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How to Analyze Cryptid Assertions

Bigfoots confuse me.

They are known to be super elusive, yet when you do catch one on camera like Patterson or Freeman, they move with all the agility of a septuagenarian mall walker.

Bigfoots are extremely shy of human contact, except of course when bigfoot “researchers” head into the field looking for them. Then they’re prone to visiting campfires at night, tossing random items into campsites, snapping full grown trees in half as warning displays, etc.

I think we can actually write off the idea that they can detect cameras now though, what with all the imagery floating around. It’s actually much more sophisticated than that. They can actually detect cameras with malfunctioning auto-focus mechanisms and FLIRs with faulty record buttons.


Right on. Especially about the Freeman video. In broad daylight, with Freeman huffing and puffing only a few yards away, his sasquatch looked like Orson Welles in a fur coat looking for daisies to pick.
 
This strikes me as incredibly naive or just straight up silliness. It also strikes me as a desire to believe in the unbelievable, bigfoot. I can walk out my back door right now, and within 150 yards find numerous "stick structures". Branches break and fall all the time, all on their own accord. And the wind helps with that process, as does temperature and humidity. Limbs break, fall and pile up. It's a completely natural process, and for all the decades that I have been seeing this stuff, never have I attributed it to some higher mentality causing it to happen. I have never thought that bigfoot or anything else had done the arranging. More than that, it cracks me up that anyone even has labeled the random, natural piling of branches as "stick structures". What an absolutely stupid term. What an absolutely stupid straw to grasp at to try to make bigfoots real. Having gone into the woods on occasion and never having seen branches piled up, well, too bad for you, dod didn't see a bigfoot nest, or road marker, or baby cage, or whatever else you might want to consider them as. But I have them on my own property, I have seen with my own eyes as the branches fall and pile up. You could say that I have seen "stick structures" as they were actually being "made". I didn't see any bigfoots making them, so maybe they were cloaked while doing their handiwork, eh? :-)

I have no desire to believe in Bigfoot. I was referring to specific phenomena that is reported by Bigfooters. I haven't seen for myself such "structures" while in the woods. I'm not talking about tree falls or limb breaks necessarily, but limbs that seem placed in certain positions and not just in makeshift shelters. I have in mind limbs apparently placed in specific crossing patterns.

Like this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-R6yJaEsWyQo/UNKFPR7JgyI/AAAAAAAADyE/shKaKvX-TNY/s1600/page163.jpg

http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/10/23383000/ngbbs4e975d1b9e3a4.jpg



Of coarse I do not believe this type of phenomena is related to giant bipedal apes. But this is the type of "evidence" Bigfooters use to persuade themselves that a particular area is squatchy.

Cervelo and Shrike have covered other tree related natural events and scout related shelters. But what is the purpose of the above cluster of limbs? Hoax, forest ranger related, scouts, old deer blinds, what?
 
But what is the purpose of the above cluster of limbs? Hoax, forest ranger related, scouts, old deer blinds, what?

This is why some think you're playing games, jerry. The top photo looks like it could be a natural formation, the bottom one looks like somebody did it on purpose. So what? People do stuff like this all the time. The fact that we might not know its exact purpose doesn't effect the interpretation in the slightest.

We know that humans make stick structures and we know that windfall and idiosyncrasies of tree growth can create patterns that people interpret as stick structures. That's it. End of story. Until one person can demonstrate that one such structure was made by such a thing as a bigfoot, it is NOT incumbent on anyone else to demonstrate how every other stick structure in the world was made.
 
Ok, let's go down this road. How would someone hoax me? It was a heat signature, extending over the top of trees that topped out at 8 feet and lasted for 15 minutes, in the back woods of northern Minnesota. Please, give me an explanation of how someone would come up with something that fits those details.



A hoax isn't even required to fit the bill, though it probably was. Your subject appeared, followed a trail to your campsite, where others where playing flute music and presumably other amusing stuff. Then the subject returned using the same trail and left the area. Why the hell didn't you do anything? Approach Bigfoot and say "Hey, Sassy... how's it hanging?" Why did you remain inconspicuous and allow the 9 foot monter wood ape prowl the campsite without warning your camp mates?

