Is Amway A Scam?

[icerat]

But, in point of fact: MOST of the folks who get into it do NOT succeed.

Evidence?

Many of those skills are practically useless for anything other than selling Amway.

What skills are you talking about? The skills I learned building an Amway business I've found useful in many areas of my personal and business life. Others claim similar experiences.

And, it seems MOST people either can't learn them, or can't execute what they've learned.

Evidence?

Have you ever heard a recruiter say "Hmmm... I don't think Amway is for you."? I suspect most recruiters will TAKE ALL the downline reps they can!

While I think that's untrue and there's inefficiencies in that approach - so what? What's the problem with allowing people to give it a go?

The facts show that NOT anyone can succeed in it.

Evidence?

I don't think Amway is conveying the risks of their system adequately.

What are the risks they are not conveying?

I am accusing Amway of being disingenuous with its sales pitch. And they seem to take no responsibility failures, nor are they trying to reduce failure rates by aiming for "better quality" people and practices.

(1) In my experience the "failure rate" is very low. In fact I've never met anyone who actually did what was recommended to do who hasn't succeeded. They probably exist, but I haven't encountered them. I suspect the problem is that you think some guy who is in Amway primarily to buy Amway products, and successfully does so, is for some reason an "Amway failure". How do you define "failure" for people who register with Amway?

(2) You don't think significantly increased sanctions for engaging in bad practices and significantly increasing available (free) training is "not trying to reduce failure rates"?

You can't sweep a scam under a rug by calling it an "opportunity". Bernie Madoff's company was also an "opportunity" and not a guarantee.

It wasn't my words. I was quoting a Judge of the High Court of the United Kingdom, after he'd spent more than a year studying the business model.

Care to explain how much time you've spent and evidence you've gone over to come to a conclusion contrary to his? And contrary to the three judges on the appeals panel?

 

[marplots]

(snipped some to ask a question about this)

(1) In my experience the "failure rate" is very low. In fact I've never met anyone who actually did what was recommended to do who hasn't succeeded.

Why aren't they doing what is recommended to do and becoming successful? What is it they cannot or will not do? Why didn't they know about this before they signed up?

 

[Wowbagger]

Evidence?

This page YOU linked to:
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/amway-success-what-are-your-odds/

It doesn't show very favorable "odds", at all, to me!

It looks like MOST people who form IBOs do not succeed, even from the evidence YOU provided.

 

[gnome]

Well you recognized incorrectly. While what your family member said was in violation of Amway's rules, it was not something required to make them not a Ponzi scheme.

What you're probably referring to is allegations of being a pyramid scheme, which is different to a ponzi scheme. What's necessary not to be a "product based pyramid scheme" is legitimate products. Retail customer sales are not required to have a legitimate market for legitimate products, but a significant amount of it provides strong evidence you have legitimate product and market.

I think I did use the wrong term. But what to call it is quite secondary to the point that such a practice is bad news.

 

[Joecool]

Why aren't they doing what is recommended to do and becoming successful? What is it they cannot or will not do? Why didn't they know about this before they signed up?

The system is flawed and designed for the vast majority to fail. A platinum group is often 100 IBO's or more. But there's one platinum and a bunch that aren't. System expenses can eat up all or most of a platinum's income.

Why aren't people doing what is recommended to be successful? I would reply that "anyone" can win the lottery. All they need to do is select the correct winning numbers. While Amway is not necessarily a game of chance, the ultimate results are comparable to playing a lottery.

 

[tyr_13]

This page YOU linked to:
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/amway-success-what-are-your-odds/

It doesn't show very favorable "odds", at all, to me!

It looks like MOST people who form IBOs do not succeed, even from the evidence YOU provided.

I posit that the tendency is that those who do succeed do so from not being adverse to scamming. Guilting family and friends into overpriced stuff that they don't really want, lying to people (which Amway itself can claim they disavow) about the products, targeting elderly, and lying to down stream network people who buy items they hope to sell but never either sell or consume.

The 'right skills' for being successful with Amway might very well be scamming skills.

 

[Wowbagger]

The 'right skills' for being successful with Amway might very well be scamming skills.

I was trying to avoid saying that, just yet.

 

[icerat]

Why aren't they doing what is recommended to do and becoming successful? What is it they cannot or will not do?

First of all, how are you defining successful?

If someone joins up primarily to buy products at the wholesale price, and they do so - are they a success or a failure? MLM critics claim they are failures, even though they achieved what they set out to do.

