Hypnosis: had any experience of it?

[Cosmic Yak]

She was sitting on a couch and was kicking her legs to get down. No sure what you are picturing. I would imagine a person who was standing would do something different.

Think about it, if you weren't on the ceiling looking down you would come up with all those scenarios in your mind of how you'd react. But you can't say what you would do if suddenly you actually believed you were on the ceiling.

You can imagine all the reasons you want not to believe what I say I observed. She freaked out. The kicking was a natural reaction attempting to get down.

But you weren't on the ceiling either. Why is your opinion of what a 'natural reaction' to this would be better than anyone else's?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

But you weren't on the ceiling either. Why is your opinion of what a 'natural reaction' to this would be better than anyone else's?

All this analysis, have at it. My friend freaked out. I don't need to analyze it, I was there.

She was not 'going along' or whatever is the current fad of dismissing hypnosis is because Penn and Teller said so.

But like I said, my experience is why I know hypnosis is real. I don't expect anyone else to use my anecdote as sufficient evidence. Look at the studies I posted. Brain changes are objectively measured. People can be hypnotized to hallucinate.

Don't believe it. Dismiss it because that is the current fad.

I saw it, it wasn't fake, and the research confirms it.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I contend my friend was truly freaked out and it wasn't acting. I made no other generalization.

All I can do is describe it. She was fine when my brother told her everyone was naked. She giggled. But the second he told her she was on the ceiling she absolutely freaked out, kicking her legs and screaming. I'm sorry, my 14 yr old friend wasn't that sophisticated to have done that purposefully. But...

I get all that, I'm not one that accepts anecdotes that aren't systematically collected with controls for other variables either.

That's why I'm not relying on my observation as the evidence here that hypnosis is real in susceptible people.

What I'm saying is what I saw convinced me. That's why when people dismiss hypnosis with a hand-wave and tell everyone about Penn & Teller's BS episode, I am not convinced by that 'testimony'.

I don't expect my anecdote to convince anyone else.

So I looked for more evidence and I found some. People here want to hand-wave that away too, and instead of looking at the research with an open mind, they find ways to dismiss the evidence as invalid. It's pretty hard to fake an fMRI and an EEG.

If you (or anyone else) decides to reevaluate the evidence, keep two things in mind. Only some people are susceptible, and using hypnosis for whatever outcome is being looked at (like smoking cessation for example) is simply not the same thing as verifying that some people can be hypnotically induced to hallucinate.

Using hypnosis therapeutically is doomed to fail since only a few people are susceptible.

Bolding mine. You think a 14 year old girl couldn't play act / attention seek / get swept along in the moment? Seriously? That's about peak demographic isn't it? I thought better of you...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Bolding mine. You think a 14 year old girl couldn't play act / attention seek / get swept along in the moment? Seriously? That's about peak demographic isn't it? I thought better of you...

I do believe I have answered this more than once already.

She freaked out, faking it makes zero sense.

Aaaand, I don't expect or care if anyone believes me. If you have an issue, you should address the research, not my anecdote.

Oh, and "you thought better of me?" Seriously, if I don't agree with your dismissal of what I saw, you have to add an insult? As if that adds anything to this discussion?

Yeah.. No.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

My own experiences - absolutely no effect on me and the two people 'affected' I called before the show started (both attention seekers) - cue some 'Children's Film Foundation' * standard acting...

*British people of a certain age will get that reference - worthy films shown in schools with child actors so wooden it was embarrassing to watch.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I do believe I have answered this more than once already.

She freaked out, faking it makes zero sense.

Aaaand, I don't expect or care if anyone believes me. If you have an issue, you should address the research, not my anecdote.

Why does faking it make zero sense? A 14 year old given permission to act out? Inevitable I'd say, so yes, I dismiss your anecdote but out of respect for your usual standard of posting, I will check the research....

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Why does faking it make zero sense? A 14 year old given permission to act out? Inevitable I'd say, so yes, I dismiss your anecdote but out of respect for your usual standard of posting, I will check the research....

Has it dawned on you you might be wrong?

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Has it dawned on you you might be wrong?

Of course. Which is why I said I'd check the research you posted.

Has it occurred to you that your anecdote is as flimsy as those you often call out when they relate to mediums etc. Plus if we're talking about many years ago (assuming you were the same age as your friend when it happened) then you will be well aware that you cannot even trust your memory of what happened, which will have undoubtedly morphed to be more exciting over time and repeated tellings.

If you had read these posts made by somebody else you'd be equally sceptical / scathing and trying to find scientific support however loosely related and then joining imaginary dots to make it connected is typical woo behaviour.

As I said though, I will take a closer look - especially at the colour perception one as that looks interesting in its own right.

