I Am Soul

[RandFan]

If so, then we all would have to reconsider what we imply when we say “I AM”.

I think it quite safe to leave out the "if so".

I fought long and hard to hold on to the notion of "I AM" as concrete and not a Phenakistoscope. It just isn't so. There is no valid hypothesis for it and there are many against it.

It's an illusion (as Blackmore defines illusion).

Funny thing is, it really doesn't matter. The world doesn't come crashing down to know and accept the truth. Life doesn't change. Vision doesn't suddenly become a series of stills. Motion still looks like motion and existence still feels the way it did before. It's a damn good illusion as illusions go.

Not a big deal.

 

[edge]

Here is part of my story Navigator.
I would like to hear more of your's, if you would.

Intro.
I always wished to see more, so I asked in my mind, to see what was going on in the world.
I don’t know if it was a prayer or not, at some point in my life, I asked that the mystery of things that were unsolvable be reveled to me. In this way, what is it that people are witnessing in the skies was the first thing I wondered asked about.
It was more like talking than prayer.

At a certain stage later in my life I would ask even more to be reveled.

I can remember being close and sensing Gods presences at an early age in my life, I believe because children are innocent and they are.
God speaks to them and children can sense him.
As we age we seem to lose that ability though.

When I was about 3, I can remember looking at the sky and sensing his presence all the way into my early teens. It was a kind of mystical experience.

At about 7 years old I can remember communicating with paper wasps that I had captured in a jar, and literally touching and holding them gently as they emerged from their nest, and a realization came to my mind that I must let them go, so I did but where did that voice come from?
Let alone the fact I wasn’t stung multiple times.
I had communicated to them I wasn’t going to hurt them and not to sting me.
I knew that they could and they did not.

Chapter 1.

It started when I was 2 but my parents shielded me from what they had seen.
I remembered the incident and at 17 I asked about it and they told me that what they were observing at that time was a U.F.O.; this was also witnessed by the neighbors, and the city of Gary Indiana police department where there also.
I didn’t get to see that one because I was to small to look out the window but what I remembered was that there was a knot hole below the back porch window that I could see through, and what stuck in my memory was the police talking through their megaphones at the sky. This was a strange memory and that’s why I asked about it.

The answer they gave me was, it was a round glowing red light right above our ally in broad daylight just sitting there in the sky.
What the police did was, call it in to the airport and they had told the people that were in the ally a plane was sent for a closer look, my mom said that when the plane arrived that it shot straight up at an incredible speed and was gone in an instant.

Any way that is what stuck in my mind what I could see and that was the police talking upwards into the sky, I recalled it and asked the question, why were they doing that?
At 18, I started to read up on the subject.
I always wondered if any of it was true.

At the age of twenty-one I still had not witnessed a UFO, and forgot about the subject, it was as unproven then as it seems to be now, or so I thought.

At 22 I enlisted into the army and that is where one day a book appeared in my gas mask case it was about how the Hindus use transcendental meditation for rest, peace, and soul travel.
I have no idea where, how, or who put it there, it was probably a mistake made by some one in the gunnery room.

I was in the field when I discovered it there and started to read it in my spare time.
Rest is something that is precious in the field and the first day it seemed to help with that, by the third day or actually by that night I had accomplished out of body but not all the way, it seemed to be working at it’s peak performance that evening though.
I was in a real meditative state surrounded by a kind of glow that I can’t really describe.
I was in a deep serene rest state my eyes were closed but some how there was a glow that I was observing around my entire body.
I could hear the night noises around me the bugs where noticeable the rustling of the wind through the trees ever so gentle, the stars where magnificent, but how was this visible?
My eyes where closed the glow was gone now, but how!
I thought, this is working really great!

Then something snapped me out of it just as I was starting to enjoy the experience.

But first let me start with this: I was a machine gunner and everybody has a partner, we were away from everybody else on an out post.
First line of defense for the company, my partner decided he wasn’t going to do guard duty and many of them slept through the night, but if you got caught you would be court marshaled and money would be taken out of your pay, I couldn’t afford that and this was a way to rest and still be alert according to what I was reading.
Of course I couldn’t get my partner to relive me. But that third night I achieved what I needed, to rest and be alert at the same time which in its self was amazing.

