How much time do we really have?

[TimCallahan]

If God doesn't need us, why would he create us?
What did our creation satisfy if not some need?

I might add this: If God had foreknowledge of everything we would do, why would he bother to create those who he knew would, of their own free will, would reject him?

 

[Donn]

I might add this: If God had foreknowledge of everything we..

Is it foreknowledge or foreskins? I can never recall.

 

[TimCallahan]

Is it foreknowledge or foreskins? I can never recall.

Now, there's another question: Why would God give us foreskins if they're nasty and he wants us to cut them off?

 

[Donn]

Now, there's another question: Why would God give us foreskins if they're nasty and he wants us to cut them off?

Same reason he gives us minds and then demands that we not use them...

Uh... I got nothin'.

 

[TimCallahan]

Mikeb768: I'm curious about why the Islamic reaction to western ideas is so often expressed as excessive brutality. Leaving aside, for the moment the 9/11 attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon, consider the recent attack on a boarding school in Nigeria by the Islamist group, Boko Haram. They burned to death or shot dozens of male students after herding the female students into one place and telling them to forget their studies and find husbands. These young women were lucky. Other female students haven't fared so well. For example, consider the 2008 acid attack on school girls in Afghanistan.

While I'm certain the Qur'an doesn't condone such behavior, I'm curious as to how it is that groups like Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Boko Haram justify suppression of women,brutality against school girls, killing college students, suppressing education in general and even such innocent activities a flying kites. All three of these groups claim to be doing these deeds in the name of Islam.

 

[dlorde]

Mikeb768: I'm curious about why the Islamic reaction to western ideas is so often expressed as excessive brutality.

To be fair, other religions also have extremist fanatic groups prepared to kill & maim to show they're right.

I guess if your holy books and/or scriptures are vague and ambiguous enough to be interpreted however you like, they provide can provide cover for all kinds of vermin...

 

[TimCallahan]

To be fair, other religions also have extremist fanatic groups prepared to kill & maim to show they're right.
I guess if your holy books and/or scriptures are vague and ambiguous enough to be interpreted however you like, they provide can provide cover for all kinds of vermin...

True, and thanks for bringing that up. I'm not entirely singling out Islam. That said, however, Christianity today, outside of Africa at least, seems much less likely to resort to violence than do Islamist groups.

Perhaps it's also wrong to ask mikeb768 to explain the reasoning of such groups as Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Boko Haram. However if he could cite some expressions of outrage on the part of Muslims living in those regions against the violence done by these groups, I would feel considerably more encouraged than I am at present.

 

[hgus]

True, and thanks for bringing that up. I'm not entirely singling out Islam. That said, however, Christianity today, outside of Africa at least, seems much less likely to resort to violence than do Islamist groups.

Perhaps it's also wrong to ask mikeb768 to explain the reasoning of such groups as Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Boko Haram. However if he could cite some expressions of outrage on the part of Muslims living in those regions against the violence done by these groups, I would feel considerably more encouraged than I am at present.

I think it has a lot less to do with religion than with nationalism and a feeling of victimization. If one looks where the main battles is and have been fought it is clear to me that we are the aggressors and that they are the defenders. We have the advanced weaponry and they have desperation, anger and hate. I am convinced that I would be a militant if I had been born a muslim in the Middle east (ME) instead of a christian (sort of anyway) in a peaceful Sweden.

And no, I do belong to the blame it on the west or the US crowd. I think we generally got it right but not in the ME. The region is so strategically important that it is doomed to be a battlefield between the major powers in the world. And the west is no better or worse then any other, only stronger.

 

[tsig]

Now, there's another question: Why would God give us foreskins if they're nasty and he wants us to cut them off?

Since god's ways are not men's ways when god says whack it off he really means leave it alone.

 

[pakeha]

Now, there's another question: Why would God give us foreskins if they're nasty and he wants us to cut them off?

Have you considered asking GIBHOR about this?

 

[Donn]

However if he could cite some expressions of outrage on the part of Muslims living in those regions against the violence done by these groups, I would feel considerably more encouraged than I am at present.

I rather liked this guest post:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterf...islam-a-more-radical-religion-an-inside-view/

My name is Kaveh. And I am intolerant, sexist, racist, homophobe, and an anti-semite. But I’m recovering. Hopefully. If I ever have a daughter, she will be better me. She will look at me in the eyes and she will tell me “dad, you’re a bigot, and I am not like you.” And I will be proud of her that day. No matter how hard I try, I have no hope of ever cleaning the ugliness of intolerance from my “soul.” But I will try to make a better world for my children. And the first step in recovery is acceptance, and humility. — Kaveh Mousavi, the pseudonym of an Iranian atheist​

As usual, things are complex and messy. The closer you get to a clean tabletop, the messier it looks. This post was a rare insight into a closed and secret pov. It does a little to answer the "why don't the moderate Muslims complain?" question.