If someone signs up primarily to check out the business opportunity to see if it is for them, and they decide it isn't - are they a success or a failure? MLM critics claim they are failures, even though they achieved what they set out to do.

If someone signs up primarily to make a couple of hundred of bucks a week, and do so - are they a success or a failure? MLM critics claim they are failures, even though they achieved what they set out to do.

Why didn't they know about this before they signed up?

Why do you think they didn't? Did you forget this post? People are given heaps of information up front, and then between 90 and 180 days to check it all out as thoroughly as they want and get a full refund if they choose.

 

[icerat]

This page YOU linked to:
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/amway-success-what-are-your-odds/

It doesn't show very favorable "odds", at all, to me!

Approaching 100% odds of making significant income by doing a few steps isn't favourable?

It looks like MOST people who form IBOs do not succeed, even from the evidence YOU provided.

Assuming by "success" you mean make a large profit, most IBOs do not try, most don't even have it as a goal they work towards.

I posit that the tendency is that those who do succeed do so from not being adverse to scamming. Guilting family and friends into overpriced stuff that they don't really want, lying to people (which Amway itself can claim they disavow) about the products, targeting elderly, and lying to down stream network people who buy items they hope to sell but never either sell or consume.

The University of Westminster study I linked to earlier provides pretty clear evidence that few "family and friends" feel like they've been "guilted" in to anything.

Can you provide evidence to counter the University of Westminster research?

Your claims of inventory loading are serious. The FTC spent years investigating it and found no evidence it was true.

Can you provide evidence to counter the FTC findings?

The results of the Quixtar class action settlement provide pretty clear evidence that very few IBOs feel they were misled or scammed or lost money.

Can you provide evidence to counter the settlement outcome?

Overall I find Amway products good value.

Which products have you tried that you don't think are good value?

I think I did use the wrong term. But what to call it is quite secondary to the point that such a practice is bad news.

Agreed.

 

[marplots]

First of all, how are you defining successful?

In a non-controversial manner. A business is a success when it generates enough profit to be self-sustaining. I believe the acronym stands for "Independent Business Owner."

If someone joins up primarily to buy products at the wholesale price, and they do so - are they a success or a failure? MLM critics claim they are failures, even though they achieved what they set out to do.

If someone signs up primarily to check out the business opportunity to see if it is for them, and they decide it isn't - are they a success or a failure? MLM critics claim they are failures, even though they achieved what they set out to do.

If someone signs up primarily to make a couple of hundred of bucks a week, and do so - are they a success or a failure? MLM critics claim they are failures, even though they achieved what they set out to do.

Indeed, if they sign up for those reasons and get what they expect, they cannot be deemed to have been scammed. But, neither can they be said to be successful in a business sense.

Is it your stance that Amway is not a business opportunity at all and is not promoted as such? I note that the main splash at www.amway.com has the bold heading: "We are our own bosses." Does this suggest a buying club to you?

As far as signing up and making a couple hundred bucks a week, is that gross or net? If it's net, and represents a profit, then it would be counted as a success. But from what I've read, this is not the common experience and, worse, we cannot tell if this is so from sales records, since the IBO may be consuming the products themselves.

 

[icerat]

In a non-controversial manner. A business is a success when it generates enough profit to be self-sustaining. I believe the acronym stands for "Independent Business Owner."

I asked this before but don't think I got a reply - you think Amway's nomenclature is what defines whether someone is in business or not. It's not the individuals goals, nor their activity, nor something small like laws?

Indeed, if they sign up for those reasons and get what they expect, they cannot be deemed to have been scammed. But, neither can they be said to be successful in a business sense.

They probably weren't successful in winning an Olympic Gold Medal either. So what?

Is it your stance that Amway is not a business opportunity at all and is not promoted as such?

Oh come on, you're smarter than that. And so am I.

As far as signing up and making a couple hundred bucks a week, is that gross or net? If it's net, and represents a profit, then it would be counted as a success.

What if you'd set a goal to make $1000 a week, and only made $200? Success or failure?

The point is that neither your nor I have the right, nor information, to decide what other people consider success or failure in their endeavours.

 

[Wowbagger]

I am also curious as to why Amway business are called "Independent" Businesses. They seem very.... dependent... to me. Any thoughts?

Approaching 100% odds of making significant income by doing a few steps isn't favourable?

Your document shows that only 50% of IBOs work towards the goal of making money.

Of the 50% that do, a smaller percentage actually do so.

That means MOST do not.

Claiming that this is "approaching 100%" sounds like a severe case of cherry-picking.

