those skills are practically useless for anything other than selling Amway. And, it seems MOST people either can't learn them, or can't execute what they've learned.

So, maybe Amway should step up their efforts to figure out why.

Having said that, no, it's not for everyone,

Have you ever heard a recruiter say "Hmmm... I don't think Amway is for you."? I suspect most recruiters will TAKE ALL the downline reps they can!

but don't you think it's the individuals right to decide if they want to give it a go and find out?

Amway is trying to sell itself as something anyone can succeed in.

The facts show that NOT anyone can succeed in it.

Sure, people have the right to try it if they want. People also have the right buy stocks on margin and play roulette wheels. People can choose to throw their time and money at all sorts of stupid risks.

I don't think Amway is conveying the risks of their system adequately.

I am accusing Amway of being disingenuous with its sales pitch. And they seem to take no responsibility failures, nor are they trying to reduce failure rates by aiming for "better quality" people and practices.


There are probably a few different reasons why Amway can be called a "scam". The one reason I am picking on seems to be one reason you can't defend, except via linguistic gymnastics:

You can't sweep a scam under a rug by calling it an "opportunity". Bernie Madoff's company was also an "opportunity" and not a guarantee.

 

[Joecool]

In 2012, 18982 new distributorships reached the level of "platinum" for the first time. In most countries that's usually the equivalent of at least full-time income, from a part-time business.

Clearly plenty of people find it a viable business.

As I asked earlier - what is the antagonism towards letting people try something?

Tall tales. Some studies and testimonies from former platinums have indicated that it's very possible to be a platinum and have a net loss. Also, all those new platinums may have replaced former platinums who no loner qualify. Amway's policy is "once a platinum, always a platinum".

Cindy Droog, an Amway corporate blogger has said that there is now way that they can confirm that people are earning "full time incomes" from Amway as they don't know what operating expenses an IBO has and as such, people should not be making such claims.

 

[Joecool]

Joecool knows the story behind that, and knows that post is full of lies, but he continues to post it. Years ago I considered starting a reputation management business as an addition to another business I already had offering internet services. I never proceeded with it. I am not paid by Amway and, as Joecool knows, Amway themselves have explicitly stated this after being asked on one of their blogs. If I was paid to endorse Amway it would be a violation of both EU and US law for me not to disclose it.

How would an Amway corporate blogger know if you were on the payroll or not?

And since you bring it up, I'm also a speed reader and the articles on my blog have been reprint for the last two years. How long do you think it takes to copy and paste a new article a few times per week?

You're the one who has google alerts set up so you know exactly when someone posts something about Amway on the internet. It's sort of your "bat signal".

Frankly, I think you're obsessed with me along with Amway. How much time do you spend monitoring my internet activity? You must have spent hours and hours to incorrectly identify my identity. I believe it's called cyber stalking and cyber bullying. Did you mention that an Amway corporate blogger called you a cyber bully for stalking me online?

You're rather creepy now that I think about it.

 

[dudalb]

AMway toothpaste is 10 to 12 dollars for a travel size tube???????

Wow, if you needed any more proof that Amway is a scam.....

 

[marplots]

AMway toothpaste is 10 to 12 dollars for a travel size tube???????

Wow, if you needed any more proof that Amway is a scam.....

I think the link showed it was for a half-dozen tubes, not just one.

 

[Joecool]

AMway toothpaste is 10 to 12 dollars for a travel size tube???????

Wow, if you needed any more proof that Amway is a scam.....

Amway's shill at work:

Originally Posted by Icerat AKA IBOFightBack
Amway WAYYYYYY Cheaper

And that's before any discounts, nor the fact that recommended usage is probably lower. I can't find usage info for A&H , but Glister even has a smaller hole so that it virtually forces you to use less. Then of course there's the issue of comparing product quality etc, but clearly Amway is more than competitive.