Is Amway A Scam?

And this improves the picture how?
The very things you think are strengths are the things I find repellant. And my opinion doesn't even need the ethical shenanigans already described, simply the numbers you have presented.

Just to stay on schedule though, this is the part of the conversation where we move the goal posts and start talking about "valuable business experience acquired" and "buying quality products at a discount."

And this too is reminiscent of Scientology. If one part of the presentation is getting effectively criticized, move to another aspect. If things get iffy there, go to a third and eventually cycle back to the first. This pattern repeats throughout this and other Amway threads.

Icerat is here to move the goalposts. Funny how he's never heard of unethical things happening in his group, when there are times I specified those very things happening in his own group (on another forum). He'll also speak highly of Amway as if everything is rosy, even in the US and we know it's not.

We keep hearing that "amway doesn't do that anymore". Yet Sam's story is almost identical to mine and I quit Amway in 1998 - 14 years ago. As I stated earlier, a lot of the unethical stuff is not taught on the big stage but in smaller groups which are not recorded and sold to IBOs.

Then for Facts, Icerat's common practice is to cherry pick. Some study done in Europe, some award won in Switzerland, etc. Amway's oldest market, the US is a good one to look at. The reputation there is in the tank and Sam's story (which is very likely more common than not) is probably the experience of many dedicated IBOs who were in that line of sponsorship (BWW/WWDB).
 
Tell me, marplots, why is it your openly accept one experience, but not another?

Because that experience matches the data. You know, those numbers about how many people make money with Amway?

And yet I continue to make money, despite your beliefs.

That's a good metric. Let's run with it. Would you say that your experience - the money making one - was the norm? Does it match the data published?

No need to bring up all the usual nuances about customers getting discounts, just answer that simple question - are you an outlier or the norm?

If you are an outlier, it is disingenuous to represent the "Amway experience" as matching your own, no matter how positive your experience has been. It would be akin to Stephen King advising people to "just write" because of the millions he's made.
 
Sam, if it's not too personal, I have a question for you about finances.

In those 8 years with Amway, what kind of money did you net? (I don't mean gross, but after all your expenses, the actual cash in the bank from Amway.)
 
That's a good metric. Let's run with it. Would you say that your experience - the money making one - was the norm? Does it match the data published?

For people who treat it as a business, yes it's the norm.

No need to bring up all the usual nuances about customers getting discounts, just answer that simple question - are you an outlier or the norm?

In my experience, the norm for people who treat it as a business.

If you are an outlier, it is disingenuous to represent the "Amway experience" as matching your own, no matter how positive your experience has been. It would be akin to Stephen King advising people to "just write" because of the millions he's made.

What "Amway experience" are you interested in? The "norm" is to register then do nothing, as many as half never even place an order after registering.

That's the "norm". Treating it as a business is an outlier.

Sam's experience is with one group within Amway, a group that makes up just a small percentage of Amway. My (different) experience is with another group within Amway, a group significantly larger than the one Sam is with, but which still makes up just a small part of Amway. Those two organisations are two of the largest in Amway, yet together would be lucky to represent even a quarter of Amway's sales!

You can't take either of our experiences and extrapolate them to Amway as a whole.
 
And yet I continue to make money, despite your beliefs.

There's no question you can make money out of Amway by building a distributor network.

It's all about whether one is comfortable with promoting fallacies and false dogma to friends to feather one's own nest.

No matter how much money a gold/diamond/titanium member makes, you must acknowledge that their success rests solely on sucking a large number of people into a vortex in which they will make very little progress.

The numbers bear this out completely.

Last time Amway ran a major "conference" (complete with church service, of course) in Auckland, 7000 local Amway distributors attended.

Of that 7000 - which is surely not all Amway distributors in Auckland - only a couple of dozen were actually making more than a couple of dollars an hour for the time they spend on it.

The fact is, Amway is a business model that works. For very few.

As I've said to many Amway distributors over the years, if they invested the same time and passion into any business endeavour, they would be better off doing anything but Amway.

20 years of watching where they take Amway - or where it takes them - has proven me right again and again.

