Is Amway A Scam?

Well there's the problem. You have 25 employees and to be a stable platinum* you need 60 to 150 people. That's what stunned me. I have a customer/client base of less than two dozen (room to grow) with one employee (me) and I'm quite happy.

*or vermillion or chartreuse or whatever whacky title it is.

How many corner stores selling FMCG do you think could support one employee with a client base of less than two dozen?

Strictly speaking in terms of direct wholesale and retail customers, a platinum would have between 15 and 30. The network includes other people's customers.
 
what a cliched line. Been listening this for years in seminars, and it is one of the brainwashing techniques. The idea is to tell the IBO that no matter what, if the business is not working, it is your fault.

Cliche or not it's mostly true. You'd agree that the vast majority of people who register with Amway do very little to build a network?

First 4 years, net loss of 7000 per year. Following 4 years got me profits around 30-40k/year (Edit** sorry 30-40 was gross income. 15-20k profit)

What on earth are you doing to spend so much money? Can you outline your expenses?

Sam,
We have been told that Amway now polices it's membership and is running a "clean" operation. Is the group you described still in business? Are they still out there recruiting and selling sales tools?

You've been told by me that their policing things much better and things are much improved. If someone told you there's no problems anywhere it wasn't on this forum, and they are wrong.
 
How many corner stores selling FMCG do you think could support one employee with a client base of less than two dozen?

Good analogy. An Amway network is like a corner store. Maybe not the open to the public part, or the fixed location, established good will, building physical equity parts; or even the "makes money or goes out of business" part. But I think I can make the analogy work if I really try.

I keep forgetting which Amway we are talking about. Is it the "doing this as a hobby" one, or the "buyer's club" version, or the "gonna establish an income stream so I can get rich and retire" one, or the "it's all about the social aspects and the people I meet" one, or the "I'm just learning how to be an entrepreneur" one? (Sorry if I missed a couple.)

ETA: A couple more came to mind: the "I signed up and will be doing nothing" version, and sadly, Sam's version: "I worked it hard for eight years and now understand how vile it is."
 
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Good analogy. An Amway network is like a corner store. Maybe not the open to the public part, or the fixed location, established good will, building physical equity parts; or even the "makes money or goes out of business" part. But I think I can make the analogy work if I really try.

I keep forgetting which Amway we are talking about. Is it the "doing this as a hobby" one, or the "buyer's club" version, or the "gonna establish an income stream so I can get rich and retire" one, or the "it's all about the social aspects and the people I meet" one, or the "I'm just learning how to be an entrepreneur" one? (Sorry if I missed a couple.)

ETA: A couple more came to mind: the "I signed up and will be doing nothing" version, and sadly, Sam's version: "I worked it hard for eight years and now understand how vile it is."

The second last one is the "did some due diligence decided it wasn't for me".

If I felt I had to act unethically to build Amway, I wouldn't do it either. Sam's is not the only report I have out of the organisation he is with, it's seems particularly a problem amongst the Indian population in North America - as well not surprisingly, in India - where the group seems to be getting their growth.
 
The second last one is the "did some due diligence decided it wasn't for me".

If I felt I had to act unethically to build Amway, I wouldn't do it either. Sam's is not the only report I have out of the organisation he is with, it's seems particularly a problem amongst the Indian population in North America - as well not surprisingly, in India - where the group seems to be getting their growth.

I would like to set the animosity aside and ask what you think Amway (the corporation) might do to keep the networks running ethically. Is it even possible while still allowing IBOs to keep the "independent" bit?

I'm asking because the Amway you experience and describe, while not my cup of tea, has informed participants acting ethically. So is it possible to remove the tainted parts and keep the rest? What would Amway have to do?
 
For people who treat it as a business, yes it's the norm.

In my experience, the norm for people who treat it as a business.

The implication being that anyone who doesn't experience that isn't treating it as a business. No true Scotsman fallacy.
 
