How much time do we really have?

[Lord Emsworth]

Your argument starts to unravel when you insert the phrase "the falcon God" in the place of "the overseer of the stonemasons".

I have no inclination to substitute any phrases on that doorpost. So, no unraveling.

Your problem is, that the three hieroglyphs which you are trying to pass off as the name "Haman" actually spell the name of the falcon God "Hemen". (I can show you the these three hieroglyphs, if you want.) Another problem is of course that there are not just three hieroglyphs, but five (I can show you this too, if you want); so that the name of this overseer is actually hmn[htp?], and not just hmn.

And when I say 'your problems' I mean 'your problems'. Your problems. Problems which you have yet to address in any meaningful way. But addressing these your problems does not seem to be anything that you are capable of doing, for whatever reasons. Instead you sweep them under the rug, or you try to do that at least. And you make up asinine stuff about inserting one phrase for another (^^^), or Tim Callahan asserting this-or-that (vvv), or something about Hotep as a surname, or whatever. The list is long. Really long. But you are not fooling anybody. Except, maybe, yourself.

In Ranke's work which is based off of Wrezsinski's work only the hieroglyphs depicting #25 can be found on the actual door jamb, #24 & #26 are not present. Also the usage of the term htp as referring to a god, which TimCallahan keeps trying to assert cannot be found. Although there are more than 30 examples where the term has been used in reference to actual people, shown in link #2.

You are making stuff up about what Tim said, and then you address it. It is called a Strawman. But you don't fool anybody except yourself, maybe. (Plus, you do not quite seem to understand the point of Ranke's book.)

HMN found in the Quran = HMN found on ancient Egyptian artifact

Occam's Razor favours 'hmn = Hemen [the falcon God]'.

Plus, hmn[htp?] != hmn

(Clearly explained the following two posts #1, #2)

I have no inclinationg of seeing these two heaps of trash as anything other than two heaps of trash which have been addressed and rebutted many times over now.

 

[mikeb768]

Why not?

Why am I or anyone else any less worthy of receiving a communication from god than Muhammad?

Did god suddenly go mute?

tsig, it sounds like you should probably keep waiting for that voice in your head to appear. For everyone else I would recommend they look into the living miracle (aka The Final Miracle).

Although if God does in fact contact you directly just as your are requesting, do you promise to make a thread about this, so that myself and others can evaluate your claims?

Another coincidence?

 

[pakeha]

1) HMN found in the Quran = HMN found on ancient Egyptian artifact (Clearly explained the following two posts #1, #2)

Yes, I've read and reread those posts a number of times.
What's astonishing is that even when the subject is explained patiently and repeatedly as in TIm Callahan's post

This only works if you go out of your way to ignore the following facts:

1) The name on the door stop wasn't "Haman" or the consonants HMN; it was Hemen-hotep, or, using consonants only HMNHTP.

2) The ancient Egyptian suffix hotep means either "is pleased" or "at peace." In Egyptian names, it was often coupled with the name of a god, implying that the deity was pleased with the bearer of the name. Here are some examples: Amen-hotep (Amon is pleased [with him]); Ptah-hotep (Ptah is pleased [with him]); and Hemen-hotep (Hemen is pleased [with him]). Amon was the head of the Egyptian pantheon. Ptah was an important deity in that pantheon, a potter god who formed humans out of clay. Hemen was a more minor deity, a falcon god - and, no, I'm not saying that the owner of the doorstop was a falcon god.

3) The story in the Qur'an has an unnamed pharaoh telling Haman to build him a tower reaching to heaven so he (the pharaoh) can see Moses' god. The story shows strong signs of it being a conflation of the tower of Babel story from Genesis with the Book of Esther. This becomes more likely when we consider that in Esther, Haman has a gallows 50 cubits high built upon which to hang Mordecai (Esther 5:14). A cubit is roughly a foot and a half. So, 50 cubits high is 75 feet high.

4) The story of the Exodus cannot be made to fit either history or archaeology, particularly if you try to fit it into the 19th. dynasty, as you have an to make the pharaoh of the exodus Ramesses II.

