How much time do we really have?

[dafydd]

So in your mind dafydd, God should have waited until the invention of the "TV, monitor, radio,smart phone, tablet and cinema screens", before announcing his presence to creation? Makes sense.

It does. The technology exists. What is stopping him? Answers on a postcard please.

 

[dafydd]

Ooh, a red herring... That's not the question you asked, nor that he replied to. If God appeared on all communications media, dafydd would accept that as proof of its existence.

You give a straight answer to a straight question and see what happens.

 

[MikeG]

Lets first establish the criteria.

Absolutely anything at all. There is no need to limit it. Just anything that is testable, repeatable, and falsifiable. Worshippers (of all the myriad gods) have had thousands of years to provide such evidence and have nothing, so we await with interest your efforts........

I note your failure to respond to my previous post.

 

[Innocuous]

But you can't disprove God either.

There should be some sort of law (like Godwin's law) that can be invoked when someone uses the fallacy of "you can't prove false my unfalsiable assertion". It seems to get litigated over and over. Maybe a link to the Wikipedia entry on Russell's teapot would do. (I can't do that yet.) That is good but is not very concise.

Unfalsifiability isn't necessarily bad, and a lot of people do good work towards proving unfalsifiable claims, like someone trying to prove "there is a cure for this disease" by actually finding a cure. It isn't quite the same situation with conjectures about god - we have very strong evidence that some diseases can be cured and, so far, no evidence for claims about god. (I'm not sure if I had a cogent point there. )

 

[Brainache]

There should be some sort of law (like Godwin's law) that can be invoked when someone uses the fallacy of "you can't prove false my unfalsiable assertion". It seems to get litigated over and over. Maybe a link to the Wikipedia entry on Russell's teapot would do. (I can't do that yet.) That is good but is not very concise.

Unfalsifiability isn't necessarily bad, and a lot of people do good work towards proving unfalsifiable claims, like someone trying to prove "there is a cure for this disease" by actually finding a cure. It isn't quite the same situation with conjectures about god - we have very strong evidence that some diseases can be cured and, so far, no evidence for claims about god. (I'm not sure if I had a cogent point there. )

Welcome to the forum.

I think you made a cogent point, but opinions vary about me. I recommend a second opinion...

 

[tsig]

This has come up before. What evidence would you be willing to accept as proof of the existence of God?

God knows, I don't.

 

[Rincewind]

So I'm guessing that you are not willing to answer the question, "What evidence would you be willing to accept as proof for the existence of God?".

Dodge noted.

If there was clear, incontrovertible evidence for the existence of god, then that'd probably do it.

As long as the evidence couldn't possibly have any other origin.

In my youth, I was a member of the Presbyterian Church. I went regularly to services, and thought I believed it all. However, more recently I read a lot, visited many websites (both for and against) and came to realise that none of it made any sense, and the biblical stories were just that - fictional.

I realised that I was just following on with what my parents had been doing. In fact, in family discussions where I declared my atheism, my father admitted that he was too. He had joined in for my mother's sake.

Clear?

So - what've you got?

 

[TimCallahan]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan
Concerning the first hilited area: Why would this perfect God of yours have a desire to be worshipped?

Concerning the second hilited area: Why would your God, intending to create us to worship him, bother to create people he knew beforehand would not worship him?

Essentially what you are asking is why does God give people the choice? Good question, maybe he got tired of just having Angels who are kind of like robots (as understood in Islam), not having free will or choice. If people are forced to do things, the thing which they are doing is not really genuine or from the heart. We can use the concept of "Love" for example.

No, I'm not asking why this God you believe in would have given us free will. I'm asking why, if he has perfect foreknowledge, would he bother to create those who, of their own free will, would reject him. BTW, I still reject your premise that predestination of any sort is compatible with free will. If we are predestined by who we are, etc., to make certain decisions, then, regarding those issues we only have the illusion of free will.

As to angels lacking free will, that's a new concept to me. While I realize the jinn are not, technically angels, they seem to have free will. According to the Quran, Satan, also called Iblis, refused to bow down to Adam as ordered to by God. Apparently, he did this of his own free will. In Christianity, Satan is a fallen angel. BTW, why was God angered at the disobedience of Iblis, since, with his prefect foreknowledge God had to have already known that Iblis would indeed refuse to bow down to Adam and, in fact, knew this even as he created Iblis?