Cliche or not it's mostly true. You'd agree that the vast majority of people who register with Amway do very little to build a network?


What on earth are you doing to spend so much money? Can you outline your expenses?
I totally agree with this statement. However, the amount of time it has been used and abused, it is not even funny. I have built a successful business, and I was told the same, along with a bunch of other nut statements when I discussed leaving the business

4 Conferences - 1 Conference = (130 ticket, 100 travelling, 50 hotel). Total = 1120
4 Local Business Building Seminars (Ticket = 30) Total = 180

Weekly Open Meeting (Ticket = 5) Total 5x50 = 250

CD and Book program/month (75/month) 75x12 = 900

Products (Roughly 600/month - 200 in sales) 400x12 = 4800

There few other things I am missing. I have kept books, I can go back and check, but hopefully this will give an idea.
 
I would like to set the animosity aside and ask what you think Amway (the corporation) might do to keep the networks running ethically. Is it even possible while still allowing IBOs to keep the "independent" bit?

First of all is actually giving a damn. Amway didn't particularly until one group was having some success, and attracting others to join them, building with a method that Amway's own lawyers said was at risk of being judged a pyramid. Throw in a series of lawsuits and ethical field leaders complaining about the widespread internet "negative" generated by only a relatively small part of Amway, and they finally decided something needed to be done.

This required a significant change of culture, as right from 1959 it's been based around offering people "independence". By definition, more corporate oversight means less independence. Of no small concern is that it can also put "independent contractor" status at risk (Prof Nicole Biggart's book Charismatic Capitalism talks about the history behind this)

With Amway this all coincided with a change of management, with Doug DeVos taking over from Dick DeVos.

Herbalife is going through much the same type of growing pains thanks to Ackman's activism. I disagree with his essential thesis, but he has forced improvements.

I'm asking because the Amway you experience and describe, while not my cup of tea, has informed participants acting ethically. So is it possible to remove the tainted parts and keep the rest? What would Amway have to do?

Amway took a very large step by effectively kicking out nearly a third of their North American business. When Rich DeVos tried to take similar action back in the 1980s it almost killed the company, as the "bad eggs" controlled a very large part of the company. A couple of the major distributor groups effectively blackmailed the corporation, getting their members to withhold all ordering for a couple of months. DeVos had little choice but to back down. Today North America, and these organisations, were a relatively small portion of Amway's global business, so they company could afford to take the hit, and did so. They also linked the very substantial non-contractual bonuses and incentives to changes in behaviour under a program called Accreditation+. You could continue your "independent" ways if you wished, but you'd no longer be eligible for bonuses worth millions.

It has improved things dramatically, but like changing the culture in any organisation it really takes a generational change, so you still have "old style" stuff going on and you'll always have people trying the "quick fix", but far far less than before.

Since implementation of accreditation+ there has been a dramatic decrease in "horror stories" and complaints on the 'net. Still happen occasionally of course, but new reports are really not very common at all today. Indeed all the ones I've tracked the last few years seem to come from just one organisation.

The implication being that anyone who doesn't experience that isn't treating it as a business. No true Scotsman fallacy.

Not implied and doesn't follow, not least because there are plenty of examples of the "true Scotsman"

Products (Roughly 600/month - 200 in sales) 400x12 = 4800

This comes back to what we were talking about before - products bought for personal use are not a business expense. If you feel they are, and you're buying to reach some kind of implied "quota" then you're potentially operating a pyramid scheme.

If you are claiming products purchased for personal use as an expense on your tax declarations, you are breaking the law. Technically they are handled in accounting as a credit.

In our system we teach that to succeed in building a network you need to find at least 25 products you would use personally because you want them. If you can't find 25 you think are good value and would promote to others, then you should look for another business opportunity.
 
This comes back to what we were talking about before - [I said:
products bought for personal use are not a business expense.[/I] If you feel they are, and you're buying to reach some kind of implied "quota" then you're potentially operating a pyramid scheme.

