Hypnosis: had any experience of it?

[Skeptic Ginger]

So do you think actors cannot reasonably portray panic without actually panicking? Is every scene of panic in a movie unconvincing? How often have you seen people panicking and screaming in terror in real life?

All that's moot. My friend was freaked out. If you were there, you'd know why there's no way that was planned acting.

But, since you weren't there, oh well.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

First of all, that study is way too small to prove anything. Even so, they tested a very minor kind of hallucination: color perception. You are describing a much more detailed hallucination than that: not just visual, but perceptual and emotional as well. The study you cited does not support that kind of hallucination.

Now, I am not a scientist and I don’t understand all the jibber jabber about EEG readings and such, but i do have to wonder how they can eliminate the possibility of fakery. Did they do runs with people who were faking to compare readings? Like if they ran it with me, no hypnosis/hallucination and I called every square blue, would my EEG readings be somehow different?

Yes. Because of the nature of hypnosis with only about 10% (or whatever the % is) of the population being highly susceptible, and given the limited therapeutic value impacts the availability of research dollars, chances are you are only going to see limited studies with small sample sizes.

But what you are forgetting is how hard and reliable the evidence is that the fMRI and EEGs were reliable.

You can't fake a seizure on an EEG, for example.

And yes, of the two studies I posted both tried and were unsuccessful for an un-hypnotized person to replicate the results. IOW both studies used controls.

 

[Senex]

That's not what the functional MRI showed.

It's no surprise it won't work for anesthesia, the trance is not that deep.

As for discredited, there's plenty of research that confirms it. I did post pro-hypnosis links. Most of the discrediting I've seen comes from incredulity and failure to use highly susceptible people.

Even the sharpest of us are allowed to be wrong occasionally.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Even the sharpest of us are allowed to be wrong occasionally.

Does this mean I've convinced you?

I've been wrong plenty of times. But not in this case, I've seen irrefutable evidence. Not lights in the sky, not missing time, not an animal in the woods that could be a person in a suit, not something in the lake at a distance, not floating orbs or a face in the window of an empty house.

I saw my friend freak out, she thought she was on the ceiling, we had no idea she'd react that way. She giggled when she thought people in the room were naked. She freaked out. There is no reason it would have been faked.

And there are brain studies that back up the conclusion, she wasn't faking it.

I am sorry other people didn't see what I saw because it was pretty interesting.

 

[Lothian]

Last year I got sent an invoice by a hypnotist for a session where he helped me forget about ever being hypnotised. Absolutely no recollection of it so I was obviously happy to pay and include a generous tip as well.

 

[Cat Not Included]

All that's moot. My friend was freaked out. If you were there, you'd know why there's no way that was planned acting.

But, since you weren't there, oh well.

So you contend that no-one can plausibly act out a freak out without freaking out? There are some pretty convincing actors out there!

If I was there, how would I distinguish a genuine freak out from acting? Did you take blood pressure readings? I don't have any particular unusual skill in distinguishing an "act" from a real emotion - do you?

You just seem to put a lot of confidence into this certainty that it could NOT have simply been acting. But people are able to act, and are able to convincingly express emotions they are not actually feeling.

I'm particularly struck because a lot of classic paranormal frauds got a lot more mileage because of "I'm sure she couldn't be faking it'.

 

[Senex]

Does this mean I've convinced you?

I've been wrong plenty of times. But not in this case, I've seen irrefutable evidence. Not lights in the sky, not missing time, not an animal in the woods that could be a person in a suit, not something in the lake at a distance, not floating orbs or a face in the window of an empty house.

I saw my friend freak out, she thought she was on the ceiling, we had no idea she'd react that way. She giggled when she thought people in the room were naked. She freaked out. There is no reason it would have been faked.

And there are brain studies that back up the conclusion, she wasn't faking it.

I am sorry other people didn't see what I saw because it was pretty interesting.

I'm not doubting you saw what you saw. I am doubting there is a medical device that can ascertain a person who is hypnotized from someone who isn't. You check the literature. Kreskin offers a reward for proof similar to Randi's reward.

