How much time do we really have?

[Donn]

I never told you "God loves you".

Very well, I'd agree: Allah does not love us. (He does not exist.)

That startling fact aside, we are still of worth to it, for why all the fuss? You don't make ants walk in a line if you don't factor the ants in somewhere.

 

[mikeb768]

This is my opinion (which I think is well supported) for why God created mankind. Firstly to worship him, but also to share his bounty, as in Paradise. God being all knowing already knows what choices each individual will make. So then some may ask "Couldn't God, who already knows what actions people would take and already knowing their ultimate fate, just go ahead and place them into either Heaven or Hell?". Well he could, but that would be quite unjust no doubt. To reward or punish someone for something which they have not yet done?

So rather than skipping straight to Stage 3, stages 1 and 2 allow for people to experience life and to make choices (to have free will) which they are then held accountable for.


[Click on the image again after
opening, for a more clear picture]

STAGE 1
[+] Can life be understood as a Gift? Sure, if we consider the fact that any one of us gets to be here in the first place.
[+] Many would agree that life is a test, each and every day we are faced with choices, some of which can have very immediate and even very lasting implications.
[+] Is life also an Experiment?

STAGE 2
[+] If God exists there would have to be a Day of Judgement, the logic and justice behind such an event.
[+] What Happens on Day of Judgement?, When The Books Descend
[+] If life is an Experiment, it is not one which is true to the sense of the expression. Although we have free will, Muslims understand that fate and God's omniscience also play a role. Predestination in Islam

STAGE 3
We know that Adam the first of Mankind started off in Paradise. Many also believe that even though it is commonly understood that Heaven and Hell are forever, Hell will at some point also come to an end. So based on these two things I believe that all of creation was ultimately meant to end up in Paradise.
[+] Heaven (Paradise) = Ultimate peace, pleasure, ultimate reward and varying levels of closeness to God.
[+] Hell = Punishment, justice, payment for ones sins and distance from God and his bounty. A Few Days in Hell (Some believe only Muslims will be rescued from Hell after a period, while others will remain for eternity).
[+] The Last Person to Leave Hellfire

*As I mentioned before, I believe that eventually everyone will make it into Paradise, but the level of heaven, and individual's rank, and overall reward within heaven will vary. I believe that people who choose to deny God are placing themselves into a position to receive God's wrath and they are also diminishing their ultimate reward, which at some point due to God's mercy they will also receive. Although God knows best.

[Quran 84:19]
"Ye shall surely travel from stage to stage."

[Quran 90:10-20]

 

[Craig B]

*As I mentioned before, I believe that eventually everyone will make it into Paradise ...

This would not appear to be universally accepted by Muslims.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen was asked: Is Hell eternal or will it come to an end?

He replied:

What is definite is that it is eternal, and no other view is known among the salaf. Hence the scholars made this one of their tenets of faith, so that we believe that Hell is eternal and will last forever. This is a matter concerning which there is no doubt, because Allaah has mentioned the eternal nature of Hell in three places in the Qur’aan:

1 – In Soorat al-Nisa, where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, those who disbelieve and did wrong [by concealing the truth about Prophet Muhammad and his message of true Islamic Monotheism written in the Tawraatt (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) with them]; Allaah will not forgive them, nor will He guide them to any way.

Except the way of Hell, to dwell therein forever”

[al-Nisa’ 4:168-169]

2 – In Soorat al-Ahzaab, where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, Allaah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire (Hell)

Wherein they will abide for ever”

[al-Ahzaab 33:64]

3 – In Soorat al-Jinn, where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“and whosoever disobeys Allaah and His Messenger, then verily, for him is the fire of Hell, he shall dwell therein forever”

[al-Jinn 72:23]

If Allaah had mentioned the eternal nature of Hell in one place, that would have been sufficient, so how about if He has mentioned it in three places? It is strange that a group of scholars are of the view that Hell will cease to exist, based on false arguments which go against what is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and they misinterpreted the meanings of the Qur’aan and Sunnah and said that the words “dwell therein forever” mean for as long as it exists.

http://islamqa.info/en/45804
I think Muslims, like Christians, need to sort this important issue out among themselves before preaching the horrid doctrine of Hell to others.

 

[abaddon]

This is my opinion (which I think is well supported) for why God created mankind.

i.e. not supported at all by anything

Firstly to worship him,

Because he really is that insecure that he needs worshipers.

but also to share his bounty, as in Paradise.

So create perfect worshippers then. Why not? Could he not have done so being omnipotent?

God being all knowing already knows what choices each individual will make. So then some may ask "Couldn't God, who already knows what actions people would take and already knowing their ultimate fate, just go ahead and place them into either Heaven or Hell?". Well he could, but that would be quite unjust no doubt.