I was laying on my back when something snapped me out of it, it was chanting as best as I can describe I came to and rolled on my belly, the noise was behind me but the machine gun was pointing the other way so I grabbed my m-16 and was ready to shoot.
I thought the sergeant or the captain were about to walk up on us, catch us with our pants down.

What I was seeing at about the one foot level, that there appeared to be a cigarette lit at night, the thought of why would they be crawling up to my position came to mind and that made no sense--- they wouldn’t do that at night they would have just walked up let alone have a light of any kind unprotected or hid, but yet here it was lit at night.

Hairs all over my body started to stand at attention I could in my waking state still hear the chanting, more faintly now but it was still there, I thought I was dreaming that but apparently I wasn’t.
I even thought what I was hearing was myself for a moment because that’s what you do to get into that state, but I was awake now and it sure as hell wasn’t me!

But it kept receding from my position and as it did, it started to rise and slowly grow.
The woods behind us were thick and I couldn’t understand how anybody could even approach us from that direction let alone go that way deeper into the woods at night, during the day time maybe.
I also rose to get a better view.
This object kept crashing through the brush then the small rows of pines and eventually through the oaks, as it rose, the noise got louder, this is where I tried to wake my partner to witness what I was seeing. I thought that I would as hard as I was trying; I shook that tent so hard I thought the tent would come apart.
I was shaking the tent poles to wake him and calling his name to get up, but he wouldn’t and just grumbled.
The object grew to about a fist size when it finally was above the trees, it then did an abrupt 90 degree turn from due west to north and kept growing, it went about five miles into the distance and at about 70 degrees upward and at that distance it just blinked out. At that distance it still remained that size so it must have kept growing.

I know what you are going to say that I was tired and imagining this or dreaming and I thought that too.

After that incident I got in my sleeping bag and said screw it and went to sleep, I figured I would blame it on him, my sad ass partner if trouble came but it didn’t.
Not only that but it some how seemed safer in the tent, ya right!
Because I was on duty half the night, I did what I was suppose to do, I would just say he feel back asleep because it was the truth in a sense.

That morning I went out there to take a dump and decided to see if there were any traces of what I was hearing.
I couldn’t tell in the brambles or the pines but where the line of oaks started, there were big broken branches from the oaks on the ground where this thing had crashed through making incredible noise.
Several fresh broken off branches where lying on the ground about the size of my thigh and ten to twenty feet long. I was amazed that no one else heard this.
I knew how to track, the army taught me that. Several of the guys came to our camp spot
That morning to visit and I asked them if they heard anything last night and the answer was that everybody was passed out and the captain was angry, because when he got up, everyone was sleeping and not doing what they were suppose to do, like rotating guard duty.
Most of the company was in a central group with only 4 out posts, at least for this night.
So the upper rank had an easy time catching people not doing what they were suppose to be doing.

To be a good observer of phenomena you have to be a good detective and reading all the literature that I did on the UFO phenomenon made me that way, learning from the mistakes of other observers plus the military taught me at the time to identify all of the aircraft and ground vehicles that were around at the time.
Time line was 1974 to 1977.
But that next night was just as strange as the previous if not more so.
Something had been awakened in my mind and I didn’t need to meditate anymore to see what was in the real world around me as I was to find out.
We were to attack a position 17 miles away the next night.
I hated night firefights even though we were to have helicopter gun ships soften up the position, I was nervous and apprehensive about something as I was to find out that next night.

 

[RandFan]

I can remember being close and sensing Gods presences at an early age in my life, I believe because children are innocent and they are.
God speaks to them and children can sense him.
As we age we seem to lose that ability though.

The psychology of children is well understood. When humans are born our brains are not capable of fully understanding reality. Children live, to some degree, in a fantasy world. One of my children had an invisible freind. My children delighted over the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. As we grow older and our brains map more and more of the real world our thinking and our sense of the world becomes more concrete.

Finding significance in this and attributing it simply to innocence is a gross error due to naiveté and being overly confident in your ability to access child psychology.

The real world is facinating. Human psychology is facinating. Understanding the real world and our place in it is very rewarding. Why is it important for some to hold on to the world of make believe?

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

--1 Corinthians 13:11

 

[RandFan]

I know what you are going to say that I was tired and imagining this or dreaming and I thought that too.

Who knows?

Possibilities:

• This was something extra-ordinary (out of this world).
• You imagined/dreamed it.
• You are not telling the truth.