I'm stating a fact when I say there is no science to support hypnosis as an alternate state of consciousness.

 

[Myriad]

One of the odder interests of my childhood was a 1964 book (I would have acquired it around 1967) called "Self Hypnotism" by one Leslie M. Lecron.

The premise was that by performing mental exercises resembling a hypnotist's techniques (reciting certain scripts aloud or mentally, along with certain imagined visuals such as descending a series of escalators) one can self-induce a hypnotic trance state. Once in that state, one can supposedly (among other things) talk oneself out of bad habits, recover lost memories via regression, fall asleep at will directly from the trance, and anesthetize specific sections of the body. The latter in particular sounded like it could be really useful. (The gist of it is to visualize a control panel of nerve connections to different parts of the body and imagine turning off the switch for the part one wants to numb.)

Given the motivation of the possibility of acquiring what amounted to super-powers, I went through the whole course of exercises repeatedly, starting over and trying again at various ages. None of it ever worked.

(The Amazon reviews suggest that some of it does work for some people.)

Even though it never worked for me, it might still have had some value, because it got me interested in the general idea of taking more control of ones own internal narratives using mental exercises. For instance I eventually did figure out a way to reduce pain (nothing like anesthetizing; more like increasing tolerance) via a thought exercise almost the direct opposite of the "pretend to turn off a switch" approach.

I kind of miss the hypnotism/brainwashing folklore of the 1960s, though, when you could (according to movies and TV shows at least) program a person, by means of flashing lights and funny noises (and sometimes a drug), without them even being aware of it or remembering it afterward, to suddenly turn into a ruthless trained assassin upon hearing a certain code phrase.

In the 50 years since, we've gotten pretty good at getting people to buy crap they don't need (partially by means of flashing lights, funny noises, and code phrases), so there's that.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So you contend that no-one can plausibly act out a freak out without freaking out? There are some pretty convincing actors out there!

I contend my friend was truly freaked out and it wasn't acting. I made no other generalization.

If I was there, how would I distinguish a genuine freak out from acting? Did you take blood pressure readings? I don't have any particular unusual skill in distinguishing an "act" from a real emotion - do you?

You just seem to put a lot of confidence into this certainty that it could NOT have simply been acting. But people are able to act, and are able to convincingly express emotions they are not actually feeling.

All I can do is describe it. She was fine when my brother told her everyone was naked. She giggled. But the second he told her she was on the ceiling she absolutely freaked out, kicking her legs and screaming. I'm sorry, my 14 yr old friend wasn't that sophisticated to have done that purposefully. But...

I'm particularly struck because a lot of classic paranormal frauds got a lot more mileage because of "I'm sure she couldn't be faking it'.

I get all that, I'm not one that accepts anecdotes that aren't systematically collected with controls for other variables either.

That's why I'm not relying on my observation as the evidence here that hypnosis is real in susceptible people.

What I'm saying is what I saw convinced me. That's why when people dismiss hypnosis with a hand-wave and tell everyone about Penn & Teller's BS episode, I am not convinced by that 'testimony'.

I don't expect my anecdote to convince anyone else.

So I looked for more evidence and I found some. People here want to hand-wave that away too, and instead of looking at the research with an open mind, they find ways to dismiss the evidence as invalid. It's pretty hard to fake an fMRI and an EEG.

If you (or anyone else) decides to reevaluate the evidence, keep two things in mind. Only some people are susceptible, and using hypnosis for whatever outcome is being looked at (like smoking cessation for example) is simply not the same thing as verifying that some people can be hypnotically induced to hallucinate.

Using hypnosis therapeutically is doomed to fail since only a few people are susceptible.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'm not doubting you saw what you saw. I am doubting there is a medical device that can ascertain a person who is hypnotized from someone who isn't. You check the literature. Kreskin offers a reward for proof similar to Randi's reward.

I'm stating a fact when I say there is no science to support hypnosis as an alternate state of consciousness.

I posted two different studies. Did you look at them?

 

[Senex]

oops, double post. my bad

 

[Senex]

I posted two different studies. Did you look at them?