If you are claiming products purchased for personal use as an expense on your tax declarations, you are breaking the law. Technically they are handled in accounting as a credit.

In our system we teach that to succeed in building a network you need to find at least 25 products you would use personally because you want them. If you can't find 25 you think are good value and would promote to others, then you should look for another business opportunity.

Well, I am buying the products, because I am in the business (buy from yourself). It is still a sale for my business, thats my opinion though.
 
Amway took a very large step by effectively kicking out nearly a third of their North American business. When Rich DeVos tried to take similar action back in the 1980s it almost killed the company, as the "bad eggs" controlled a very large part of the company. A couple of the major distributor groups effectively blackmailed the corporation, getting their members to withhold all ordering for a couple of months. DeVos had little choice but to back down. Today North America, and these organisations, were a relatively small portion of Amway's global business, so they company could afford to take the hit, and did so. They also linked the very substantial non-contractual bonuses and incentives to changes in behaviour under a program called Accreditation+. You could continue your "independent" ways if you wished, but you'd no longer be eligible for bonuses worth millions.

It has improved things dramatically, but like changing the culture in any organisation it really takes a generational change, so you still have "old style" stuff going on and you'll always have people trying the "quick fix", but far far less than before.

Since implementation of accreditation+ there has been a dramatic decrease in "horror stories" and complaints on the 'net. Still happen occasionally of course, but new reports are really not very common at all today. Indeed all the ones I've tracked the last few years seem to come from just one organisation.

The fact that you need to keep showing up to say "Amway doesn't do that anymore" and lawsuits such as Pokorny and Blenn suggest you are wrong and indeed the same old things keep happening until some enforcement or authority steps in. If not, Amway is happy with the status quo, unless they are forced to make changes.
 
The fact that you need to keep showing up to say "Amway doesn't do that anymore" and lawsuits such as Pokorny and Blenn suggest you are wrong and indeed the same old things keep happening until some enforcement or authority steps in. If not, Amway is happy with the status quo, unless they are forced to make changes.

I can speak for 2 groups who havent changed anything in the last 8 years. WWDB and BWW
 
I can speak for 2 groups who havent changed anything in the last 8 years. WWDB and BWW
Ah, but neither or those are, technically speaking, Amway. Just like Sea Org isn't, technically speaking, Scientology.

Both arrangements exist to keep the parent org's nose clean. Technically speaking.

[ETA] Actually, that raises an interesting point. Sam, could you think back to all of the crap they had you buy into, the CDs and seminars and such? Where, exactly, did the pressure to buy the crap and promote the more clearly pyramidal aspects of the business (recruiting salesmen instead of recruiting sales) originate? With Amway Amway, or its BWW symbiote?
 
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Ah, but neither or those are, technically speaking, Amway. Just like Sea Org isn't, technically speaking, Scientology.

Both arrangements exist to keep the parent org's nose clean. Technically speaking.

[ETA] Actually, that raises an interesting point. Sam, could you think back to all of the crap they had you buy into, the CDs and seminars and such? Where, exactly, did the pressure to buy the crap and promote the more clearly pyramidal aspects of the business (recruiting salesmen instead of recruiting sales) originate? With Amway Amway, or its BWW symbiote?

I would argue that both these organizations are Amway. I was in BWW, and we always would get 3-4 speakers from Amway. They also used to claim that BWW is the biggest organization in Amway. An organization is just a line of sponsorship. I can start my own motivational organization if I have good enough numbers..

