I challenge you: your best alternate to materialism

The holographic principle was an idea proposed to deal with loss of information relating to black holes. This is a theoretical fix to a theoretical problem. The problem may not actually exist, or it may have a different solution. So, I wouldn't describe this as a core principle. Core principles include things like mass, gravity, volume, charge, inertia, etc. I don't know of any accepted theory that describes everything as information although this concept was used in the science fiction novel Anvil of Stars by Greg Bear.


It’s been bandied about (http://www.fnal.gov/pub/presspass/press_releases/2014/2-D-Hologram-20140826.html ). If information is the reality of reality (and there seems to be more than some reason to come to that conclusion) it would certainly be as ‘core’ as it gets.

We are using the term conscious in different ways. I could state this more precisely but this thread is about non-materialism. Maybe if I start a new thread.


Must be because you’re not referring to Nonpareil’s bullet-proof concrete definition.

The question of consciousness has been central to this thread since its beginning. Just give your definition.


…but Nonpareil…whatever is wrong with your definition? Y’know, the one you keep insisting all the scientists agree with. Is it somehow suddenly lacking? Barehl obviously has scientific credentials (even though, as you have pointed out, he knows nothing about computer or cognitive science). No doubt he will find your definition entirely sufficient.

Consciousness is the capability to experience. It is the ability to feel.
 
…but Nonpareil…whatever is wrong with your definition?

If you're not even going to read the post I quoted for an explanation of what I'm asking and why, why are you here? Or are you just explicitly trolling now?

, the one you keep insisting all the scientists agree with.

I never said this.

For some reason, both you and NotEvenWrong seem to have severe difficulties refraining from putting words in my mouth.

It's really not hard. All you have to do is read what I actually say, and not what you wish I had.
 
This is the issue. That is all you ever have: "something unknown".
It is known, as it is our primary point of experience. My point to Dancing David, does not reduce anything from the position I have adopted. The "mind"of the idealist is evidenced by the point of (seat of) experience, which is also the point of (seat of ) knowledge. The word used to describe it "mind" is nothing more than a suitable label.
Actually having coherent definitions of things causes idealism to collapse upon itself.
It really is time you had a look at some philosophy, rather than coming out with weak statements like this. Perhaps you will show the collapse?

I return to the point I made earlier in the thread, what we are discussing are aspects of reality outside the human mind. As such semantic arguments are irrelevant to the reality out there. Reducing what is out there to semantic perspectives, and mental views is making reality subject to the whims of the human mind again. We're back to human arrogance again, sorry.

Perhaps I should point this out again(it's a few years since the last time).

Real objects in existence occur outside the mind*, any consideration of such objects should follow philosophical rigour to avoid getting caught up in semantic and language reductions. This includes the development and use of conceptual objects, objects free of semantic bias and language reductions.

Indeed it is usefull to think only in terms of conceptual objects and tools when considering existence in any depth and leave behind semantics and language.

*by mind, I am referring to the thinking self-conscious entity, or person, which is the portion of a person which does the thinking and reasoning.
 
********, what neurologist said that or are you pulling a Yrreg and just quoting yourself. What is your source for this statement, the brain and the neurons seem to produce consciousness. Who as a scientist said the **** otherwise?
Yes the brain and neurons seem to produce consciousness and self-consciousness.This and any other analysis I have seen are to vague to point out in any detail which material and how consciousness is produced. Perhaps even individual cells can be pointed to, or groups of cells which appear to result in certain results in the person. There is some understanding of how intelligence is performed, but as I said, this is not necessarily consciousness, but rather processing power. I see no precise understanding anywhere.
 
It really is time you had a look at some philosophy, rather than coming out with weak statements like this. Perhaps you will show the collapse?

I already have. Idealism is entirely incoherent and unsupported by definition. I have already drawn the garage dragon parallel enough times that I'm sure you don't need it repeated again.

And your only response to this is "oh you presume that you can actually come up with an answer", which is an extremely silly thing to say for a number of reasons.

I return to the point I made earlier in the thread, what we are discussing are aspects of reality outside the human mind. As such semantic arguments are irrelevant to the reality out there.

This is entirely true. But if you want to be able to describe the reality out there in any sort of meaningful way, then having proper definitions is necessary.

The only definition you have produced is that of the garage dragon.

Yes the brain and neurons seem to produce consciousness and self-consciousness.This and any other analysis I have seen are to vague to point out in any detail which material and how consciousness is produced.

You literally just said it.

The brain and neurons.

Perhaps even individual cells can be pointed to

No.

or groups of cells which appear to result in certain results in the person.

Unless that group of cells is a series of neurons, no.

There is some understanding of how intelligence is performed, but as I said, this is not necessarily consciousness

No one has said it is.