And why use the term "your God", we are talking of the God of the universe in which we both exist.

When I say "your God" I mean God as you, specifically and as a Muslim, perceive God. I also say "your God" because I honestly don't believe God exists.

 

[Donn]

A recap:

Maybe you look into this for yourself, although if I were you I would start with sincere repentance, and then begin to ask God for guidance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RePRTTrDVMk

Some talk of hell. Then:

And yes, just like an ant is essentially worthless/nothing when compared to any human. It is similar when we humans try and compare our selves to a perfect, all knowing, all powerful being, such as the creator of the universe, despite how unpleasant and harsh that may sound.

I try to tease out why your god would bother with us:

If we are so worthless, why would our worship be of any value.
If you say he loves us, then we do have value.
Which is it?

You don't like my use of 'love':

I never told you "God loves you".

.. which has little to do with where this started. I still don't know why Allah would bother with us. You say:

You can try and rationalize it however you like. I think that in the end God will let you know just how important you had been to him, as well as your true value in the grand scheme of things.

So, you advise we ask for repentance and guidance from your god who neither loves us nor particularly notices us.

I think I'm getting the hang of this.

We are all reliant on faith for insight into what takes place after we die. Are we not?

I don't need faith, I've seen maggots.

 

[mikeb768]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan
Concerning the first hilited area: Why would this perfect God of yours have a desire to be worshipped?

Concerning the second hilited area: Why would your God, intending to create us to worship him, bother to create people he knew beforehand would not worship him?

No, I'm not asking why this God you believe in would have given us free will. I'm asking why, if he has perfect foreknowledge, would he bother to create those who, of their own free will, would reject him. BTW, I still reject your premise that predestination of any sort is compatible with free will. If we are predestined by who we are, etc., to make certain decisions, then, regarding those issues we only have the illusion of free will.

As to angels lacking free will, that's a new concept to me. While I realize the jinn are not, technically angels, they seem to have free will. According to the Quran, Satan, also called Iblis, refused to bow down to Adam as ordered to by God. Apparently, he did this of his own free will. In Christianity, Satan is a fallen angel. BTW, why was God angered at the disobedience of Iblis, since, with his prefect foreknowledge God had to have already known that Iblis would indeed refuse to bow down to Adam and, in fact, knew this even as he created Iblis?

When I say "your God" I mean God as you, specifically and as a Muslim, perceive God. I also say "your God" because I honestly don't believe God exists.

Why does God desire worship? Maybe it is because God created each of us, and everything in the known universe, and therefore is worthy of praise? Maybe you will get the chance to ask him in the case you ever meet God?

Regarding your other question, "I'm asking why, if he has perfect foreknowledge, would he bother to create those who, of their own free will, would reject him." God states the following: [Quran 16:93] "If God so willed, He could make you all one religion: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions." Maybe there is some wisdom behind God's seeming decision to allow diversity? God knows best.

Also people who choose to reject God does not harm him in the least. It is a big myth that God needs us or that God needs our worship. God reminds us that it is we who need God. So people can reject all they want it makes no difference, in the end people will have only harmed themselves/diminished their own reward.

Imo it is a difficult position to defend, actively using your free will to argue against the existence of God, and at the same time arguing you have no free will. It seems a nonsensical argument. The only way the concept of free will is an "illusion" has any meaning, is if we are able to determine that life is only an illusion. Although there seem to be quite a number Quantum Physicists as of recently who are claiming just that. Maybe there is some truth to the idea? I don't know. Are things such as free will and even time only an illusion? I believe that I'm acting of my own free will, but can this be proven?

Quantum Mechanics Documentary on Determinism vs Free Will
The Illusion of Time, The Illusion of Time 2

God was not "angry" from my recollection, when Satan refused to bow down. In fact he approved Satan's request immediately after Satan's disobedience.

And I still disagree with the usage of the term "your God". There can only be one.

 

[dafydd]

And I still disagree with the usage of the term "your God". There can only be one.

Millions of Hindus believe that their gods exist. Why are they wrong and Christians right?

 

[dlorde]

... I still disagree with the usage of the term "your God". There can only be one.