It was just some dude checking out the weirdos, or it was a fellow footer hoaxing the hell out of you. What's more likely... some guy was checking you guys out, or, Bigfoot was getting his perv on? Your distance and height estimates are suspect at best and you know it.
 
Give me a plausible explanation for seeing a heat signature through a thermal for 15 minutes that was over 8 feet tall, going through thick forest without a light source, and I'll listen. So far, the only thing anyone has said is I'm lying. Well, I'm not lying and I'm not pretending.

Until you've had the same experience I've had, or until someone puts up a specimen, you and all of your cohorts here will not accept what I know, and that's fine. I have no aspirations to turning you to the dark side.
An unusual "heat signature" huh? Really? What's a "heat signature"? And because it was 8 feet tall (you say), it couldn't have been a 6'6" tall man with headgear (say) because, well, 8 feet? Whose tape measure did you use and are you sure it wasn't centimeters and not inches? So sure that you're willing to create an entirely new species of primate out of thin air because of it since you can't "visualize" where an imaginary (leftover?) 12 inches in your "heat signature" could have come from?

"Well you see Fred if it had been a 7'5" heat sig - that's short for heat signature - maybe even a 7'6"er, I could buy it as a tall man with some kind of cranial apparatus, but 8 feet? No way Fred! That's just too tall for a man and why would a man be there anyway? Even though, umm, I'm a man and was also there. And thus and thus and so it's a new species of ape. See how simple that is Fred? Who said this science stuff was so hard? <heehee> Fred?"

And why don't you care about turning us to "the dark side" if that's where the real party's at? We're all about the real here. Is it because we have difficulty believing nutrageous claims that have zero evidence? It's so unfair huh?!

In his original version NL was quite certain as to the height of the creature he saw through the low-resolution viewfinder of the handed off thermal camera because he went and investigated the area the next day. He very likely saw another human being, and as you suggest, turned it into his preferred quarry, letting good ole cognitive, memory and confirming biases do their job.

He of course insists he couldn't be wrong about any of the timeline, distances or height guesses measurements. If the incident happened at all, I think he misjudged all of the above, and perhaps playfulness of his fellow enthusiasts.
Hey if he says its an unknown species of huge hairy ape, it's an unknown species of huge hairy ape. Who are we really to say otherwise? He was there and saw it and he knows and we don't. We "skeptics" need to get over ourselves and stop this refusal to admit it exists because we...umm...why do we refuse to admit it exists? Oh right there's no evidence.
 
No, the thermal I was using was really old and the quality was quite poor. I would say it's probably ten years old, maybe more.
It's weird that you watched it for 15 minutes as it walked around and you only saw the head but not the body. It walked 200 yards and yet you never saw the thermal glow of the body. The entire time the only thing visible was the head above the foliage. The foliage concealed the body's thermal signature.

Based on the height of the foliage, you estimated the Bigfoot to be 9 foot tall.
 
I'm not so sure Meldrum is quite all in with Standing just yet. But even if he is, I still think you are short-changing the True Believer aspect of it. True Believers believe all kinds of things not cogent to non-True Believers. Even scientists (see Duane Gish).

I have gone to the woods on many occasions. I've looked around, if I remembered to, to see if I could find dead or detached tree limbs in odd, apparently placed positions. And old deer blinds. No luck. I've looked up Scouting sites on the web and have found photos of makeshift shelters, but nothing like the things Bigfooters claim are Bigfoot related. We are assuming the answers are there. I just haven't seen anything definitive.

I see those "stick-structures" in ragtag woodland in England all the time, it's scouts, kids in general, or it's totally random. Either that, or Nick Redfern is right, and 'Squatch is spreading his magic in Blighty as we speak.
 
Thanks Shrike. Most of the photos are right on. I did a google search previously but I must have not known where to look. I assumed that such "structures" were human artifacts or natural, but couldn't quite find the convincing evidence/info. Thanks.