I'd like to believe that you believe it. Here's the problem though. There are thousands, if not millions, of such anecdotes that include everything from fairies to leprechauns to various gods. What are people to make of all of these? Nothing really. People have seen Elvis. It doesn't mean that I believe he is still alive. Given parsimony, critical thinking and skepticism there's not much one can do with such a story. Unless one is willing to entertain that all such claims are likely then one must be skeptical of all such claims.

It's really quite simple.

 

[edge]

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

--1 Corinthians 13:11
Yes very true especially when one thinks in terms of playing.

This wasn’t about playtime though and learning about the real world around us is very important when your life is on the line as mine could have been and learning about different religions and what they describe and then when you are actually a participant that indicates a form of proof seems to indicate to me there is truth in all and truth in the one.
Then it also follows along with what else is known through other sources, well then there it is, in front of you, on many levels.
Pieces of truth are part of the whole, you have to get the whole through these little hints and there is way more to the story as a whole, even in mine.
That was just a little piece of the puzzle.

 

[RandFan]

"Yes very true especially when one thinks in terms of playing.

I see no relevance of the distinction.

This wasn’t about playtime though and learning about the real world around us is very important when your life is on the line as mine could have been and learning about different religions and what they describe and then when you are actually a participant that indicates a form of proof seems to indicate to me there is truth in all and truth in the one. Then it also follows along with what else is known through other sources, well then there it is, in front of you, on many levels.
Pieces of truth are part of the whole, you have to get the whole through these little hints and there is way more to the story as a whole, even in mine.
That was just a little piece of the puzzle.

And it would seem that it ultimatly leads to a million different completed and conflicting views of the natural world. Which are correct and how would you know?

How does sap flow against gravity up a tree?
How does blood circulate through the body?
What is the composition of matter?
How are phnotypes passed from adult to child?
Why does decaying flesh cause disease?

In the past the answers to all of these questions were answered in the way that you seek the truth. They were wrong. Ultimatly science gave us real answers that are not controversial.

I'm interested in the truth and not simply explanations that appeal to mystical preconceptions or are based on what I would like the truth to be. A UFO might be exciting but the answer is likely prosaic.

 

[Moochie]

The psychology of children is well understood. When humans are born our brains are not capable of fully understanding reality. Children live, to some degree, in a fantasy world. One of my children had an invisible freind. My children delighted over the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. As we grow older and our brains map more and more of the real world our thinking and our sense of the world becomes more concrete.

Finding significance in this and attributing it simply to innocence is a gross error due to naiveté and being overly confident in your ability to access child psychology.

The real world is facinating. Human psychology is facinating. Understanding the real world and our place in it is very rewarding. Why is it important for some to hold on to the world of make believe?


"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

--1 Corinthians 13:11

I think it bloody marvelous that we have a brain that can conjure such magic. I find the older I become the less I allow my imagination to roam where it will, focusing instead on the "real world," and all its travails. But there's the rub: it's not the real world at all, it's my particular take on the real world, colored by all the "aches and pains" -- physical or psychological -- that the flesh is heir to.

It's only every now and then that I have what I call a "really lucid moment" (RLM), when, for a moment that can seem like much more than that, all the "aches and pains" and travails recede and I am left feeling very light.

Sorry if that's not terribly clear.

M.

 

[Navigator]

There seem to be stories within stories…and from what I am understanding from a certain pov, even what ‘we’ call real is not real, because ‘we’ are not real.
That is – the thing that ‘we’ refer to as ‘self’ is in fact a delusion cause by an illusion.

But of course, even if this is a fact, (and it is believed to be one by those who profess it – or not, but they want other to believe it) those who say this is true, have to be a ‘self’ even in order to make those statements, or live any kind of life within this matrix, so knowing that one’s ‘self’ is a delusion caused by and illusion makes no significant difference to the way life is lived.

It does however prevent (what) from being distracted from anything which is likely caused by the illusion. It prevents the self from becoming delusional.

Edge – your story in the beginning when you spoke of the wasps, and your interaction with these ones. It reminded me of occasions where I have spoken to a bee (child that I am) and invited it to land on my finger, and it has.
Or the time I was sitting in a city park with my brother – speaking about ‘spiritual’ things, and eating a bread roll. There were sparrows around waiting for some food to be thrown to them. I put a small piece of crust between my lips and invited the nearest sparrow to ‘come and get it’ and it flew up and took the bread from my lips.