We still know that consciousness comes from the brain.
 
I already have. Idealism is entirely incoherent and unsupported by definition. I have already drawn the garage dragon parallel enough times that I'm sure you don't need it repeated again.
Well I am surprised that you are using this loose analogy Here. By analogy the dragon in question would be the primary existence and the garage, the owner of the house and the entire world are all secondary.The existence of the dragon is the only thing of which its existence is beyond doubt.


If this is not the case, then the analogy fails, because the "mind" of the idealist is the primary existence in the world of a person.

And your only response to this is "oh you presume that you can actually come up with an answer", which is an extremely silly thing to say for a number of reasons.
You claimed idealism as incoherent, what is your rationale?


This is entirely true. But if you want to be able to describe the reality out there in any sort of meaningful way, then having proper definitions is necessary.
Don't confuse the definition with the object it is devised to represent. Namely consciousness, an object of which there is no clear intellectual understanding.
The only definition you have produced is that of the garage dragon.
I have given a revised definition of consciousness. The logical justification of idealism is well established in schools of philosophy.


You literally just said it.
This is little better than just pointing to a human and declaring that that is where consciousness is produced.

The brain and neurons.
Ditto, the mechanism is not understood. All we know is that living bodies produce in an unknown way conscious experience, something which itself is not fully understood.

How can you in the light of these shortcomings say that it is only computation which is required to generate consciousness?

No.



Unless that group of cells is a series of neurons, no.



No one has said it is.

We still know that consciousness comes from the brain.
The body produces consciousness, yes I agree.
 
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If this is not the case, then the analogy fails, because the "mind" of the idealist is the primary existence in the world of a person.

Here's another analogy: Just because you perceive a star through a telescope doesn't mean the telescope generates the star. Given what you know of the telescope, there is no reason to believe that it does, in fact, and every reason to believe that the star has independant existence.
 
Well I am surprised that you are using this loose analogy Here. By analogy the dragon in question would be the primary existence and the garage, the owner of the house and the entire world are all secondary.The existence of the dragon is the only thing of which its existence is beyond doubt.

This is complete nonsense.

Don't confuse the definition with the object it is devised to represent.

I haven't.

I have given a revised definition of consciousness.

You have given a nonsensical, useless, and unsupported definition of consciousness.

This is little better than just pointing to a human and declaring that that is where consciousness is produced.

No, it isn't. Because we actually know.

You keep trying to pretend that we don't, but you can't get around this. We know that consciousness comes from the brain.

Ditto, the mechanism is not understood. All we know is that living bodies produce in an unknown way conscious experience, something which itself is not fully understood.

How can you in the light of these shortcomings say that it is only computation which is required to generate consciousness?

Because computational consciousness is the only option which is supported by the evidence.

And, in case you forgot, it is supported by literally all of the evidence.
 
There has always been the problem of knowledge. According to Empiricism, knowledge is obtained by experience, by observing the environment. However, with Idealism, all knowledge is internal. Both of these ideas have problems. For example, I can't point to yesterday because it doesn't exist in the environment. On the other hand, since we were born all of our learning has been by observation. So, it doesn't seem that either Idealism or Empiricism gives a complete description.

There are hybrid versions of these. For example, the Presuppositionalism argued by Sye Ten Bruggencate suggests that all knowledge is contained within the mind of God. Notice that this is nearly identical to Idealism except it shifts the focus from ourselves to God, apparently for the sake of humility. What is most interesting about this concept is the brazen attempt to create an unassailable, philosophical dogma. You can view that attempt here.

Some of the shift with Presuppositionalism might not be obvious but this is related to framing. I'm sure most people have watched a movie or seen a photograph or painting and considered what was just outside of frame. Naturally on a movie set there is probably nothing outside of frame that would be related to the scene and there is no way to tell what the artist did not imagine outside the bounds of the painting. For a photograph though, unless it was staged, there should be more if you just had a wider field of view or took a series of photos. This is the same problem we have with knowledge. We aren't aware of conversations outside of our hearing or images behind a hill or people we've never met. However, decisions are based on knowledge. What if the answer to a problem was something we've never heard of? That's unfortunate if you are trying to create something artistic or a new piece of technology, but according to most religious doctrines, ethical decisions can be held against you. The idea that you could be judged because of something unknown to you is unsettling but leads to contradiction if you make allowances based on group exclusion.