 

[Elaedith]

It's hard to find studies that looked specifically for objective changes in the hypnotic state, no surprise given the limited therapeutic value of hypnosis But here are 2 more, nether has the full article available free:

Actually the first of these is available for free, although I don't think these are the best articles and they are both old. Given the high levels of recent interest in hypnosis as a tool for investigating the nature of consciousness, even an article published 10 years ago is outdated.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2be7/c29f20ff8547d12b0cfd09042528111ff1f5.pdf


I would suggest that anyone interested in evidence follows these simple steps:

Go to scholar.google.com

Type 'brain correlates hypnosis' (or whatever aspect interests you).

Narrow down the search to articles published in the last 5 years or so. There have been some recent review articles that try to pull together contradictory findings.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Of course. Which is why I said I'd check the research you posted.

Has it occurred to you that your anecdote is as flimsy as those you often call out when they relate to mediums etc.....

No because it's my anecdote, I was there.

The rest of you on the other hand can just not believe it. It's up to you. Your argument isn't made stronger by insulting me.

I know what I saw, I think the rest of you are wrong, and there's evidence supporting what I saw.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Actually the first of these is available for free, although I don't think these are the best articles and they are both old. Given the high levels of recent interest in hypnosis as a tool for investigating the nature of consciousness, even an article published 10 years ago is outdated.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/2be7/c29f20ff8547d12b0cfd09042528111ff1f5.pdf

I would suggest that anyone interested in evidence follows these simple steps:

Go to scholar.google.com

Type 'brain correlates hypnosis' (or whatever aspect interests you).

Narrow down the search to articles published in the last 5 years or so. There have been some recent review articles that try to pull together contradictory findings.

From your link:

Results: The group analysis showed that hypnotic state is related to the activation of a widespread, mainly leftsided,
set of cortical areas involving occipital, parietal, precentral, premotor, and ventrolateral prefrontal cortices and a few right-sided regions: occipital and anterior cingulate cortices.

Conclusions: The pattern of activation during hypnotic state differs from those induced in normal subjects by the simple evocation of autobiographical memories. It shares many similarities with mental imagery, from which it differs by the relative deactivation of precuneus. Biol-Psychiatry 1999;45:327–333 © 1999 Society of Biological Psychiatry

I'll say it again, my friend freaked out, there is zero chance she was faking it or acting the way she was expected to act. None of us expected what happened.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

No because it's my anecdote, I was there.

The rest of you on the other hand can just not believe it. It's up to you. Your argument isn't made stronger by insulting me.

I know what I saw, I think the rest of you are wrong, and there's evidence supporting what I saw.

I don't believe I was insulting - disagreeing is not insulting. TBH you insult yourself with statements like 'I know what I saw' on an anecdote from many years ago.

Anyway, I don't wish to cause offence so will bow out here with one final plea for you to look at your postings as if they were made by someone else. You may then realise why others are sceptical. This is really not like you at all...

As stated, I will look at the evidence you posted but will no longer engage on your very unconvincing anecdote.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

But you weren't on the ceiling either. Why is your opinion of what a 'natural reaction' to this would be better than anyone else's?

All this analysis, have at it. My friend freaked out. I don't need to analyze it, I was there.

She was not 'going along' or whatever is the current fad of dismissing hypnosis is because Penn and Teller said so.

But like I said, my experience is why I know hypnosis is real. I don't expect anyone else to use my anecdote as sufficient evidence. Look at the studies I posted. Brain changes are objectively measured. People can be hypnotized to hallucinate.

Don't believe it. Dismiss it because that is the current fad.

I saw it, it wasn't fake, and the research confirms it.

There's no need to be so defensive, and your response does not in any way answer my question.
If you are going to dismiss someone else's expectation of what a natural response to believing you are on the ceiling because they weren't there, then you have to explain why your expectation cannot be dismissed in the same way.
How are they different?

 

[Senex]

Narrow down the search to articles published in the last 5 years or so. There have been some recent review articles that try to pull together contradictory findings.

Recent reviewed articles? These guys today are as bat **** crazy as the guys a hundred years ago. Nothing has been discovered in the last five years regarding hypnosis. It's not like how rocket science has moved forward. Your weed surpasses mine. It's WOO!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There's no need to be so defensive, and your response does not in any way answer my question.
If you are going to dismiss someone else's expectation of what a natural response to believing you are on the ceiling because they weren't there, then you have to explain why your expectation cannot be dismissed in the same way.
How are they different?

You are mistaking indifference with defensiveness. I'm not annoyed, and I have no reason to be defensive, I have no need for my anecdote be believed. I've said that a number of times.

It seems however, that more than one person in this thread is annoyed I'm not buying the offered versions. You guys are coming up with any number of things to explain something you didn't see.

That makes sense if you are explaining a noise or an inanimate object moving, whatever. Here though, you are essentially imagining a different scenario than actually occurred, then expecting me to say, 'could be' or something like that.

Sorry, I was there. It was not made up, she freaked out, and that freaked the rest of us out, one of those unforgettable things in one's life.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't believe I was insulting -

I quoted the insult:

Bolding mine. You think a 14 year old girl couldn't play act / attention seek / get swept along in the moment? Seriously? That's about peak demographic isn't it? I thought better of you...