Nice little happenings you will agree. Sometimes I think that the insects and animals simply understand that there is no danger – they pick up your intentions, perhaps as some kind of vibration or signal which is not perceived by our own senses.

Another thing that occurs to me is how even animals and insects have an understanding of the ‘self’ – even a baby human, can formulate this sense of self into a cohesive expression – it does not consciously know that this is what it is doing, but adults respond to its sense of self and understand that it requires attention.

I think the main thing regarding personal experiences that appear to be abnormal, is that – even when we read up or find some information in an effort to try to understand these things, that we don’t just buy into any explanation anyone might convincingly try to explain to us.
It is good and wise to listen to what others have to say, but always keep the mind open and even fluid, as in not to become static in our beliefs or unbeliefs.

 

[Navigator]

RandFan – you cannot live your life without being an identity of some sort.
You are ‘RandFan’ in this forum, and 22,081 posts into it, you are sure to have garnered both support and adversity under that identity.
That identity is an extension of your true identity as an individual out there in your community.

Simply that we as humans can and do interact on the level which identifies self to other selves and that you yourself are involved in this process says that you as a self is not an illusion.

From what I have gathered in the Blackmore link, it is apparent that our conscious part does really experience the matrix as a consistent flow but as a series of stills which we then place things unreal into it in order to experience the certainty of a more fluid perception of reality.

What I am reading in your reply is that the universe not is a series of stills but our sense of self is.

Over many years I have learned to focus attention on my experience of self as it relates to the particular aspect of the matrix my sense of self is involved with.

One particular part of that experience involved a conscious decision to cut off my use of money and just go out on the road and see what would occur. I was testing a particular philosophy at the time, and had the expectation that regardless of the fact that I had no means of support, I would be looked after.

Over that period of time, every day unfolded in such a way that I could not deny that while my expectations were proved correct, HOW I was looked after was not predictable.
This is to say, that the ‘I am’ that you consider an illusion connected on a personal level with the matrix we all share and this matrix itself proved to be something of a personality in itself – something that considers itself as a self.

Of course I fully understand that for a lot of …hmmm…individual ‘selves’ – even most likely your ‘self’ may regard such understanding – that personification of a seemingly impersonal universe, to be nothing more than delusion.
Especially when you consider your self as an illusion.

Be that as it may, I cannot simply drop what I have experienced and pick up what you say is the truth, when I have had so many years involved in establishing for my self, a connection with that universe which defies the concept of an impersonal universe.

It is not about ME holding onto ‘precious’ unproven belief systems. I am quite happy to explore for example, the theory of the human brain creating my sense of self. This is fine by me, but I have to wonder at my brain (the power of all brains potentially) to control outside events to the satisfaction of that sense of self it has created.

I have to wonder also exactly what reason my brain gave me those apparitions regarding the ancient grey entity or why my brain wanted me to experience the illusion of being grabbed by an invisible entity and pulled out of my body.
What is the brain trying to show the sense of self it has created?

The most convenient answer would be that I suffer delusions which medication created by science is able to help prevent. That is one answer.
But this answer doesn’t respect the obvious unknown power of the brain enough to explore. In fact all it wants to do is suppress.
This too is understandable, because while (as you and others believe as truth) the sense of self is an illusion, without this sense of self even science would have no ability to explore this matrix.
Nor for that matter, would such glorious scientific contributions to humanity be in existence without individuals having a sense of self.

And when it comes to the building of such devices which appear to benefit humankind, science is not concerned with the beliefs of those individuals who are necessary to actualize these great projects.
Without that individual sense of self, such projects would not exist.
.

 

[RandFan]

...so knowing that one’s ‘self’ is a delusion caused by and illusion makes no significant difference to the way life is lived.

"Delusion"? I'm not familiar with that at all but that's fine. Illusion, yes. As to the "no significant difference", that is what I keep saying.

Edge – your story in the beginning when you spoke of the wasps, and your interaction with these ones. It reminded me of occasions where I have spoken to a bee (child that I am) and invited it to land on my finger, and it has.
Or the time I was sitting in a city park with my brother – speaking about ‘spiritual’ things, and eating a bread roll. There were sparrows around waiting for some food to be thrown to them. I put a small piece of crust between my lips and invited the nearest sparrow to ‘come and get it’ and it flew up and took the bread from my lips.