I didn't. If you Post them again, here, I will. Just know I'm humoring you like someone who was complaining about being probed by aliens. You believe and that's good enough for me.

I'll read the studies.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I didn't. If you Post them again, here, I will. Just know I'm humoring you like someone who was complaining about being probed by aliens. You believe and that's good enough for me.

I'll read the studies.

post #140

post #155

My anecdote is there to explain why I dismiss everyone else's assertions.

 

[Senex]

post #140

post #155

My anecdote is there to explain why I dismiss everyone else's assertions.

Well, I was trying to read your scientific studies but that darned alien probe scenario kept distracting me.

A number of women told me they would still respect me tomorrow. We've all been mislead at times.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It's hard to find studies that looked specifically for objective changes in the hypnotic state, no surprise given the limited therapeutic value of hypnosis But here are 2 more, nether has the full article available free:

Functional neuroanatomy of hypnotic state.

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
The aim of the present study was to describe the distribution of regional cerebral blood flow during the hypnotic state (HS) in humans, using positron-emission tomography (PET) and statistical parametric mapping.

METHODS:
The hypnotic state relied on revivification of pleasant autobiographical memories and was compared to imaging autobiographical material in "normal alertness." A group of 9 subjects under polygraphic monitoring received six H215O infusions and was scanned in the following order: alert-HS-HS-HS with color hallucination-HS with color hallucination-alert. PET data were analyzed using statistical parametric mapping (SPM95).

RESULTS:
The group analysis showed that hypnotic state is related to the activation of a widespread, mainly left-sided, set of cortical areas involving occipital, parietal, precentral, premotor, and ventrolateral prefrontal cortices and a few right-sided regions: occipital and anterior cingulate cortices.

CONCLUSIONS:
The pattern of activation during hypnotic state differs from those induced in normal subjects by the simple evocation of autobiographical memories. It shares many similarities with mental imagery, from which it differs by the relative deactivation of precuneus.

(full article behind pay wall)


An old study: NYSTAGMUS AS A CRITERION OF HYPNOTICALLY INDUCED VISUAL HALLUCINATIONS.
BRADY JP, LEVITT EE.

Abstract
Hypnotized subjects who report hallucinating a visual situation which would ordinarily elicit optokinetic nystagmus demonstrate nystagmus under these conditions. They and control subjects are unable to feign nystagmus in the waking state, either by imagining the situation or by direct efforts to simulate the eye movements. Thus an objective criterion is provided for the presence of visual hallucinations.

 

[Senex]

It's hard to find studies that looked specifically for objective changes in the hypnotic state, no surprise given the limited therapeutic value of hypnosis But here are 2 more, nether has the full article available free:

Functional neuroanatomy of hypnotic state.(full article behind pay wall)

We all know we must pay for certain wisdom.

Abstract
Hypnotized subjects who report hallucinating a visual situation which would ordinarily elicit optokinetic nystagmus demonstrate nystagmus under these conditions. They and control subjects are unable to feign nystagmus in the waking state, either by imagining the situation or by direct efforts to simulate the eye movements. Thus an objective criterion is provided for the presence of visual hallucinations.

Any paragraph that uses the word nystagmus more than once is certain to be crap. I'm good at sussing this out.

 

[Senex]

We all know nystagmus people could be treated better.

Sorry.

 

[wasapi]

I only know my experiences and those observed. However, my cousin is an Army Commander, PHD and a Doctor who gave up medicine to practice Hypnotherapy. His specialty was using it to control pain in soldiers with injuries, as well as children from other countries who had been injured because war. Casualties.


So, I do have that connection. He attempted many times on me, in different ways. In person, over the phone, on a special tape he made my for my specific pain. No. Nothing. Years later he asked about the pain, which I had finally seen a doctor about, but he insisted the, he had "always known it was all in my mind anyway", and was aware I had never "allowed" myself to be hypnotized.