In other words, various groups in the Bible were judged to be morally worse than the favored groups like Jews. So, God could kill everyone else in a flood or destroy a couple of cities or simply have everyone murdered by a victorious army. But as the doctrine shifts to Christianity, the group becomes more inclusive, everyone could be a Christian. So, theoretically you could be judged simply on the basis choosing not to be Christian. And if we make the claim that the Bible contains all the ethical instruction anyone might need then we should have a self-contained doctrine. Except...what if you've never of Christianity? Or what if you've heard of Christianity but chose not to investigate further? Or what if you only read the first chapter of the Bible but nothing more? Could you then be judged even if you didn't have enough information to make the right choice? The Presuppositional argument seeks to bypass these problems by claiming that everyone has some kind of telepathic link to God. However, this actually brings the focus back to Idealism because, once again, the source of knowledge is innate.

I suppose it might surprise someone that a theological dogma would be related to Idealism. However, many of these concepts are the same. If you were a solitary mind that existed and reality was some process of your mind then how would you be different from an all powerful god that existed and wanted to create the universe? However, the idea that either we could be God or that God wouldn't be all powerful can be unsettling to some. This might then result in an avoidance of the question rather than working it through to an answer.

The frame problem still exists even outside of ethics. In Idealism you have the question of whether anything exists outside of your knowledge. If it does exist then is it as real as you? If it is real then how can all knowledge be innate? There are some options I can think of. You could assert that nothing exists outside of your knowledge. However, that brings up an obvious question anytime you find out something you didn't know. You could I suppose argue that things simply come into existence when your attention shifts to them much like the way the library books filled in when the contents were described in Pleasantville. However, for anything to exist that you didn't already know would still seem to suggest some kind of agency external to you. Perhaps you could admit that other minds like yours also exist. However, this would allow for knowledge outside of yourself so this too would not really fit. Because of these difficulties, sometimes you see reductions of Idealism where only a portion like wisdom or ethics is claimed to be internal and other facts to be of lesser (or no) importance. However, even a subset tends to be refutable with similar arguments.

You could perhaps assert that while something external might exist, reality is based on your experience. In other words, you could claim that reality is composed of your mental models, classifications, and memories rather than the external things themselves. This can be bolstered by the assertion that external things cannot be directly experienced but only sensed. Let's try that with an example. Suppose I assert that music on a page is not real, only the performance is real. The performance would seem to fit with the idea of personal experience, we sense the music and it becomes real. However, the music on the page is an abstraction much like our mental representations. So, if an abstraction in our mind is real then why wouldn't an abstraction on paper be equally real? If we keep pushing this concept we'll eventually arrive at the idea that our reality is personal to us. But this then also leads to the conclusion that our reality is not different from the realities of other people. This carries the problem of limitations. We can't lift what is too heavy; we can't reach what is too high; and we can't grasp what is too complex. Rather than all knowledge being innate, our knowledge becomes simply the part that fits within our own boundaries. And we can see that those boundaries can be change. If a hill blocks our view we could walk to the top. If something is out of reach we could jump or get a step ladder. If something is too heavy it might not be after some exercise. And, whatever we can't understand today might be grasped tomorrow. This then moves away from Idealism towards Empiricism.

We can also approach this question from other perspectives. What if the effect of something can be detected but the item itself is unknown or undetectable? This has been the case in the past with things like viruses, DNA, radiation, and a whole host of subatomic particles. Eventually we were able to detect them. I suppose it is possible that things could exist like perhaps dark matter, dark energy, or other dimensions that might not be detectable except for their effect. However, just as in the past we normally tend to treat such items as part of the natural world when their effects are consistent even if the exact nature of the cause is unknown. In other words, even if it were impossible to know what dark matter was it wouldn't result in any change to scientific philosophy.

Finally one of the puzzling aspects of a rejection of materialism is that it seems that it can be for two opposing reasons, either wanting to be lesser or wanting to be more. For example, it is not uncommon to hear people assert that humans are not mere rocks or not mere animals. Clearly this is a desire to be more. However, when people assert that ethics cannot be a human concept there seems to be a desire to be less. Likewise, those who practice various forms of self-restraint such as abstinence from sex, not eating meat, avoidance of wealth, or giving up other comforts also seem to be trying to exclude some portion of being human. One does have to wonder to what extent a rejection of materialism is a rejection of self.
 
It’s been bandied about ... as ‘core’ as it gets.
Yes, bandied about because it lacks any evidence. And, something cannot be retroactively core today because it might be proven correct in the future. That's kind of impossible.

Must be because you’re not referring to Nonpareil’s bullet-proof concrete definition.
I'm sure he knows what his definition means. It may or may not be substantially similar to mine.

Consciousness is the capability to experience. It is the ability to feel.
Your definition isn't any more precise. Feel as in experience emotion or feel as in sense?
 
<snip irrelevancy>

You could perhaps assert that while something external might exist, reality is based on your experience. In other words, you could claim that reality is composed of your mental models, classifications, and memories rather than the external things themselves. This can be bolstered by the assertion that external things cannot be directly experienced but only sensed.

You could say that, but it would be very silly.