As to the other issues, I'm not convinced. Pointing out ape suits in early cinema is not the same as producing a Patterson sasquatch. We assume it was easily done (and it probably was), so why haven't skeptics with appropriate talent produced virtually the same thing. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I'm saying that no one has bothered to put this thing to an end by producing virtually the same thing on film. The closest I've seen is Blevins' attempt, but he blew it by not recreating the setting.

I add that there is an amount of subjectivity in this specific topic. I grew up watching horror movies in the 50s. That was my thing. I've never seen an ape costume on film that looked real. The reason the Patterson film is still The Thing with Bigfooters is that it does achieve a certain naked realism. If it didn't, it would be in the bin with Ivan Marx's Bigfoot and a host of wannabe Bigfoot films.

As to the tracks, notice I wrote "trackways," not an individual track. Again, we are assuming it is easy to do, and we are probably right. So why haven't we produced hundreds of tracks in line virtually duplicating what is claimed to be Bigfoot trackways? Are we assuming that there is a special, clever trick that can't be duplicated?

What utter bollocks! The reason no'one has specifically gone out and tried to reproduce Patty is because they feel absolutely no inclination to. Why would they? It's an obvious costume, and the footage itself is obviously not good enough to give any real suit-maker a hope-in-hell of accurately recreating anything from it.

We know that Chewbacca was a costume, but I couldn't go out and soundly reproduce it just by watching Star Wars, and anyone expecting me to would be a few clowns short of the full circus. People reproduce such costumes with the aide of notes from the original artist, detailed examples etc... we have none of this with re: to Patty, for obvious reasons.

We know enough from what we've seen of previous ape-suits that Roger Patterson's Bigfoot wasn't any more mindblowing than something Charles Gemora could've come up with. To claim that anyone need recreate Patty just as Roger had created "her" is hilariously nonsensical.
 
Give me a plausible explanation for seeing a heat signature through a thermal for 15 minutes that was over 8 feet tall, going through thick forest without a light source, and I'll listen. So far, the only thing anyone has said is I'm lying. Well, I'm not lying and I'm not pretending.

Until you've had the same experience I've had, or until someone puts up a specimen, you and all of your cohorts here will not accept what I know, and that's fine. I have no aspirations to turning you to the dark side.

Give me a plausible explanation for why you told us that you couldn't send your "Bigfoot audio recording" to an expert because you never knew anyone who had any expertise in wolves or how they behave/communicate, but 2 days later told us that not only had you sent the audio off to someone who knew all of the above, but that he'd soundly told you that what you had on tape couldn't have been a wolf or a bear.

Can you give me a plausible explanation for that particular segment of total bollocks?
 
That looks likes it's about 8 feet off the ground. How high up was that limb?

Here is what I would consider a blocking tree break. This trail was clear the weekend before we found this. No bad weather during the week either.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1149&pictureid=8892[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1149&pictureid=8891[/qimg]

where are the Bigfoot tracks that would be around the base of the tree if one was there?
 
It's weird that you watched it for 15 minutes as it walked around and you only saw the head but not the body. It walked 200 yards and yet you never saw the thermal glow of the body. The entire time the only thing visible was the head above the foliage. The foliage concealed the body's thermal signature.

Based on the height of the foliage, you estimated the Bigfoot to be 9 foot tall.



Yeah, that's really odd, to say the least. It would take a very particular set of conditions for that to happen over such a distance, which was never referenced in his account. Just... branches/foliage or whatnot. Huh? Even if local terrain from a particular spot allowed for this, why not... move and get a better viewing spot? Why not close the distance and find out what you were viewing? I think NL was frozen with fear. He got zapped with infrasound by Biggie. It's the only logical explanation.
 
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It was probably a Minnesota Quilled Bigfoot.
 

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What utter bollocks! The reason no'one has specifically gone out and tried to reproduce Patty is because they feel absolutely no inclination to. Why would they? It's an obvious costume, and the footage itself is obviously not good enough to give any real suit-maker a hope-in-hell of accurately recreating anything from it.

We know that Chewbacca was a costume, but I couldn't go out and soundly reproduce it just by watching Star Wars, and anyone expecting me to would be a few clowns short of the full circus. People reproduce such costumes with the aide of notes from the original artist, detailed examples etc... we have none of this with re: to Patty, for obvious reasons.