Oh, sure: If you ONLY count the success stories, then 100% of the success stories are successful! Brilliant!


_______________________________________________

I have an idea: Let's Start over a bit:

So far, I have only seen Amway taking a defensive stance against critiques. I would like to see how Amway can sell itself on its own merits, away from all of that. So...

Pretend that I am aiming to be an entrepreneur (which actually isn't far from fact), and I would like to know how joining Amway would be better for me, than starting a new business in a conventional manner, that does not involve them?

What are the pros and cons (if you have any) of doing that? Assume I know nothing about Amway for this exercise.

Sell the Amway way!

 

[marplots]

The point is that neither your nor I have the right, nor information, to decide what other people consider success or failure in their endeavours.

Do we have the right to point out they are being scammed?

For example, your logic would say that people who visit a psychic and come away believing they've contacted their dead relative should be free to do so - and maybe they should. But shouldn't I also be free to point out what's really going on?

So too, if there's a bait and switch, where a business opportunity is offered and a buying opportunity replaces that, I'd be remiss if I didn't point it out. If Amway is a business opportunity and "business" isn't the result, I'm afraid the word "opportunity" is being misused here. And that's the essence of what a scam is.

And by the way, it isn't the person who is a success or failure, it's Amway who fails them.

I'd like to tap into your expertise here though. Is there an authentic presentation available online we can view and discuss? Somewhere we can see the current version of the circles? That should tell us what claims are being made and whether they are false, largely false, or true.

 

[NewtonTrino]

For those of you arguing with Icerat just remember that he will never give a single inch. He's a true believer that will distort reality in his mind to make amway the greatest thing since sliced bread. Which is hilarious because he's never had any success running any amway business and has simply bought into the hype. You are basically arguing with one of the marks. You would get further going down to your local scientology center and trying to convert them back to reason.

As someone that has been around "the business" my entire life it's definitely one of the biggest, if not the biggest, scams in history. I've personally witnessed countless people try and fail to make a buck while watching the guys at the top of the pyramid rake in huge profits form conventions, tapes etc.

Icerat has a particular strategy of trying to separate or silo the different parts of amyway to protect the overall scam. For example if you ask where the tool profits go he will say they go to another company. It's always about deflecting blame and nary an inch will be given.

Anyone with half a brain can see the scam here. You are trying to teach a horse to sing

 

[icerat]

I am also curious as to why Amway business are called "Independent" Businesses. They seem very.... dependent... to me. Any thoughts?

Not sure what you mean by "dependent". They choose when and where to work, how much, with whom, what products to market, and how - or to do none of the above. They're certainly less "dependent" say than say, independent McDonald's franchisees.

In any case, it's just a name, not even used in many parts of the world. Personally I think it smacks of desperation when critics try to claim people are building businesses purely because of Amway's nomenclature. Especially when they seem to think Amway is a dishonest company and lies about everything else!

Your document shows that only 50% of IBOs work towards the goal of making money.

No, it shows that at best 50% do anything at all, let alone "work towards the goal"

My experience, confirmed by people with groups that include millions, and supported by data revealed in several court cases, indicates that less than 10% engage in "business building" for even a short period of time, and less than 1% do so for the kind of consistent period of time necessary to build a significant income.

Of the 50% that do, a smaller percentage actually do so.

That means MOST do not.

Do you believe MLMers should make money for doing little or no work?

Claiming that this is "approaching 100%" sounds like a severe case of cherry-picking.

Yup, guilty - I cherry-picked people who actually operated an Amway business rather than just those who just had the right to but had elected not to. Who else would you suggest I look at?

Again - Do you believe MLMers should make money for doing little or no work?

Sounds like you're disappointed it isn't some kind of "get rich quick" scheme.

I have an idea: Let's Start over a bit:

Pretend that I am aiming to be an entrepreneur (which actually isn't far from fact), and I would like to know how joining Amway would be better for me, than starting a new business in a conventional manner, that does not involve them?

What are the pros and cons (if you have any) of doing that? Assume I know nothing about Amway for this exercise.

Sell the Amway way!

To which, if it was a sincere request, I'd say it's not simple to cover over the internet. I think it's crucial to be able to meet people who've been successful at it and ask them questions and listen to their experiences, and to be able to use and try the products.