"There can only be one" - that's Highlander isn't it?

 

[mikeb768]

Staying completely ON topic, that last post makes me think of one of my all time favorite movies.

Is what appears to us as free will, really "Fate"? Maybe we all have "A Date with Destiny".

 

[mikeb768]

"There can only be one" - that's Highlander isn't it?

Jet Li actually.

 

[dafydd]

God reminds us that it is we who need God.

Why? I don't need an imaginary being in my life. Kindly speak for yourself.

 

[dafydd]

Staying completely ON topic, that last post makes me think of one of my all time favorite movies.

Fiction. How appropriate.

 

[dlorde]

Imo it is a difficult position to defend, actively using your free will to argue against the existence of God, and at the same time arguing you have no free will. It seems a nonsensical argument. The only way the concept of free will is an "illusion" has any meaning, is if we are able to determine that life is only an illusion.

No; what it means is that our decisions and choices are determined by how we feel at the time. How we feel at the time is determined by our state of mind at the time, which is, in turn, determined by the interaction of our genetic inheritance with a lifetime of experience and reflection leading up to that moment, i.e. what makes us the person we are in the circumstances we are in.

Libertarian free will is an illusion because it's simply not a coherent concept; it's a label of social convenience to cover our ignorance of all the complex determinants of our actions and their results, and the consequent tendency to treat our internal state as external to the context. This lack of omniscience regarding our context and its future means that even in a wholly deterministic universe we'd be obliged to act as if we had free will. For example, when pressed about free will many people say it's the capability to make a decision or choice according to how they feel. Well how they feel is part of the context. How they feel is determined by the influences described above. To say that if their state of mind was different they could/would/might make a different choice is tautologous - it reduces to 'if things were different, things would be different'.

Free will has a darker role as the justification for the attribution of moral responsibility and blame, but that's another story...

 

[dlorde]

Is what appears to us as free will, really "Fate"? Maybe we all have "A Date with Destiny".

Fatalism is not determinism...

 

[MikeG]

I note your failure to respond to my previous post.

I note your ongoing failure to respond, 2 days on.

 

[abaddon]

Why does God desire worship? Maybe it is because God created each of us, and everything in the known universe, and therefore is worthy of praise?

Did he do that? In that case, what a cack handed designer.

Maybe you will get the chance to ask him in the case you ever meet God?

Doesn't exist so not going to happen.

Regarding your other question, "I'm asking why, if he has perfect foreknowledge, would he bother to create those who, of their own free will, would reject him." God states the following: [Quran 16:93] "If God so willed, He could make you all one religion: But He leaves straying whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions." Maybe there is some wisdom behind God's seeming decision to allow diversity? God knows best.

Oh, great. A non-answer answer. You are claiming now that your god makes atheists be atheists just "because".

Also people who choose to reject God does not harm him in the least. It is a big myth that God needs us or that God needs our worship. God reminds us that it is we who need God. So people can reject all they want it makes no difference, in the end people will have only harmed themselves/diminished their own reward.

It is not possible to harm a figment.

Imo it is a difficult position to defend, actively using your free will to argue against the existence of God, and at the same time arguing you have no free will. It seems a nonsensical argument. The only way the concept of free will is an "illusion" has any meaning, is if we are able to determine that life is only an illusion. Although there seem to be quite a number Quantum Physicists as of recently who are claiming just that. Maybe there is some truth to the idea? I don't know. Are things such as free will and even time only an illusion? I believe that I'm acting of my own free will, but can this be proven?
Quantum Mechanics Documentary on Determinism vs Free Will
The Illusion of Time, The Illusion of Time 2

Hail the glorious strawman that you made up.

God was not "angry" from my recollection, when Satan refused to bow down. In fact he approved Satan's request immediately after Satan's disobedience.

You are indeed correct. According to your big book of fairy tales, your god was the obsequious grovelling liar, while satan was the honest broker.

Of course, it's all rubbish, but your inability to tell one from the other in your own fairy tale is telling.

And I still disagree with the usage of the term "your God". There can only be one.

Why? It IS your god. It's not mine, nor anyone elses here, it's yours and yours alone. Why are you ashamed of your god? Why are you attempting to distance yourself from your god? What do your holey books say about such behaviour?