Getting people to buy motivational material is a very strategic process. It starts with telling the new prospect how great this program is, and how it helps people like me (who has no business knowledge prior to starting amway) to get adequate business building knowledge. This creates an importance for CDs and books. Next step includes giving them few CDs and books (around 30 CDs and 4 books) and the new IBO is expected to finish this between 2-3 months. Faster they finish it, better they will become in this business. To give these extra CDs and books, someone has to purchase EXTRA materials so that they are ready to distribute these for free. A core IBO is expected to have a good stock of these CDs and books in his car trunk. 3rd step includes asking the new person what they think about the CDs and books. Did this add any value? Regardless what the answer is, the new person is told again how important these things are (E.g. For CDs, it is like carrying a multi million dollar thought process in your pocket, or in your car. According to my own statistics, 20% of the people sign up for the CD/book program. For the rest 80%, they are told almost every month how these things can help them move forward in the business. I still remember the sales pitch that got me to sign up. My upline Diamond told me this:
"What is the difference between you and me? I am more successful than you are, but what else. Let me tell you, its time and the business education. Time, we cant do anything about. Education however you can get as much as your business requires. The more you educate yourself, more successful you will be. You can even beat me if you get educated enough"
Ultimately, if a person is still not signing up for the cd/book program, they are told that they have a humming team coming up. If you dont use these educaiton materials, guess what, your team wont either as they are looking to duplicate you. Now this is a must, and you should do whatever it takes to buy these. "Invest in neck up". For students, they are told to skip a meal once a week to cover the cost of this program ($75)
 
I would argue that both these organizations are Amway. I was in BWW, and we always would get 3-4 speakers from Amway. They also used to claim that BWW is the biggest organization in Amway. An organization is just a line of sponsorship. I can start my own motivational organization if I have good enough numbers..

Getting people to buy motivational material is a very strategic process. It starts with telling the new prospect how great this program is, and how it helps people like me (who has no business knowledge prior to starting amway) to get adequate business building knowledge. This creates an importance for CDs and books. Next step includes giving them few CDs and books (around 30 CDs and 4 books) and the new IBO is expected to finish this between 2-3 months. Faster they finish it, better they will become in this business. To give these extra CDs and books, someone has to purchase EXTRA materials so that they are ready to distribute these for free. A core IBO is expected to have a good stock of these CDs and books in his car trunk. 3rd step includes asking the new person what they think about the CDs and books. Did this add any value? Regardless what the answer is, the new person is told again how important these things are (E.g. For CDs, it is like carrying a multi million dollar thought process in your pocket, or in your car. According to my own statistics, 20% of the people sign up for the CD/book program. For the rest 80%, they are told almost every month how these things can help them move forward in the business. I still remember the sales pitch that got me to sign up. My upline Diamond told me this:
"What is the difference between you and me? I am more successful than you are, but what else. Let me tell you, its time and the business education. Time, we cant do anything about. Education however you can get as much as your business requires. The more you educate yourself, more successful you will be. You can even beat me if you get educated enough"
Ultimately, if a person is still not signing up for the cd/book program, they are told that they have a humming team coming up. If you dont use these educaiton materials, guess what, your team wont either as they are looking to duplicate you. Now this is a must, and you should do whatever it takes to buy these. "Invest in neck up". For students, they are told to skip a meal once a week to cover the cost of this program ($75)

Wow, skip meals to cover the cost of tools? I heard that also and many others in my group heard the same thing. I'm glad you could confirm it.

Legally speaking, Amway and BWW/WWDB are separate entities. It's a smart and convenient way for Amway to distance themselves from these IBOs and IBO leaders. i.e. "we can't control the entire IBO population". So while they may be separate legal entities, IBOs and BWW/WWDB technically still represent themselves as Amway representatives.

Amway implemented an accreditation program that was supposed to clean things up and maybe it did cosmetically, but I'm sure skipping a meal to buy tools wasn't something that would be accredited, yet here it is being taught to current IBOs. Somehow I'm pretty sure this isn't a isolated incident being that I heard it at a function myself.

The testimonies and the available data from Amway pretty much shows that Amway sucks as a business opportunity and that some people will scam others using Amway as the store front.
 
The big secret of network marketing is that hardly anybody actually does it. People have some friend "in Amway" that buys some stuff, occasionally goes to meetings, but rarely, if ever, does the work necessary to build a network (linkedin requests are not it) and they seem concerned they're not making any money!