 

[TimCallahan]

I think it has a lot less to do with religion than with nationalism and a feeling of victimization. If one looks where the main battles is and have been fought it is clear to me that we are the aggressors and that they are the defenders. We have the advanced weaponry and they have desperation, anger and hate. I am convinced that I would be a militant if I had been born a muslim in the Middle east (ME) instead of a christian (sort of anyway) in a peaceful Sweden.

And no, I do belong to the blame it on the west or the US crowd. I think we generally got it right but not in the ME. The region is so strategically important that it is doomed to be a battlefield between the major powers in the world. And the west is no better or worse then any other, only stronger.

While I agree with some of what you say, this has nothing to do with the Nigerian on Nigerian violence of Boko Haram burning to death and shooting to death the male students at the Nigerian boarding school and telling the female students not to be educated, but to go home and get married. It also has nothing to do with the Afghan on Afghan violence perpetrated by the cowards who threw acid in the faces of schoolgirls simply because they were indeed going to school.

I am assuming that mikeb768 deplores such actions and I was wondering if he had any insight into why Boko Haram and the acid-throwing Afghans seem to think such actions are halal.

ETA: There is certainly anti-western sentiment behind Boko Haram. Here's the Wikipedia article on that group; from the article (bolding added):

The Congregation of the People of Tradition for Proselytism and Jihad (Arabic: جماعة اهل السنة للدعوة والجهاد‎ Jamāʻat Ahl as-Sunnah lid-daʻwa wal-Jihād)—better known by its Hausa name Boko Haram (pronounced [bōːkòː hàrâm], "Western education is sinful")—is an Islamic jihadist and takfiri militant and terrorist organization based in the northeast of Nigeria, north Cameroon and Niger. Founded by Mohammed Yusuf in 2002, the organisation seeks to establish a "pure" Islamic state ruled by sharia law, putting a stop to what it deems "Westernization." The group is known for attacking Christians and government targets, bombing churches, attacking schools and police stations, kidnapping western tourists, but has also assassinated members of the Islamic establishment. Violence linked to the Boko Haram insurgency has resulted in an estimated 10,000 deaths between 2001 and 2013.

I also have a problem with people killing children (from the article):

Militants have killed an estimated 40 pupils in a pre-dawn attack on a Nigerian school, setting ablaze a locked hostel then shooting and slitting the throats of those who escaped through windows.

Survivors said some of the victims, aged 11 to 18, had been burned alive by the attackers,thought to be members of Islamist extremist group Boko Haram, which is opposed to "western-style" education.

 

[hgus]

While I agree with some of what you say, this has nothing to do with the Nigerian on Nigerian violence of Boko Haram burning to death and shooting to death the male students at the Nigerian boarding school and telling the female students not to be educated, but to go home and get married. It also has nothing to do with the Afghan on Afghan violence perpetrated by the cowards who threw acid in the faces of schoolgirls simply because they were indeed going to school.

I agree with you. What I said have nothing to do with the above. I think all religions can be used for good and bad, and it is my impression that religious fanatics are always in luck, because god always seems to tell them what they want to hear. Today it is my impression that islam is used to legitimize more awful things then christianity. I agree entirely with Amos Oz when he says that the struggle is not between different religions but between fanatics and the rest of us.

 

[TimCallahan]

I agree with you. What I said have nothing to do with the above. I think all religions can be used for good and bad, and it is my impression that religious fanatics are always in luck, because god always seems to tell them what they want to hear. Today it is my impression that islam is used to legitimize more awful things then christianity. I agree entirely with Amos Oz when he says that the struggle is not between different religions but between fanatics and the rest of us.

So, the question is: Where does mikeb768 stand in all this?

 

[mikeb768]

Mikeb768: I'm curious about why the Islamic reaction to western ideas is so often expressed as excessive brutality. Leaving aside, for the moment the 9/11 attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon, consider the recent attack on a boarding school in Nigeria by the Islamist group, Boko Haram. They burned to death or shot dozens of male students after herding the female students into one place and telling them to forget their studies and find husbands. These young women were lucky. Other female students haven't fared so well. For example, consider the 2008 acid attack on school girls in Afghanistan.

While I'm certain the Qur'an doesn't condone such behavior, I'm curious as to how it is that groups like Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Boko Haram justify suppression of women,brutality against school girls, killing college students, suppressing education in general and even such innocent activities a flying kites. All three of these groups claim to be doing these deeds in the name of Islam.

These things really have nothing to do with Islam. People often try and use a religion to justify various agendas. Sometimes people just lack understanding, or are easily manipulated. The Quran tells us that life is precious and not something which should be taken unjustly:

[Quran 5:32] “We ordained ...that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind.”

God's preference of peace over war: [Quran, 8:61] "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."

Regarding the limits of fighting: [Quran 2:190] "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors." And many more verses which address such issues can be found within the Quran.

Just because someone says that they are acting in the name of a particular religions does not make it so.