The distinction that such arguments try to make between sensory experience and "direct experience" is nonsensical and undefined. It is meaningless.

We can also approach this question from other perspectives. What if the effect of something can be detected but the item itself is unknown or undetectable? This has been the case in the past with things like viruses, DNA, radiation, and a whole host of subatomic particles. Eventually we were able to detect them.

Exactly. If they can never be detected, ever, by any means, then they don't exist.

That's what "exist" means.

Finally one of the puzzling aspects of a rejection of materialism is that it seems that it can be for two opposing reasons, either wanting to be lesser or wanting to be more.

Yes. Wonderful. Now.

What is the point of all this?

I started writing it down but it's probably around 1,500 words.

Another no-show, then.
 
Here's another analogy: Just because you perceive a star through a telescope doesn't mean the telescope generates the star. Given what you know of the telescope, there is no reason to believe that it does, in fact, and every reason to believe that the star has independant existence.

Nice!
 
The distinction that such arguments try to make between sensory experience and "direct experience" is nonsensical and undefined.
I guess what you meant to say was that you agree with me, but I assume you were reluctant to state it quite so obviously.

Exactly. If they can never be detected, ever, by any means, then they don't exist.
Except that isn't what I said. I referred to things that have a detectable effect but which themselves are not detectable. I even gave past examples like viruses and DNA. I'm not sure how you misread that so badly.

Yes. Wonderful. Now.

What is the point of all this?
Well, I would have thought that was clear. This is a thread on alternatives to materialism. This was a discussion of alternatives to materialism.

Another no-show, then.
That's an interesting point. You are unwilling to give a summary of Integrated Information Theory because you are afraid I'll pick your answer apart. The post you are replying to is about 1,400 words. I'm estimating 1,500 words to give the definitions for consciousness and probably twice that much for discussion. 4,500 words is about a book chapter of material. I'm not actually bothered by your playground taunts. You can double or even triple dare me if you like.
 
... the paper linked in your post is written by Gonzalo Munevar, who is not a neuroscientist. His doctorate is in philosophy, not biology or any other relevant field.

... Munevar's objections are not a definitive rebuttal.
He relies on a definition of consciousness - mental processes that can be 'voluntarily reported, operated upon, or avoided' - that would deny it to individuals with Locked-in Syndrome. So, not definitive at all.

Other posters appear to support the idea that only the hemisphere that can verbally report it's mental processes can be conscious... it doesn't sound right to me.
 
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Except that isn't what I said. I referred to things that have a detectable effect but which themselves are not detectable. I even gave past examples like viruses and DNA. I'm not sure how you misread that so badly.

I didn't. You misunderstood me.

Viruses and DNA are detectable. This is exactly the point. Things that exist must be detectable in some way, even if it isn't practical to detect them at a given moment. If they aren't detectable, then they have no effect on the rest of the universe, which means that they don't exist.

Well, I would have thought that was clear. This is a thread on alternatives to materialism. This was a discussion of alternatives to materialism.

...No. It was an extended waffle on empiricism and some vague concept of idealism which includes an undefined theory of knowledge. Empiricism is not an alternative to materialism, and idealism comes in many forms because it's a garage dragon and, as such, can do what it damn well likes, because there aren't any rules governing it.

In no way was this a "discussion of alternatives".

That's an interesting point. You are unwilling to give a summary of Integrated Information Theory because you are afraid I'll pick your answer apart.

No. I'm not giving you a summary because you can look at the actual theory, and I'm not going to jump through hoops just because you want to play pointless time-wasting games.
 
He relies on a definition of consciousness - mental processes that can be 'voluntarily reported, operated upon, or avoided' - that would deny it to individuals with Locked-in Syndrome. So, not definitive at all.

Other posters appear to support the idea that only the hemisphere that can verbally report it's mental processes can be conscious... it doesn't sound right to me.

Quite. Which is why jond's previous posts about Ramachandran's work with split-brain patients is so interesting.

The non-dominant hemisphere has lost much of its communicative ability, but it can re-learn at least a portion of these abilities, and when it does, its personality appears to be quite distinct from that of the dominant hemisphere.
 
Viruses and DNA are detectable. This is exactly the point. Things that exist must be detectable in some way, even if it isn't practical to detect them at a given moment. If they aren't detectable, then they have no effect on the rest of the universe, which means that they don't exist.
That statement is not logically true. Something must have a detectable effect to exert influence but that does not mean that it is detectable. This is not a difficult concept.

...No. It was an extended waffle
Absent an extended criticism...curious.

In no way was this a "discussion of alternatives".
Based on the criticism you gave; it could have been a discussion on almost anything. It's rather amusing that the errors are so easy to spot in my writing but apparently nearly impossible to actually explain.

No. I'm not giving you a summary because
Indeed.
 

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