We know enough from what we've seen of previous ape-suits that Roger Patterson's Bigfoot wasn't any more mindblowing than something Charles Gemora could've come up with. To claim that anyone need recreate Patty just as Roger had created "her" is hilariously nonsensical.

Actually, I agree with you, up to a point.

We do not need to see Patterson's sasquatch reproduced, yes there are some analogies to cinema apes, and so forth. What I'm saying is the attitude and the approach you are using satisfies you and other skeptics but does nothing to pull Bigfooters out of their perpetual swoon over "Patty."

Patty long ago supplanted tracks as the prime reason Bigfooters, generally, believe Bigfoot are real. Enthusiasts are always prattling on and on about how no one has reproduced Patty and if a rodeo cowboy can do why haven't the skeptics done it too.

I'm saying someone ought to do it and remove one more plank from the Bigfoot myth as constituted by Bigfooters themselves, IF that is what skeptics are truly interested in doing.
 
This is why some think you're playing games, jerry. The top photo looks like it could be a natural formation, the bottom one looks like somebody did it on purpose. So what? People do stuff like this all the time. The fact that we might not know its exact purpose doesn't effect the interpretation in the slightest.

We know that humans make stick structures and we know that windfall and idiosyncrasies of tree growth can create patterns that people interpret as stick structures. That's it. End of story. Until one person can demonstrate that one such structure was made by such a thing as a bigfoot, it is NOT incumbent on anyone else to demonstrate how every other stick structure in the world was made.

See how this works. You've convinced yourself that Bigfooters are deceitful. Now any skeptic who has a different opinion, one that you find naïve or incorrect, is likewise deceitful.

Playing the "deceitful card" is becoming habitual.

You sound like a Bigfooter, in a way. When I would post at BFF about a known hoax, some enthusiast or another would invariably say something like, "well you've shown that this one sighting was a hoax. Good for you, now you have to prove ALL sightings are hoaxes." This is echoed negatively in your comment "it is NOT incumbent on anyone else to demonstrate how every other stick structure in the world was made." (You wrote this even after I said virtually the same thing, as if that was what I was asking for.)

If you reread my post, you will find that I'm asking for the purpose of such placements of limbs and such in wooded areas. Skeptics here are saying it is a very common circumstance to find in the woods. What's behind it?
 
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It's called reversing the burden of proof. It's very common in Bigfootery and is used early and often.

It's a dishonest argumentative tactic used to create a trap. Any or all possible explanations given by a skeptic can be rejected for any reason no matter how unreasonable that reason may be. The alternative explanations are rejected leaving Bigfoot as the preferred (and the only acceptable) remaining candidate.
 
What I'm saying is the attitude and the approach you are using satisfies you and other skeptics but does nothing to pull Bigfooters out of their perpetual swoon over "Patty."

That's the problem - nothing will pull Bigfooters who swoon over Patty out of that mindset. No matter how close the reproduction, it would never be good enough because it isn't exactly the same as Patty. It ties neatly into the 'you can't prove bigfoot doesn't exist' ploy believers toss out all the time.

I'm guessing skeptics will produce an exact Patty replica about the same time believers produce an actual bigfoot.

Enthusiasts are always prattling on and on about how no one has reproduced Patty and if a rodeo cowboy can do why haven't the skeptics done it too.
Yes, they make sure to mention he's only a rodeo cowboy, as though he's one saddle short of a single digit IQ. It's a thinly disguised argument from ignorance -- believers are astonished that a mere rodeo cowboy could be so creative and talented. I get the very same reaction from new people who see some of my daughter's artwork I have on display in my cubicle. Whaaat, she's only in high school???

2325496f60c41549.jpg


Yeah, and Roger was only a rodeo cowboy...

I'm saying someone ought to do it and remove one more plank from the Bigfoot myth as constituted by Bigfooters themselves, IF that is what skeptics are truly interested in doing.
What skeptics (at least this one) are truly interested in is the production of an actual bigfoot. I'd be on board again in a heartbeat. Until then, believers have nothing to crow about and skeptics have nothing to prove.

RayG
 

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