But for the sake of the argument I'll give you a few dot points, with the organization I affiliate with -

Pros -

• low cost, you can get started for as little as $50 (or less), refundable. A greater investment in products and training is generally recommended depending on your goals.
• low risk, with a money back satisfaction guarantee on registration and products for up to 6 months
• high quality exclusive products, some of the best and most popular in their class
• world-class R&D, with over 900 R&D scientists, 65 labs worldwide, and nearly 2000 patents and patent pending, new products are continually being developed and released
• world-class logistical support, with more than 20,000 support staff and warehouses around the world
• world-class high availability IT support, including websites and mobile apps
• optional, free, web-based training developed in conjunction with recognized experts
• optional, paid, world-class business development support, offering low cost training and support available in more than 20 languages. Again, satisfaction guaranteed or your money back
• (relatively) easy access to over 100 international markets

all for about $50/yr (actual figure depends on your market)

Cons -

• there's widespread misinformation about the business model (exhibit A: this thread), which makes it harder than it would otherwise be
• the reputation of the brands you market are affected by other people's actions
• contractual obligations can be limiting in a variety of ways
• it involves working with people a lot, and people can be a pain in the ass!

Do we have the right to point out they are being scammed?

For example, your logic would say that people who visit a psychic and come away believing they've contacted their dead relative should be free to do so - and maybe they should. But shouldn't I also be free to point out what's really going on?

Sure, but at present your pointing out what you think is going on, and expert independent reviews says you're wrong.

So too, if there's a bait and switch, where a business opportunity is offered and a buying opportunity replaces that, I'd be remiss if I didn't point it out.

Every amway presentation I've ever seen, or done, offers a variety of alternatives, such as being a retail customer, a wholesale price customer, or any level of business building.

You're idea that people are only sold on one particular thing is a straw man.

And by the way, it isn't the person who is a success or failure, it's Amway who fails them.

I joined a karate club. They told me what I'd need to do to get a black belt. I didn't do it. I didn't get a black belt.

They failed me!

Really? That's what you believe?

I'd like to tap into your expertise here though. Is there an authentic presentation available online we can view and discuss? Somewhere we can see the current version of the circles? That should tell us what claims are being made and whether they are false, largely false, or true.

It would only tell if the are false, largely false, or true for that presentation. There is no "single" presentation.

Amway Australia has done some youtube presentations with "Zac", a stick figure, that are on their youtube channel. There's a series of them, available in multiple languages.

Amway Europe also has some videos on their media site but they don't go in to a lot of details

Various BSM companies have produced their own materials, it's a contract violation to post them publicly. There's some out there (usually outdated) if you look around.

 

[marplots]

My experience, confirmed by people with groups that include millions, and supported by data revealed in several court cases, indicates that less than 10% engage in "business building" for even a short period of time, and less than 1% do so for the kind of consistent period of time necessary to build a significant income.

Is this how Amway is presented? I would recall to you the splash on their website that declares, "We are our own bosses." Did they really mean to say, "1% of us are our own bosses?"

Do you believe MLMers should make money for doing little or no work?

Do you believe they should make no money for doing a lot of work?

Again - Do you believe MLMers should make money for doing little or no work?

Do you think they should be misled into thinking that might be the case?

Sounds like you're disappointed it isn't some kind of "get rich quick" scheme.

I don't even think it's a get rich slow scheme. It may be a get poor slow scheme though.

To which, if it was a sincere request, I'd say it's not simple to cover over the internet. I think it's crucial to be able to meet people who've been successful at it and ask them questions and listen to their experiences, and to be able to use and try the products.

Wouldn't it be just as important to meet people who have failed at it and discuss it with them?

Sure, but at present your pointing out what you think is going on, and expert independent reviews says you're wrong.

That's true. My opinions are mine. But that makes me wonder who's opinions you adopt if not your own?

Every amway presentation I've ever seen, or done, offers a variety of alternatives, such as being a retail customer, a wholesale price customer, or any level of business building.

You're idea that people are only sold on one particular thing is a straw man.

Interesting. So the idea of a "business opportunity" and a way to become wealthy is no longer the focus of Amway presentations? Do they still use a "dream book?" Fascinating.

But lets look at what Amway has to show us: http://www.achievemagazine.com/ - that's a link to their magazine. I looked around a bit, but couldn't find anything on being a retail customer or a wholesale price customer. Strangely, based on what you are saying, all the articles seem to be about making money and the people who do. And even stranger than that, the common theme seems to be about having more time to do what they want or spend with their kids. This doesn't sound like what you are describing at all. Should I send them a letter of complaint?

I joined a karate club. They told me what I'd need to do to get a black belt. I didn't do it. I didn't get a black belt.

