I am sure that there were many unknowns to which those early adventurers prepared for as best they could.
IF there is a continuation of consciousness after death of human instrument, then it might be that OBEs – rather than being some delusion of the brain, are bridges from one state of reality to another.
IF so, then OBEs might be helpful for preparation into that unknown.
But there is no good evidence that consciousness continues after the death of the "human instrument". What other scenarios for which there is no evidence should we prepare for? Should we study Hades in case the Greek scenario of the afterlife is right?
Not exactly.
I am basing another type of existence on what I know of this existence.
It is from this corporal existence that I experience and acknowledge.
I do not have any recalled information that I have consciously used to help me prepare for this corporal experience. All assistance received has been based upon those who have lived or are living a corporal life before my own.
Based on the small amount of subjective experience I have had with OBE, I can deduce that the two types of experience (corporal and non) are closely related.
I do not see from your evidence that any sort of non-corporal experiences exist. All I see is a human who has a very corporal brain that does some odd things sometimes. There is a great deal of evidence for this. There is none for non-corporeal experiences.
Nope. I don’t knock the human instrument. Nor do I belittle the creator of this thing. I am unable to believe that something without intelligence could have created something as complex as a human instrument.
Yet you believe that the even more complex creator could exist without itself being created? Careful, Navigator. That argument is one that is is extremely easy to counter. I don't think you want to go there.
Anymore than I am able to believe that within the universe, there are no other systems which have produced similar complex life-forms.
The odds for other complex life forms existing are quite good. The odds of
encountering them are not nearly as good.
I don’t discount the usefulness of dreams, but the OBEs I have had are clearer than both dreams, and what is referred to as real life.
To you, perhaps, yet you cannot show them to anyone else. Remember, your brain is very good at fooling you. That is why real evidence is objectively observable.
It is possible that there are no voices.
It is possible that there are voices.
It is possible that the voices are heard because the brain of the individual is ‘wired’ to receive these voices.
If so, these voices might come from the incorporeal. If so, this might be another form of ‘heads up’ on something of what is going on in that world.
It is possible that when a personality departs this world it may find itself existing independently of a corporal body.
It is also possible that the personality retains much of its prior self. So if it was a nasty prick in this world, it may be a nasty prick on the other.
I suppose you could say that "anything is possible". But there are so very many "anythings" to choose from. How do you decide which ones are
likely? As it turns out, there is a way that has proved to be reliable time and time again. Evidence.
I don’t long for another world to exist.
Then why are you preparing for it?
I don’t belief in the existence of ‘supernatural’ – IF that parallel world exists, it may very well be a production of this world. This corporal world is natural (although – sheesh! Many believe that it was created by accident –such a belief is more the ‘supernatural’ to me than the belief that there was a conscious intelligence involved)
Natural things have evidence. But it is pure hubris to think that the only way complexity could arise is through consciousness. And again remember, turtles all the way down,
i.e. what created the consciousness?
So far I don’t even have a tiny scratch from the retaliation I have witnessed, to what I have shared.
I am sure you are not physically injured. I suspect that you believe that your arguments have not been countered by better arguments. Such is the nature of forums. But I find it highly unlikely that your arguments have convinced anyone here.
Hmm…then someone might complain about words ‘being made up to suit concepts’ dammed if ya do…
All that I ask is that you stick to the same definition within the scope of a thread. What we call consciousness in humans is nothing like the description of consciousness in some proposed creator.
This is interesting when you discover that some people believe that the brain is responsible for an incredible amount of people’s irrationalities and delusions.
IF this is so, then the brain is actually something that isn’t suitably able to define itself clearly using the device of its self.
And yet, it appears to be the only device around to attempt the job.
Actually, the scientific method is quite good at this sort of thing. In fact, it helps people prevent themselves from being misled by their brains. If the evidence doesn't fit what your brain wants to believe, then you must accept the likelihood that your brain was wrong.
One might conclude therefore that any brains or any number of brains might make up words to express what they see as their own or others delusions.
Even that this might be the case, there is apparently no outside intelligence which could verify conclusively that brains are really delusional or just able to explore places using consciousness, which cannot be done any corporal way.
Each person who is not you is an "outside intelligence". They don't have to be god-like beings. If something is observable by you, but not by the outside intelligences of other people, then the strongest possibility is that it is purely internal to you.
No one knows just how much any or every brain knows, or how intelligent it is beyond the measurable, or how much information it might be able to keep from the part of itself defined as ‘personal identity’, or for what reason it would keep this information, assuming it could.
No, these things are not known with certainty. Good thing too, of a lot of psychologists would be out of jobs.
But many of these things are knowable and indeed are being studied objectively. You might be surprised at how much we do know about these things. But I am not a psychologist. I recommend you direct such questions to Mercutio, who teaches the subject. He's another "nice guy".
Satisfies the mind.
Interesting.
Why does the mind need satisfying?
Why do brains think? It is just what they do. In the light of natural selection, I suspect it has survival value. We are a problem-solving animal. It has worked well for us.
Because it cannot conceive of nothingness? But it can. It started out that way, as far as we each are aware.
We have no sense of ever always having being in existence, therefore it is that understanding which can give us an idea of what it is like to not be.
Yes, it can be defined, but have you actually
conceived of nothingness? What is is like? And how big is infinity?
Maybe it is not so much ignoring as it were, but already having a concept of having come from nowhere.
Just like the universe, as far as we can tell, came from nowhere.
I consider that simply unknown.
And predictability will give the world stability?
Stability? Maybe not. But we will understand much better how it works. I was merely responding to your assertion that the world was unpredictable. Some parts are. Some aren't.
I meant embrace now, the idea of your death being the end of everything that you are.
I don't "embrace" it. Frankly, I'm not really too keen on it. But I accept it. All evidence tells me that this is the case. What I "want" will not change that.
The process of OBE – there is a process.
Can any of this process be demonstrated objectively?
So your process for having what you call OBEs had something to do with panic attacks.
The medications prevented the panic attacks and also stopped the OBEs.
Yes, that is correct. I don't claim that it is the only way that OBEs can occur, but it is one way, and it appears to have a purely physical basis. My experience is anecdotal (and therefore not good evidence) but the collection of numerous pieces of medical evidence shows that my case is not unique.
If I cannot prove to you that it happened, then it cannot be real to you, therefore there is no reason for you to believe it happened.
And there is no way for you to prove to me that it didn’t happen, although you can suggest other hypothetical explanations for me to consider.
Unless you can demonstrate that an actual journey to another realm/plane/existence occurred, then no, I have no reason to believe it happened anywhere other than in your mind. Your incredibly complex, incredibly inventive, incredibly tricky mind. I am open to further evidence.
I think that we may have to wait for science to develop the instrumentation which will be able to achieve this thing, provided of course, that the other side truly does exist.
But gosh, if it can be measured by scientific instruments on
this side, then how can it really be
the other side? Do you see the paradox of trying to defend the supernatural?
Percentage wise…what would be easier for you to believe could exist:
1: There is a continuation of individual conscious awareness after that individual consciousness leaves the dead human instrument.
2: There is an organization of scientists who are funded by the private sector to investigate areas of human consciousness which secular scientists are not funded to investigate.
This is what is know to students of logic as a "false dichotomy". It is not a case of "If not #1 then it must be #2. Honestly, I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make.
But yes, there are many privately-funded groups which try to bend science to their particular brand of mythology. The Discovery Institute comes to mind. That is why it is better to rely on peer-reviewed publications for the most accurate, reproducible, objective information.