In 20 years of studying this industry I have *never* found anyone who actually put the work in and failed to build a network. I've encountered some that have built networks badly (and thus unprofitably) or made some poor decisions along the way which caused issues but never any that didn't get results from the work.

Well, our experiences differ, and that's cool with me. While I've had many people try to suck me into it, I have no quibble with people who choose to sell it until they pester me.

I agree that those who try hard will succeed, exactly as they would in any enterprise, although I stick by the claim people would be far better off in other businesses.

But we won't ever see eye to eye on it. You'll keep defending it, and I'll keep attacking it on the basis that it is selling an almost-impossible dream to people who are too dumb to figure it out.

(I can assure you a church service was part of the Amway conference held here. Was a few years back, but it absolutely happened.)
 
(I can assure you a church service was part of the Amway conference held here. Was a few years back, but it absolutely happened.)

Not just church service, there is a separate service for every religion, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims etc. And everybody gotta attend one of these. The real nut cases are found in these services.
 
Well, I am buying the products, because I am in the business (buy from yourself). It is still a sale for my business, thats my opinion though.

You can consider it a sale for your business, but that makes it an income, not an expense. You can't say you "lost" money and incorporate personal product purchases as part of the loss.

I can speak for 2 groups who havent changed anything in the last 8 years. WWDB and BWW

WWDB is generating a lot less complaints than they used to, so something has changed. Might just have shrunk? BWW still getting complaints, but not like it used to.

Yager Internet seems to have improved significantly, they've had a generational change in leadership. I'm not sure that's happened in BWW or WWDB (yet?)
 
I would argue that both these organizations are Amway. I was in BWW, and we always would get 3-4 speakers from Amway. They also used to claim that BWW is the biggest organization in Amway.

Who said that? I don't think BWW has ever been the biggest organization in Amway?

Thoug we never clarified where you are did we? BWW is biggest in India, where it's causing all sorts of problems.

Well, our experiences differ, and that's cool with me.

And I acknowledge other people (like Sam and Joecool) have different experiences to mine. What irritates me is people think their experience is the "one true Amway experience" and others don't exist. So nice to see someone with flexibility :)

I agree that those who try hard will succeed, exactly as they would in any enterprise, although I stick by the claim people would be far better off in other businesses.

Having started 5 other businesses, I disagree. Hour for hour, Amway has always gotten me more success for less work. I do the other things because I have a passion for them.

(I can assure you a church service was part of the Amway conference held here. Was a few years back, but it absolutely happened.)

It would have been a conference of Amway IBOs, but not run by Amway. There's a difference.

Not just church service, there is a separate service for every religion, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Muslims etc. And everybody gotta attend one of these. The real nut cases are found in these services.

"gotta attend"? I really think if I'd been a part of one of the Britt/Yager groups The Truth About Amway would have quite a different bent.

I had some friends from the US stay with us last year. They're part of BWW and they were quite surprised to discover you could build Amway successfully without being religious. While religious themselves they found it refreshing as they'd never felt comfortable sharing the business with their non-religious network.
 
You can consider it a sale for your business, but that makes it an income, not an expense. You can't say you "lost" money and incorporate personal product purchases as part of the loss.



WWDB is generating a lot less complaints than they used to, so something has changed. Might just have shrunk? BWW still getting complaints, but not like it used to.

Being part of BWW leadership, and having WWDB conference in my city, I can assure you this information you have is wrong :)
 
Who said that? I don't think BWW has ever been the biggest organization in Amway?

Thoug we never clarified where you are did we? BWW is biggest in India, where it's causing all sorts of problems.

.

Oh yeah, I am well aware BWW is not even close to be the biggest or most profitable in Amway. Yet, Amway reps come to BWW conferences to claim that, and 90% of the people do buy that

I am Minnesota, US. BWW is comprised of a lot of Indians, and you are right, they are the part of this problem as well
 

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