In 20 years, I've built a national business employing 25 people as of today. People who were already Amway distributors when I started and who assured me they would be laughing at me in years to come are the same people I am now chuckling at seeing their LinkedIn requests: still in the same dead-end job, still drawing circles...
 
In 20 years, I've built a national business employing 25 people as of today. People who were already Amway distributors when I started and who assured me they would be laughing at me in years to come are the same people I am now chuckling at seeing their LinkedIn requests: still in the same dead-end job, still drawing circles...

Well there's the problem. You have 25 employees and to be a stable platinum* you need 60 to 150 people. That's what stunned me. I have a customer/client base of less than two dozen (room to grow) with one employee (me) and I'm quite happy.

*or vermillion or chartreuse or whatever whacky title it is.
 
Well there's the problem. You have 25 employees and to be a stable platinum* you need 60 to 150 people. That's what stunned me. I have a customer/client base of less than two dozen (room to grow) with one employee (me) and I'm quite happy.

*or vermillion or chartreuse or whatever whacky title it is.

My customer base is typically less than a dozen. Really, I'm happy with a half dozen. My next door neighbor in a similar business has had three clients for the last 10 years. I don't want to brag about how nice the neighborhood is, but we have running water and garbage service!

Since I don't expect to sell my practice when I retire I have had to invest some of my earnings along the way into an exotic high risk system that may pay me enough to live on down the road. If I'm lucky. It's not as sure as a downline, so I don't recommend it to others, but it is what I do: blue chip dividend paying stocks.
 
Sam, if it's not too personal, I have a question for you about finances.

In those 8 years with Amway, what kind of money did you net? (I don't mean gross, but after all your expenses, the actual cash in the bank from Amway.)

First 4 years, net loss of 7000 per year. Following 4 years got me profits around 30-40k/year (Edit** sorry 30-40 was gross income. 15-20k profit)

And yet I continue to make money, despite your beliefs.

I still make money. I can continue to make money by almost doing nothing. It will go for a while, but it will go down to 0 which is fine. The thing for me is the morality of the team and business. I have not even disclosed the amount of politics that goes around. Mostly among women which causes a lot of problems in a team environment
 
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In 20 years, I've built a national business employing 25 people as of today. People who were already Amway distributors when I started and who assured me they would be laughing at me in years to come are the same people I am now chuckling at seeing their LinkedIn requests: still in the same dead-end job, still drawing circles...

Being fresh out of the Amway boat, I really feel for people who have false hopes and not making any progress/money. Makes me want to help them. Too bad Amway seminars brainwash them to their core and they are trained not to listen to people like me
 
If the system doesn’t make the dream you were promised its because you were not treating it as a business.
 
If the system doesn’t make the dream you were promised its because you were not treating it as a business.

what a cliched line. Been listening this for years in seminars, and it is one of the brainwashing techniques. The idea is to tell the IBO that no matter what, if the business is not working, it is your fault.
 
Yes - There are some good things I have learned from my Amway experience. One of those things is quality listening ability. However, my listening was sharpened only to catch something that I could use to justify Amway business. My past self would have listened, but would provide reasons why it sill works.
All core Amway reps are strong at defending. Thats why I want to provide educated facts to anyone who is looking for truth.

And I agree, we all are dreamers. Normal people dont abuse this beautiful phenomenon. In Amway, it is used as a weapon.

Sam,
What is your opinion on MLMs in general? Better, worse or the same as Amway?
 
Sam,
What is your opinion on MLMs in general? Better, worse or the same as Amway?

My only experience with MLM is Amway. I cant say for sure, but most of them roll the same way (just my opinion). However, my wife did Avon in her college days, and she really liked it. No weekly meetings, or mentor stuff

Few months ago, a friend of mine called me to catch up. He introduced me about his new venture with a company that sells home/life insurance. It was a MLM model, and very similar to Amway, in terms of how the business is run. They had 3 meetings a week, 4 major seminars/ year and 4 small scale seminars/year (Amway/BWW has the exact same schedule)
 
If the system doesn’t make the dream you were promised its because you were not treating it as a business.

what a cliched line. Been listening this for years in seminars, and it is one of the brainwashing techniques. The idea is to tell the IBO that no matter what, if the business is not working, it is your fault.