He made a good point. He was my creepy old cousin who, while in medical school but "babysitting" me, he would drive to the morgue. Leave me in the car, all lights out. Then go inside and make loud howling sounds. Oh, yeah, and he tried to French kiss me a few times too.

But here is the other thing. I observed him both in person a few times and on Army tapes of him hypnotizing children who were to soon be given morphine, as well as children who had to be painfully weaned at some point. Those sessions were often successful. At the worst, the pain was still reported as less.

Since cousin Jimmy, I have tried a couple of times, but I sense it just isn't going to happen for me.


However, one more experience, my close friend was a heavy smoker and had been for 30 years. She told me she didn't want to quit and could afford it. She had a great job at the time with great benefits. Her boss offered any workers who smoked, to get a paid day off if they attended a "paid for hypnosis session. She was called in to a room with about 10 strangers. She said the hypnotist came out and she didn't "try much", as she said she didn't want to quit. I asked why she was going and it was just, "get out of work and try to make it not another boring work day.


Yeah. Never felt hypnotized. Never felt like having a cigarette again. About 4 years later, her husband of 23 yrs was killed in a tragic accident. Not long ago, she told me that she realized she had not considered smoking again in the years following Don's death.


So, in answer to the OP, these are my experiences.

 

[Myriad]

But Teri was another story. She went under easily. My brother told her she was naked and the rest of us weren't. She giggled but wasn't that freaked out. But then he told her she was on the ceiling looking down and she literally started screaming and kicking her legs. It was totally unexpected and out of character for anyone who was just faking it or going along like the Peter Popoff forehead push knock over. My brother had to bring her out of it right then.

We were high school kids. There was no 'pressure' to pretend. It was just the 4 of us. I wasn't under so if anything my friend would have had peer pressure not to be under either. If you'd witnessed how upset she was kicking and screaming you'd not doubt hypnosis is a real phenomena.

I've been thinking about this incident and something about it seems wrong to me. It's common enough to be afraid of heights or falling. It's common enough to become upset and be unable to function normally when perceiving heights or the possibility of falling. This is partially an adaptive reaction, because in natural environments heights and falling can be life-threatening.

But kicking is not an adaptive reaction to the danger of falling, and it's not (thankfully) a common reaction to being in a high place or in a situation where falling is likely. Screaming, sure. Freezing up, clinging, trying to crawl or lie down, perhaps shaking or sweating are the kinds of reactions one would expect. But kicking doesn't fit, unless a person is trying to gain purchase while hanging (e.g. by their arms, or being hanged by the neck). The scenario described was being on the ceiling, not hanging from it. Kicking would be the last thing you'd want to do, or would instinctively tend to do.

The implication is that Teri found the hypnotic suggestion distressing or deserving of a generically distressed response, but not because of any perceived reality of being on the ceiling looking down

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I've been thinking about this incident and something about it seems wrong to me. It's common enough to be afraid of heights or falling. It's common enough to become upset and be unable to function normally when perceiving heights or the possibility of falling. This is partially an adaptive reaction, because in natural environments heights and falling can be life-threatening.

But kicking is not an adaptive reaction to the danger of falling, and it's not (thankfully) a common reaction to being in a high place or in a situation where falling is likely. Screaming, sure. Freezing up, clinging, trying to crawl or lie down, perhaps shaking or sweating are the kinds of reactions one would expect. But kicking doesn't fit, unless a person is trying to gain purchase while hanging (e.g. by their arms, or being hanged by the neck). The scenario described was being on the ceiling, not hanging from it. Kicking would be the last thing you'd want to do, or would instinctively tend to do.

The implication is that Teri found the hypnotic suggestion distressing or deserving of a generically distressed response, but not because of any perceived reality of being on the ceiling looking down

She was sitting on a couch and was kicking her legs to get down. No sure what you are picturing. I would imagine a person who was standing would do something different.

Think about it, if you weren't on the ceiling looking down you would come up with all those scenarios in your mind of how you'd react. But you can't say what you would do if suddenly you actually believed you were on the ceiling.

You can imagine all the reasons you want not to believe what I say I observed. She freaked out. The kicking was a natural reaction attempting to get down.