You have failed to answer these arguments point by point. Instead, you've simply dismissed them.

or in any number of others, including my own, you adhere to an error.
Quran trumps the truth?
I think not.

 

[mikeb768]

Yes, I've read and reread those posts a number of times.
What's astonishing is that even when the subject is explained patiently and repeatedly as in TIm Callahan's post

or in any number of others, including my own, you adhere to an error.
Quran trumps the truth?
I think not.

Hemen could not have been present as you claim, since we know that the vowels "e" or "a" were not present. The other things which you mention have already been addressed. The Quran does not trump truth as you claim, the Quran just seems to be in alignment with the truth.

Both 1 & 2, have already been addressed multiple times. #1, #2

3) You are attempting to conflate the story of Moses in the Quran, with the story of Book of Esther in the Bible, when they clearly bear no resemblance.
Moses in the Quran, Moses is referred to in the Quran more than any other prophet (his life and the surrounding events are well detailed).
Book of Ester (Plot summary), Book of Ester Complete
So based on the mention of the name "Haman" and the mention of a Tower these must be related? That is the text book definition of what it means to conflate two unrelated things.

4) And you deny portions of Jewish History, based on the assumption that the Jewish Exodus and Passover tradition are nothing more than hoaxes and lies. You place yourself at odds with the historicity of this event, something which is supported by ancient Egyptian artifacts such as the Merneptah Stele (understood to have been created around 1208 BC) which represents the first documented instance of the name "Israel" in the historical record.

 

[Myriad]

The wiggle room given to Clarke is quite generous, imo (since when has a satellite been known to be a gadget).

Yes, as was the wiggle room I gave to the Quran predictions (the ones that actually were predictions of something of import) from the OP.

If we start to compare the additional statements which were made by Clarke, then it would only be fair to also include the statements which were made by Muhammad (saw) and are found in the Hadiths.

Sure, I'm game. Let's see all the predictions included in those statements and score them up.

Then to also compare for accuracy, amount of time between the prediction and fulfillment, number of failed predictions vs number of fulfilled, etc.

A majority of the ones in the OP that I've conceded as correct were short-range. As for long-range ones, well, to score Clarke's we'll have to wait 1400 years or so to see if they pan out, as we had to do for the Jewish homeland one and the "dominant" religion one from the OP. There's a greater chance of a lunar colony, a solar power satellite, or an undersea city happening eventually if we wait that long, don't you think? I suppose we can be generous and also give Allah another 1400 years for the finding-Noah's-Ark and end o' the world predictions to come true.

Was Arthur Clarke known to have authored any books?

Many, but they were actually dictated to him by the spirit of Jules Verne.

 

[Donn]

As a speaker for your religion, Mike, you have driven me even further from Islam than I could have thought possible. I want to congratulate you on a job well done in this thread. Keep up the good atheist-positive work.

 

[mikeb768]

I'm beginning to see why there seems to be so much confusion on the subject of Haman.

It looks like some of this may have originated from a blogger who goes by the moniker "stopspamming".
http://stopspamming1.blogspot.com/2013/03/has-haman-in-koran-been-found.html

The blog posting looks like a jumble of misinformation which contains a great number of errors, some people are now passing along his assessment as legitimate. And surprisingly enough the images which were linked to his post only a year ago are now missing. Even the claimed "source" links which are found on his blog post are a mix of broken links, and links from well known anti Islamic websites.

Does anyone have the exact page numbers where the source information can be found in both Wreszinski's and Ranke's books? Since these are the sources which the museum has cited as references.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I'm beginning to see why there seems to be so much confusion on the subject of Haman.

You seem to be the only person who is confused. And you still haven't addressed your problems, but instead resorted to further distractions.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

As a speaker for your religion, Mike, you have driven me even further from Islam than I could have thought possible.

Same for me. Much more than Bin Laden et al ever could have.

 

[mikeb768]

As a speaker for your religion, Mike, you have driven me even further from Islam than I could have thought possible. I want to congratulate you on a job well done in this thread. Keep up the good atheist-positive work.