You added another one:

...disagreeing is not insulting. TBH you insult yourself with statements like 'I know what I saw' on an anecdote from many years ago. ...

I bolded your straw man in case I didn't make that clear earlier.

The bottom line, I don't care that people don't believe my anecdote. It happened, I was there, I saw it, it wasn't faked.

No one here is under any obligation to believe my anecdote. Just don't expect me to agree there could be other explanations.

There is evidence that supports hallucinations can be induced with hypnosis in some people and I observed it happen.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I quoted the insult:



You added another one:


I bolded your straw man in case I didn't make that clear earlier.

The bottom line, I don't care that people don't believe my anecdote. It happened, I was there, I saw it, it wasn't faked.

No one here is under any obligation to believe my anecdote. Just don't expect me to agree there could be other explanations.

There is evidence that supports hallucinations can be induced with hypnosis in some people and I observed it happen.

You say you're not defensive and yet interpret my expression of respect for your other posts as an insult because I opine that this doesn't match your usual sceptical rigour. I would say I thought you were better than that but you'd presumably consider that insulting as well.

The second comment was a response to your, IMHO, unwarranted aggrievement.

Whatever. As with so many people, and I'm probably one of them, your sceptical approach breaks down when it's something you feel emotionally attached to.

Your insistence in the absolute accuracy of your recall of a long ago event and your steadfast belief in the inerrant nature of your judgement of someone else's emotional state during said long ago event shows you are too emotionally invested in it to debate it rationally - as further evidenced by your insistence that you don't care what anyone else says / believes because you know, with absolute certainty what you saw and your interpretation of your friends emotional state can't possibly be wrong - and this when you were presumably a young teenager, not some, I don't know, trained psychologist or something (even then it would be far from a certain diagnosis having been done in the heat of the moment)

When challenged on the latter, you seem to claim that interpreting someone's emotional state is somehow a more certain activity than witnessing an object move when the former by its nature has to involve some subjective judgement, which is quite bizarre.

You must have read, or even taken part in, threads on here about the malleability of memory and yet you resort to the usual defence of the woo Meister in that, unlike the rest of the human race, your recall, in this specific instance at least, is perfect. It just doesn't wash and you would not accept it from anyone else.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You say you're not defensive and yet interpret my expression of respect for your other posts as an insult

As with so many people, and I'm probably one of them, your sceptical approach breaks down when it's something you feel emotionally attached to.

I'm not emotionally attached. I know what I saw, how is that emotional?

Your insistence in the absolute accuracy of your recall of a long ago event and your steadfast belief in the inerrant nature of your judgement of someone else's emotional state during said long ago event shows you are too emotionally invested in it to debate it rationally - as further evidenced by your insistence that you don't care what anyone else says / believes because you know, with absolute certainty what you saw and your interpretation of your friends emotional state can't possibly be wrong - and this when you were presumably a young teenager, not some, I don't know, trained psychologist or something (even then it would be far from a certain diagnosis having been done in the heat of the moment)

When challenged on the latter, you seem to claim that interpreting someone's emotional state is somehow a more certain activity than witnessing an object move when the former by its nature has to involve some subjective judgement, which is quite bizarre.

You must have read, or even taken part in, threads on here about the malleability of memory and yet you resort to the usual defence of the woo Meister in that, unlike the rest of the human race, your recall, in this specific instance at least, is perfect. It just doesn't wash and you would not accept it from anyone else.

You could have just said you don't believe me. ... for reasons.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

OK, I have read the 'perceived colours' study now. My initial impressions should be taken with a large pinch of salt as a) I only read it quickly and b) it's not my area of science. My immediate concerns however would be with the size of the study ( two people only, both supposedly very highly 'hypnotizable') and that they gave completely opposite results to each other so I'm unclear how that proved anything. Yes there seemed to be something going on in terms of brain signals but it's not immediately obvious to me (could be my ignorance) that that means hypnosis is responsible - for instance it seems they were asked to count in the hypnotised test but not the baseline so you already have a point of difference.

So, colour me unconvinced. Don't get me wrong, I am open to the idea that various stimulus can get the brain to interpret things differently (there are enough established optical illusions that can be affected or flipped by suggestion after all) but I would need a lot of convincing to stretch that to the type of mind control (eg you are now on the ceiling) claimed in hypnosis shows and the like. Oh I can see people imagining their friends are naked and giggling at the idea or acting out on it - that is different from them actually being controlled to really see / believe that.

 

[Ethan Thane Athen]

I'm not emotionally attached. I know what I saw, how is that emotional?



You could have just said you don't believe me. ... for reasons.

Oh I believe you believe it - your recall and interpretation may even be as accurate as you think. I just don't think that's a given (or even that likely) based on what we know about memory and how it works, the difficulty in knowing what someone else really thinks, your age and inexperience at the time, your friends age, the time passed and the fact it makes a great story.