You know, that line always reminds me of AA.
 
what a cliched line. Been listening this for years in seminars, and it is one of the brainwashing techniques. The idea is to tell the IBO that no matter what, if the business is not working, it is your fault.
Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I think Sideroxylon was being facetious.
 
what a cliched line. Been listening this for years in seminars, and it is one of the brainwashing techniques. The idea is to tell the IBO that no matter what, if the business is not working, it is your fault.

And at the same time, any success is attributed to the foolproof system of cds, books and seminars. You fail, it's all your fault.

It's a perfect "heads I win, tails you lose" teaching from the Amway upline.

While icerat exists to minimize the damage, you'll notice he cannot dispute what happens in BWW or WWDB, so he'll say "I've never heard that" o "our group doesn't teach that", even when there is ample evidence that his group is just like the others.
 
Sam,
We have been told that Amway now polices it's membership and is running a "clean" operation. Is the group you described still in business? Are they still out there recruiting and selling sales tools?
 
Sam,
We have been told that Amway now polices it's membership and is running a "clean" operation. Is the group you described still in business? Are they still out there recruiting and selling sales tools?

I am still registered, and I havent received any such email for my organization. As far as I know, this is a false information
 
There's no question you can make money out of Amway by building a distributor network.

It's all about whether one is comfortable with promoting fallacies and false dogma to friends to feather one's own nest.

Yet I don't do that and make money anyway. Go figure. :rolleyes:

No matter how much money a gold/diamond/titanium member makes, you must acknowledge that their success rests solely on sucking a large number of people into a vortex in which they will make very little progress.

Nope, that's a fallacy. I don't "acknowledge" it at all.

The numbers bear this out completely.

no they don't

Last time Amway ran a major "conference" (complete with church service, of course) in Auckland, 7000 local Amway distributors attended.

To the best of my knowledge Amway has never held a "church service" as part of their conferences. Never. Some distributor organisations, running their own private conferences, have organised non-denominational services in conjunction with but separate to the business conference. Whether they do this depends on the market demand in the area. The org I affliate with does it Australia/NZ, doesn't do it in Europe. I'm an atheist and have never attended them, and I've seen "Diamonds" and above waiting for them to finish to attend the main sessions as well. Apart from my general antipathy towards religion I have no problem with catering to customers to make it easier for them to attend.

Of that 7000 - which is surely not all Amway distributors in Auckland -

A conference of that size would be for all of New Zealand and as most IBOships are couples it probably represents around 4000 IBOship as most.

only a couple of dozen were actually making more than a couple of dollars an hour for the time they spend on it.

Rubbish. Most people - including those who attend the occasional conference - spend very few hours on Amway.

The fact is, Amway is a business model that works. For very few.

Yes, the very few that actually try to make money.

As I've said to many Amway distributors over the years, if they invested the same time and passion into any business endeavour, they would be better off doing anything but Amway.

If people invested the same time and passion into any business endeavour as they typically do in to Amway, they'd get much the same result - not much.

20 years of watching where they take Amway - or where it takes them - has proven me right again and again.

In 20 years, I've built a national business employing 25 people as of today.

Good for you. I've spent 20 years building various ventures, which I've sold and made a lot of money. I also built an Amway business and made money.

People who were already Amway distributors when I started and who assured me they would be laughing at me in years to come are the same people I am now chuckling at seeing their LinkedIn requests: still in the same dead-end job, still drawing circles...

And some of my friends "who were already Amway distributors when I started" have built global networks that generate them very large incomes and generate full-time equivalent incomes for many other people.

Dueling anecdotes! :cool:

Try this - spend a week following your friends around to see how much actual work they do building a network and retailing products, then get back to me.

The big secret of network marketing is that hardly anybody actually does it. People have some friend "in Amway" that buys some stuff, occasionally goes to meetings, but rarely, if ever, does the work necessary to build a network (linkedin requests are not it) and they seem concerned they're not making any money!

In 20 years of studying this industry I have *never* found anyone who actually put the work in and failed to build a network. I've encountered some that have built networks badly (and thus unprofitably) or made some poor decisions along the way which caused issues but never any that didn't get results from the work.
 

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