They failed me!

Really? That's what you believe?

I don't know. Did the club present themselves as an opportunity where anyone, with enough work and by following the recommendations, could become a black belt - when, in truth, only 1% ever made it to that level? Does your path to a black belt depend on recruiting others to do the exercises for you or is it based on your own efforts? Do they count as successes those who never get the belt but only watch from the sidelines, perhaps identifying those folks as getting a great deal on entertainment?

It would only tell if the are false, largely false, or true for that presentation. There is no "single" presentation.

This should disturb you. Along with what you said below:

Various BSM companies have produced their own materials, it's a contract violation to post them publicly. There's some out there (usually outdated) if you look around.

Why does that remind me of other organizations that keep the real deal secret? Oh, I know, I was thinking of that whole Scientology tech bit and copyrighted materials. But with Amway, we have a business opportunity, at least partly based on recruiting a downline. Why is it secret again?

 

[Wowbagger]

Do you believe MLMers should make money for doing little or no work?

What I am concerned about is the fact that Amway doesn't seem to care. They continue to cast a wide net: Anyone and everyone can join their ranks, the more the merrier! And, yet the bulk of them will end up making nothing. And that, in turn, ruins their reputation.

If I were Amway, I would have more scrutiny than that. I would try to make sure everyone who buys into the system has the drive and determination to stick it out as an entrepreneur! Sure, mistakes might still be made: Maybe some of the candidates we picked would end up being lazier than we thought. But, at least we put in the effort! And, the overall success rate would be higher without cherry picking.

(And, that is being charitable. I am assuming, above, that Amway would be sold purely as an entrepreneurial opportunity to sell products. As it stands, with its MLM structure, a lot more of Amway involves selling Amway to more people, rather than products. But, I can forgo those complications to make my point.)

Any company that is going to openly let the masses into it, by appealing to their dreams; with only a small number actually fulfilling those dreams with their system: Reeks of something like a "scam", to me.

That is the point I was making. That is the point you have yet to address directly.

I do NOT expect MLMers to make money with little or no work. I certainly would not expect Amway to be a "get rich quick" scheme. But, I WOULD expect a legitimate business to have more care than they seem to express, over just who is worthy to join their ranks of IBOs!

 

[Wowbagger]

I'd say it's not simple to cover over the internet. I think it's crucial to be able to meet people who've been successful at it and ask them questions and listen to their experiences, and to be able to use and try the products.

If that was all you had to say, I would take that to mean Amway cannot really sell itself on its own merits, then. It would be a complete non-answer coming from you. But, at least you appended that with some bullet points:

Pros -

• low cost, you can get started for as little as $50 (or less), refundable. A greater investment in products and training is generally recommended depending on your goals.
• low risk, with a money back satisfaction guarantee on registration and products for up to 6 months

So, would you agree with this? "Amway is effectively an opportunity for someone to start their own retail product business, without the tremendous overhead usually associated with starting one."

If so, then THAT is really the selling point, I think. That could, potentially, be the very merits I was asking about, that Amway could defend itself on. And, that could be what really differentiates Amway from other types of business opportunities.

However, I also understand that there is more to it than that. I hear there is a whole MLM angle associated with it. Would you be able to justify that particular aspect on its own merits? Why would I, as a retail entrepreneur want to be part of an MLM?

• high quality exclusive products, some of the best and most popular in their class
• world-class R&D, with over 900 R&D scientists, 65 labs worldwide, and nearly 2000 patents and patent pending, new products are continually being developed and released

If these products were so good, why would they need the convoluted system of Amway to sell them?

Also: I could sell products that are just as awesome the traditional way. Yes, it would cost more. But, it still means that the "high quality products" argument is not a very strong or unique selling point.

• world-class logistical support, with more than 20,000 support staff and warehouses around the world
• world-class high availability IT support, including websites and mobile apps
• optional, free, web-based training developed in conjunction with recognized experts
• optional, paid, world-class business development support, offering low cost training and support available in more than 20 languages. Again, satisfaction guaranteed or your money back
• (relatively) easy access to over 100 international markets

These points simply delineate specific details of the first point. It normally costs a TON of money for any business to have this level of logistical support behind them. Amway could be seen as an opportunity to tap into all of that infrastructure for very little cost.

If you agree that is the case, you SHOULD be defending Amway more along those lines. Push forward the positive; and cut out all the wordy, elaborate defensive maneuvers!

(For those of you just joining us, I should stress than I am aiming to be charitable, here.)