Nice little happenings you will agree. Sometimes I think that the insects and animals simply understand that there is no danger – they pick up your intentions, perhaps as some kind of vibration or signal which is not perceived by our own senses.

Another thing that occurs to me is how even animals and insects have an understanding of the ‘self’ – even a baby human, can formulate this sense of self into a cohesive expression – it does not consciously know that this is what it is doing, but adults respond to its sense of self and understand that it requires attention.

Let's not forget what those ancient Greeks figured out that allowed us to go to the moon, figure out the structure of matter and DNA. We should be very careful to draw conclusions from these types of events.

I think the main thing regarding personal experiences that appear to be abnormal, is that – even when we read up or find some information in an effort to try to understand these things, that we don’t just buy into any explanation anyone might convincingly try to explain to us.
It is good and wise to listen to what others have to say, but always keep the mind open and even fluid, as in not to become static in our beliefs or unbeliefs.

Agreed 100% But be willing to consider theories that are backed by sound reason and evidence.

Don't be so open minded that your brain falls out.

 

[RandFan]

RandFan – you cannot live your life without being an identity of some sort.
You are ‘RandFan’ in this forum, and 22,081 posts into it, you are sure to have garnered both support and adversity under that identity.
That identity is an extension of your true identity as an individual out there in your community.

Simply that we as humans can and do interact on the level which identifies self to other selves and that you yourself are involved in this process says that you as a self is not an illusion.

From what I have gathered in the Blackmore link, it is apparent that our conscious part does really experience the matrix as a consistent flow but as a series of stills which we then place things unreal into it in order to experience the certainty of a more fluid perception of reality.

What I am reading in your reply is that the universe not is a series of stills but our sense of self is.

No. Sorta back-words, kinda.

For those interested I would recommend a chapter from Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion entitled "The Mother of all Burkas".

To state that the universe is not a series of stills is to fail to understand the nature of reality. If we could perceive time in nano seconds then reality may very well seem like a series of stills. If we were nano inches in height the smoothest ball from a bearing would like like the surface of a planet.

Reality appears the way it does to us because we evolved at this level and not the nano level (or some other level).

 

[edge]

Moochie says,

(RLM),

Yep I have to agree.
It goes futher sometimes.

 

[Navigator]

From what I have gathered in the Blackmore link, it is apparent that our conscious part does NOT really experience the matrix as a consistent flow but as a series of stills which we then place things unreal into it in order to experience the certainty of a more fluid perception of reality.

What I am reading in your reply is that the universe IS not a series of stills but our sense of self is.

Backwords...yes = sorry about that...I bolded the changes I made to the original.

One persona lives as if the self is real, and the other lives thinking the self is illusion but living that illusion anyway.
No significant difference. As such, nothing worth mentioning.

I will have a read on Dawkins God Delusion if such is available on the net...

Experiencing time...if not in nano seconds, then in what way do we 'selves' experience 'time'

 

[RandFan]

What I am reading in your reply is that the universe IS not a series of stills but our sense of self is.

Backwords...yes = sorry about that...I bolded the changes I made to the original.

Let me first say that I should be careful not convey an air of confidence that I'm really not entitled to. I'm only voicing my understand of what folks like Dawkins, Dennett, Pinker, Blackmore and others have said.

AIU, it's not helpful to say that the universe is or is not a series of stills. It all depends on your perspective.

One persona lives as if the self is real, and the other lives thinking the self is illusion but living that illusion anyway.
No significant difference. As such, nothing worth mentioning.

I don't know if there are two personas but I agree that it doesn't matter either way. It seems real and there is no practical difference to living as though the self doesn't exist. Like you said earlier (I think you said something to the effect), it is only helpful in keeping us from making invalid assumptions about the universe and our place in it.

Experiencing time...if not in nano seconds, then in what way do we 'selves' experience 'time'

We perceive time through change. Change in thought. Change in sensory input (the phone rang for a minute).

I don't remember the exact length of time but there are a number of theories that have been tested that would seem to show that we experience time in about a second. We cannot consciously perceive change in time periods much less than a second (as I remember). Assuming it is a half of a second or a even a quarter of a second that is a hell of a lot longer than a nano second.