The two idiots in the UK who killed British Army soldier Lee Rigby, is that what Islam teaches? You can just attack an innocent man standing in the street because he happens to serve in the Military? These men told passers-by that he had killed soldier Lee Rigby in the name of Allah. So are such actions and behavior endorsed by Islam. Of course Not, these guys are misguided morons who just murdered an innocent man. Man killed in deadly terror attack in London street

Or like when Anders Behring Breivik (a self proclaimed Christian) took it upon himself to murder 77 innocent people, many who were only in their teens. This man claimed to be acting in the name of Christianity, but do these actions accurately reflect the teachings found within the Bible or the message of Jesus?

Quote: "Well, I am a militant Christian; to prevent the de-Christianisation of Europe is very important," Norway attacks: at least 92 killed in Oslo and Utøya island

People can claim what ever it is that they want, in the End God will be the Judge of us all. Just as we shouldn't judge the traffic laws based the number of idiot drivers on the roads, I think the same can be said for most religions of the world. Also the suppression of education for women has absolutely zero to do with Islam, but a lot to do with culture. I would encourage people who are sincerely interested in seeing what the Quran really says, to read the Quran for themselves.

I will probably be a way for some time, just super busy atm.

 

[devnull]

Having no central authority is both a blessing and a curse Id imagine. A muslim friend once told me that the wearing of the hijab/niqab/burka was no a religious thing but a cultural one. Im not sure if that's true but it sounds believable.

 

[TimCallahan]

These things really have nothing to do with Islam. People often try and use a religion to justify various agendas. Sometimes people just lack understanding, or are easily manipulated. The Quran tells us that life is precious and not something which should be taken unjustly:

[Quran 5:32] “We ordained ...that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind.”

God's preference of peace over war: [Quran, 8:61] "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."

Regarding the limits of fighting: [Quran 2:190] "Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors." And many more verses which address such issues can be found within the Quran.

Just because someone says that they are acting in the name of a particular religions does not make it so.


The two idiots in the UK who killed British Army soldier Lee Rigby, is that what Islam teaches? You can just attack an innocent man standing in the street because he happens to serve in the Military? These men told passers-by that he had killed soldier Lee Rigby in the name of Allah. So are such actions and behavior endorsed by Islam. Of course Not, these guys are misguided morons who just murdered an innocent man. Man killed in deadly terror attack in London street

Or like when Anders Behring Breivik (a self proclaimed Christian) took it upon himself to murder 77 innocent people, many who were only in their teens. This man claimed to be acting in the name of Christianity, but do these actions accurately reflect the teachings found within the Bible or the message of Jesus?

Quote: "Well, I am a militant Christian; to prevent the de-Christianisation of Europe is very important," Norway attacks: at least 92 killed in Oslo and Utøya island

People can claim what ever it is that they want, in the End God will be the Judge of us all. Just as we shouldn't judge the traffic laws based the number of idiot drivers on the roads, I think the same can be said for most religions of the world. Also the suppression of education for women has absolutely zero to do with Islam, but a lot to do with culture. I would encourage people who are sincerely interested in seeing what the Quran really says, to read the Quran for themselves.

I will probably be a way for some time, just super busy atm.

All right, that's a good answer. You are as appalled as I am at the actions of Boko Haram. And, yes, the atrocity perpetrated by Anders Behring Breivik was also appalling. Here's the problem I have (and I state this with the understanding that you have nothing to do with such behavior and may not be able to answer my question): While Breivik is a single individual, the Taliban and Boko Haram are organizations comprised of many people. So, my question is this: Why are such groups - espousing such views as the suppression of women and having such a propensity for violence - as common as they are in the Islamic world?

 

[hgus]

All right, that's a good answer. You are as appalled as I am at the actions of Boko Haram. And, yes, the atrocity perpetrated by Anders Behring Breivik was also appalling. Here's the problem I have (and I state this with the understanding that you have nothing to do with such behavior and may not be able to answer my question): While Breivik is a single individual, the Taliban and Boko Haram are organizations comprised of many people. So, my question is this: Why are such groups - espousing such views as the suppression of women and having such a propensity for violence - as common as they are in the Islamic world?

I believe it depends on many factors:

*The muslim world is rapidly leaving a traditional, tribal and very conservative society. They are fighting a "culture-war" on speed. In the west we have fought this war since the reformation or maybe the enlightenment depending on your view.
* The modernization side can and often is accused of being promoted by foreign interests.
* The religious aspect is mixed with nationalism and a feeling of inferiority.
* The modern states in the middle east have generally failed to deliver. They are corrupt and repressive. So if you are dissatisfied you can not go into politics, that leaves religion as an organizational force.
* Muslim nations have a very young population.
* And finally it is my impression that islam is relatively easy to hijack by firebrand preachers. But Islam is only a small part of it.

 

[Brainiac2]

Not much unless human nature undergoes a drastic transformation.

 

[mikeb768]

If we are so worthless, why would our worship be of any value.
If you say he loves us, then we do have value.
Which is it?

I never told you "God loves you". This is a common phrase which Christians toss around. I assume that the basis of such a statement, is that if Jesus died for the sins of Mankind then God's love is now viewed as unconditional? Or unconditional for those who believe that Jesus died for them?? It is a pretty confusing doctrine imo. Trinity Explained (Satire, not meant to insult anyone)