If he knows ahead of time who should or should not be punished then it cannot be unjust by definition.

To reward or punish someone for something which they have not yet done?

Your god goes a step further an forces people to do things and punishes them for it.

So rather than skipping straight to Stage 3, stages 1 and 2 allow for people to experience life and to make choices (to have free will) which they are then held accountable for.

Sorry but there is no free will involved at all if the outcome of every action if known and each action itself is known and each decision is known and if every thought is known by your omnipotent beast.

[qimg]http://s27.postimg.org/kd2c53vov/Life.jpg[/qimg]
[Click on the image again after
opening, for a more clear picture]

What a useless graphic.

STAGE 1
[+] Can life be understood as a Gift? Sure, if we consider the fact that any one of us gets to be here in the first place.
[+] Many would agree that life is a test, each and every day we are faced with choices, some of which can have very immediate and even very lasting implications.
[+] Is life also an Experiment?

No.

STAGE 2
[+] If God exists there would have to be a Day of Judgement, the logic and justice behind such an event.
[+] What Happens on Day of Judgement?, When The Books Descend

Non-sequitur. If some god exists, there may or may not be a day of judgement. Some religious cults say yes, some say no. Some say there is a hell, some say we all end up in heaven. And all variations between. They all have one thing in common, that is precisely zero evidence of any of their supernatural claims. Just like your claims. So how do you know that your particular superstitious belief is the correct one?

[+] If life is an Experiment, it is not one which is true to the sense of the expression. Although we have free will, Muslims understand that fate and God's omniscience also play a role. Predestination in Islam

Nope. An omniscient god of any flavour obviates "free will".

STAGE 3
We know that Adam the first of Mankind started off in Paradise.

No, we don't.

Many also believe that even though it is commonly understood that Heaven and Hell are forever, Hell will at some point also come to an end. So based on these two things I believe that all of creation was ultimately meant to end up in Paradise.
[+] Heaven (Paradise) = Ultimate peace, pleasure, ultimate reward and varying levels of closeness to God.
[+] Hell = Punishment, justice, payment for ones sins and distance from God and his bounty. A Few Days in Hell (Some believe only Muslims will be rescued from Hell after a period, while others will remain for eternity).
[+] The Last Person to Leave Hellfire

*As I mentioned before, I believe that eventually everyone will make it into Paradise, but the level of heaven, and individual's rank, and overall reward within heaven will vary. I believe that people who choose to deny God are placing themselves into a position to receive God's wrath and they are also diminishing their ultimate reward, which at some point due to God's mercy they will also receive. Although God knows best.

All I can say to that assemblage of misguided baloney is that if it were true, I would create hell myself, and your god would be first on the perma-ban list.

[Quran 84:19]
"Ye shall surely travel from stage to stage."

[Quran 90:10-20]

[/QUOTE]Alternate interpretation: When travelling by stage coach, it was common to switch to a fresh stage coach when the horses were tired, hence "travel from stage to stage". This is far more consistent with the technology of the time the quran was written.

Prove me wrong.

 

[Donn]

This is my opinion (which I think is well supported) for why God created mankind.

Opinions are fine, but they only go so far.

Firstly to worship him,

Therefore we are important to him. So, not ants.

but also to share his bounty, as in Paradise.

Again, importance. To. Him.

Q.E.D

 

[mikeb768]

abaddon, you are effectively using your free will as we speak, are you not? Or is someone forcing you to behave in a particular manner? Do you currently reside within North Korea? Please let us know, maybe we can help.

 

[mikeb768]

This would not appear to be universally accepted by Muslims. http://islamqa.info/en/45804
I think Muslims, like Christians, need to sort this important issue out among themselves before preaching the horrid doctrine of Hell to others.

Which portion do you believe to not be universally accepted? People can choose whether to believe the warnings or not (freewill), so not really much to sort out.

 

[mikeb768]

Opinions are fine, but they only go so far.


Therefore we are important to him. So, not ants.


Again, importance. To. Him.

Q.E.D

You can try and rationalize it however you like. I think that in the end God will let you know just how important you had been to him, as well as your true value in the grand scheme of things. We all must cross over to Stage 2 at some point, no one escapes death.

We are all reliant on faith for insight into what takes place after we die. Are we not?

 

[Craig B]

We are all reliant on faith for insight into what takes place after we die. Are we not?

Literalist religious people also assert that they have the word of God to inform them. You think that everyone will go to heaven in the end. Hell to you is a kind of purgatory.