Cons -

• there's widespread misinformation about the business model (exhibit A: this thread), which makes it harder than it would otherwise be
• the reputation of the brands you market are affected by other people's actions

Maybe someone should do a better job of selling Amway on its own merits. If the merits are really so good, this problem will take care of itself.

• contractual obligations can be limiting in a variety of ways

This, I think, is a BIG ONE.

If I were serious about considering joining Amway, I would certainly want this bullet point to be delineated into more specific details. What are the key things I am allowed or not allowed to do? As compared to a more conventional retail business.

And, how does the MLM structure fit into those?

• it involves working with people a lot, and people can be a pain in the ass!

This is true for any business.

 

[icerat]

Is this how Amway is presented? I would recall to you the splash on their website that declares, "We are our own bosses." Did they really mean to say, "1% of us are our own bosses?"

Or maybe the "we" refers to the ones treating it as a business.

Do you believe they should make no money for doing a lot of work?

In general no, in my experience that's rare.

What do you think?

Do you think they should be misled into thinking that might be the case?

of course not

I don't even think it's a get rich slow scheme. It may be a get poor slow scheme though.

You really don't care about independent evidence do you?

Wouldn't it be just as important to meet people who have failed at it and discuss it with them?

Just as important? No. It can of course still provide useful insights, but I'd suggest learning what successful people do is more important than learning what unsuccessful people do.

That's true. My opinions are mine. But that makes me wonder who's opinions you adopt if not your own?

Personally, I prefer facts over opinions

Interesting. So the idea of a "business opportunity" and a way to become wealthy is no longer the focus of Amway presentations? Do they still use a "dream book?" Fascinating.

good god you are obstinate. Have you really have zero interest in learning anything? As I have pointed out ad nauseum in this thread there are multitudes of different ways people run Amway businesses. There is no "they".

The second time I saw the business was something like 14 years ago. I was shown a range of different alternatives.

But lets look at what Amway has to show us: http://www.achievemagazine.com/ - that's a link to their magazine. I looked around a bit, but couldn't find anything on being a retail customer or a wholesale price customer. Strangely, based on what you are saying, all the articles seem to be about making money and the people who do. And even stranger than that, the common theme seems to be about having more time to do what they want or spend with their kids. This doesn't sound like what you are describing at all. Should I send them a letter of complaint?[/quote]

So let me see .... you want to complain that an internal magazine designed to celebrate achievers is ... celebrating achievers! You find that strange? Really?

I've got this really weird book called a dictionary - it gives meanings of words! How strange!

I don't know. Did the club present themselves as an opportunity where anyone, with enough work and by following the recommendations, could become a black belt - when, in truth, only 1% ever made it to that level?

Pretty much, yup.

Does your path to a black belt depend on recruiting others to do the exercises for you or is it based on your own efforts?

false dichotomy

Do they count as successes those who never get the belt but only watch from the sidelines, perhaps identifying those folks as getting a great deal on entertainment?

no idea what you're talking about

This should disturb you. Along with what you said below:

Why?

Why does that remind me of other organizations that keep the real deal secret? Oh, I know, I was thinking of that whole Scientology tech bit and copyrighted materials. But with Amway, we have a business opportunity, at least partly based on recruiting a downline. Why is it secret again?

Oh good grief. It's NOT secret. You asked to see a particular presentation. Anyone is invited to go see one at any time. They're even called "open" presentations. There are presentations online, but you need a password to see them. You want to read all the rules and all the compensation details? All available publicly on amway.com.

The business contract does not allow blanket broadband advertising. If they did then it would significantly change the nature of the business model, and they want to make it as level a playing field for people as they can. As you know, it's not just selling products, it's also about offering people a business opportunity. If Rupert Murdoch could register and spend a billion on advertising that would alter this.

ETA: Having said that, I do think they should loosen some of the regulations around this.

 

[marplots]

(snipped a bunch)

good god you are obstinate. Have you really have zero interest in learning anything? As I have pointed out ad nauseum in this thread there are multitudes of different ways people run Amway businesses. There is no "they".

Good enough. How should I describe those who are running scams to distinguish them from those who are not and somehow avoid impugning Amway itself? It sounds like I have been making the error of thinking IBOs are a part of Amway, rather than Amway being a corporation which merely sells stuff to IBOs who may be perpetrating scams.

Would it be proper to say that Amway is ethical, but those who sell Amway products and recruit others to sell the products might very well be con-men?

Is it even possible to deal with Amway directly and avoid any chance of being taken advantage of?