Oh please don't go Donn, as your contributions to this thread will surely be missed. Although I realize that we all must choose our own path in life. May God bless you to find sincere guidance before your time of crossing over.

 

[mikeb768]

You seem to be the only person who is confused. And you still haven't addressed your problems, but instead resorted to further distractions.

So you cut away the portion of my post asking if anyone actually has access to the source material? This would no doubt help to to clear up some of the confusion. The source for your current argument seems to originate from a blog post by "stopspamming" dated Mar 2013, his blog post on the subject is riddled with errors, broken links, and missing pictures.

So once again: "Does anyone have the exact page numbers where the source information can be found in both Wreszinski's and Ranke's books? Since these are the sources which the museum has cited as references." If I remember correctly the Google books link to Wreszinski's work on this subject was missing a number of pages.

 

[Donn]

Your problem is, that the three hieroglyphs which you are trying to pass off as the name "Haman" actually spell the name of the falcon God "Hemen". (I can show you the these three hieroglyphs, if you want.)

Please do.

Oh please don't go Donn, as your contributions to this thread will surely be missed.

Oh, fear not Mike. I think I have lots of room for new reasons not to take Islam seriously. This is the thread, you are the teacher. Carry on.

 

[MikeG]

........Was Arthur Clarke known to have authored any books?........

You are joking, aren't you?

Curious but irrelevant that we seem to be comparing the predictions of two self-confessed paedophiles.

 

[TimCallahan]

Both 1 & 2, have already been addressed multiple times. #1, #2

We'll have to agree to disagree on these two points.

3) You are attempting to conflate the story of Moses in the Quran, with the story of Book of Esther in the Bible, when they clearly bear no resemblance.Moses in the Quran, Moses is referred to in the Quran more than any other prophet (his life and the surrounding events are well detailed).
Book of Ester (Plot summary), Book of Ester Complete
So based on the mention of the name "Haman" and the mention of a Tower these must be related? That is the text book definition of what it means to conflate two unrelated things.

No, I'm not the one doing the conflation. I'm saying that Muhammad conflated three stories to make a point about human hubris and divine punishment. He did this by taking the Haman of the Book of Esther, the pharaoh of the Exodus and the motif of the tower built to reach heaven, the tower of Babel from Genesis.

4) And you deny portions of Jewish History, based on the assumption that the Jewish Exodus and Passover tradition are nothing more than hoaxes and lies. You place yourself at odds with the historicity of this event, something which is supported by ancient Egyptian artifacts such as the Merneptah Stele (understood to have been created around 1208 BC) which represents the first documented instance of the name "Israel" in the historical record.

Again, the Exodus and Conquest narratives of Exodus and Joshua simply aren't supported by either history or archaeology. There could have been an event quite minor in Egyptian history involving the escape of a band of slaves, an event that was, however,very important to that small group, that served as the basis of the Exodus myth.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Please do.

Alright.

In blue: The symbols for Hemen (the falcon God). (1) the twisted wick/flax, (2) a biliteral symbols which I don't know what it is called, (3) the water ripple.

In green: The full name of that overseer. Hemen[something], where [something] maybe some unusual spelling of hotep.

In red: The symbols which spell Amun on that doorpost. Interesting because Amun is spelled similar to Hemen, only that instead of an H you have an A. (1) a flowering reed, (2) a biliteral symbols which I don't know what it is called, (3) the water ripple.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_uniliteral_signs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_biliteral_signs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_triliteral_signs
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/egyptian.htm


(Disclaimer: I do neither read nor speak this language. And I hope I have broken no copyrights, or something.)

 

[mikeb768]

We'll have to agree to disagree on these two points.

No, I'm not the one doing the conflation. I'm saying that Muhammad conflated three stories to make a point about human hubris and divine punishment. He did this by taking the Haman of the Book of Esther, the pharaoh of the Exodus and the motif of the tower built to reach heaven, the tower of Babel from Genesis.