But I have shown that other Muslims proclaim the eternity of Hell, and base their claims on the word of God, as they believe, contained in the Quran. These are absolute disagreements. Why should I pay attention to either side? You have no evidence at all for your opinion, and the Muslims who say the opposite do so because they think the Quran is the word of god, which I don't accept.

And in the mean time people of the same religion say entirely opposite things about the eternity of punishment, the most important possible question! How then can religious belief be a guide to anything?

 

[abaddon]

abaddon, you are effectively using your free will as we speak, are you not? Or is someone forcing you to behave in a particular manner? Do you currently reside within North Korea? Please let us know, maybe we can help.

Without the overwatch of an imaginary tyrant. Did you have a point?

 

[mikeb768]

Literalist religious people also assert that they have the word of God to inform them. You think that everyone will go to heaven in the end. Hell to you is a kind of purgatory.

But I have shown that other Muslims proclaim the eternity of Hell, and base their claims on the word of God, as they believe, contained in the Quran. These are absolute disagreements. Why should I pay attention to either side? You have no evidence at all for your opinion, and the Muslims who say the opposite do so because they think the Quran is the word of god, which I don't accept.

And in the mean time people of the same religion say entirely opposite things about the eternity of punishment, the most important possible question! How then can religious belief be a guide to anything?

If some people believe Hell is for ever, and some people believe Hell is for a very long time, not sure how that would change anyone's outlook. Either way it is a place you would really rather not be.

And if you don't believe in Hell, none of this should matter to you either way.

 

[mikeb768]

Without the overwatch of an imaginary tyrant. Did you have a point?

Sorry but there is no free will involved at all if the outcome of every action if known and each action itself is known and each decision is known and if every thought is known by your omnipotent beast.

Well earlier you tried to argue against free will, now you are claiming that you do have free will, so which is it?

 

[TimCallahan]

This is my opinion (which I think is well supported) for why God created mankind. Firstly to worship him, but also to share his bounty, as in Paradise. God being all knowing already knows what choices each individual will make. So then some may ask "Couldn't God, who already knows what actions people would take and already knowing their ultimate fate, just go ahead and place them into either Heaven or Hell?". Well he could, but that would be quite unjust no doubt. To reward or punish someone for something which they have not yet done? . . . (mega-snip) . . .

Concerning the first hilited area: Why would this perfect God of yours have a desire to be worshipped?

Concerning the second hilited area: Why would your God, intending to create us to worship him, bother to create people he knew beforehand would not worship him?

 

[Craig B]

If some people believe Hell is for ever, and some people believe Hell is for a very long time, not sure how that would change anyone's outlook.

Eh? Do you really truly mean that?

Either way it is a place you would really rather not be.

Yes but I'd even more rather not be in the permanent one than the temporary one. I must ask you, is this a joke?

 

[mikeb768]

Concerning the first hilited area: Why would this perfect God of yours have a desire to be worshipped?

Concerning the second hilited area: Why would your God, intending to create us to worship him, bother to create people he knew beforehand would not worship him?

Essentially what you are asking is why does God give people the choice? Good question, maybe he got tired of just having Angels who are kind of like robots (as understood in Islam), not having free will or choice. If people are forced to do things, the thing which they are doing is not really genuine or from the heart. We can use the concept of "Love" for example.

And why use the term "your God", we are talking of the God of the universe in which we both exist.

 

[abaddon]

Well earlier you tried to argue against free will, now you are claiming that you do have free will, so which is it?

Oh please. You know full well that your omnipotent sky fairy obviates free will.
That doesn't concern me in the slightest as an atheist.

 

[mikeb768]

Oh please. You know full well that your omnipotent sky fairy obviates free will.
That doesn't concern me in the slightest as an atheist.

Let me get this straight, so God is forcing you to be an atheist? lol

 

[MikeG]

......And why use the term "your God", we are talking of the God of the universe in which we both exist.

No. The universe exists. Your god exists in your head, and not in reality. Your god, one of thousands of gods also existing in human heads, is not our god because we don't believe in the existence of magic-men-in-the-sky. Your god is just an idea.......and not our idea.

That's why "your god" is perfectly correct.

 

[Rincewind]

So - how much time do we really have then?

 

[mikeb768]

No. The universe exists. Your god exists in your head, and not in reality. Your god, one of thousands of gods also existing in human heads, is not our god because we don't believe in the existence of magic-men-in-the-sky. Your god is just an idea.......and not our idea.

That's why "your god" is perfectly correct.

But you can't disprove God either. So basically you believe (or have faith) that the God which I am describing as the creator of our universe does not exist.

Other than God (the God of Abraham), which god is the next best candidate for God in your opinion and why?