Again, the Exodus and Conquest narratives of Exodus and Joshua simply aren't supported by either history or archaeology. There could have been an event quite minor in Egyptian history involving the escape of a band of slaves, an event that was, however,very important to that small group, that served as the basis of the Exodus myth.

3) If you take the time to read the two stories it is quite easy to see they bear no resemblance.
4) By choosing to deny things such as "first documented instance of the name Israel in the historical record" which is found on the Merneptah Stele you place your self at odds with what is known as recorded history. And I have no idea where this "the Exodus may have only been a band of slaves" theory comes from?

And after taking time to evaluate the work of both Weszinski and Ranke, the name "hmn-h" as the "overseer of stonemasons" is pretty clear. What some people seem to be doing is trying to do is to say that this is Hemen (falcon God), although none of the Egyptian Archeologist have suggested the mentioned door jamb to be associated with such. Also the approximate date for the Egyptian Falcon God is thought to be between 1069 - 30 BC or during the 25thd Dynasty of Egypt, so about 200 years after the writings found on the Door jamb belonging to Hmn-h (19th Dynasty). Taharqa and the Falcon God

Hope this helps to clear things up, but I'm pretty sure that the die hard skeptics will try and stick with Falcon God theory, despite the 200 year gap. I'm also glad the Museum in Vienna does not update the inscriptions based on anonymous, inaccurate, and poorly sourced blog postings.


HMN found in the Quran = HMN found on ancient Egyptian artifact (Clearly explained the following two posts #1, #2)

 

[Lord Emsworth]

So once again: "Does anyone have the exact page numbers where the source information can be found in both Wreszinski's and Ranke's books? Since these are the sources which the museum has cited as references." If I remember correctly the Google books link to Wreszinski's work on this subject was missing a number of pages.

The answer to your question about the page numbers can be found in the article which was linked to a few pages back by Pyrts, and others too. But you'll have to look for the page numbers yourself.

Linky:
www.answering-islam.org/authors/katz/haman/bucaille.html

 

[mikeb768]

The answer to your question about the page numbers can be found in the article which was linked to a few pages back by Pyrts, and others too. But you'll have to look for the page numbers yourself.

Yes, it is not hard to find, not only that but myself, Wreszinski, Ranke, and The Global Egyptian Museum all seem to be in agreement on the matter (just as was shown in my previous post).

Walter Wreszinski, Aegyptische Inschriften aus dem K.K. Hof Museum in Wien
Egyptian Inscriptions from the K.K. Hof Museum in Vienna
Leipzig: J C Hinrichs’sche Buchhandlung: 1906, Page 130, Nr. I. 34.

Hermann Ranke, Die Ägyptischen Personennamen, Verzeichnis der Namen
The Egyptian Family Names, Listing of the Names
Verlag Von J J Augustin in Glückstadt, Band I,1935, Band II, 1952, Page 240, #25

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Yes, it is not hard to find, not only that but myself, Wreszinski, Ranke, and The Global Egyptian Museum all seem to be in agreement on the matter (just as was shown in my previous post).

You are only fooling yourself with this self-congratulatory stuff. As long as you are not dealing with your problems you are not going to get anywhere. Your problems as outlined here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9913040#post9913040
Your problems.

To me the issue is clear. Occam's Razor, and there goes your "hmnhtp=Haman" hypothesis. (I say hypothesis in want for a better word.) "hmnhtp=Hemen-is-pleased" is simply better. Much better.

ETA: Just as an aside ... Not Wreszinski, not Ranke, and not The Global Egyptian Museum have anything about "Haman". Wreszinski merely has hieroglyphs, Ranke has hmn-h(?) and The Global Egyptian Museum has hemen-hotep (IIRC). It is just you who has "Haman".

 

[Donn]

Alright...

Tah.

I have to say I don't see the additional stuff after the main three-picture glyph; the flax, the upside-down comb thing and the water. The images imply it says HMN, but whence the hotep?

I would not be surprised if I missed this earlier in the thread, put it down to a short memory and a bad cold.