How far will the excuses to shoot go?

[Nessie]

So as there is no threat from a naked man bitting people you clearly object to the shooting of the face eater then.

Not no threat, a threat level that is below the use of deadly force.

 

[Nessie]

Because you don't bring pepper spray to a gun fight. This isn't the UK.

The naked man did not bring anything to the fight.

 

[Nessie]

A naked man is incapable of killing? Quite the theory you have there.

A naked man capable of killing, that is quite a theory you have there. Are nudity, strange behavouir and drug use high risk such that they require an escalation straight to deadly force?

 

[Nessie]

There's a video. There is an investigation going on. Since there are no battling attorneys leaking out "their version" a la T. Martin, just what is being gained by all the presumptions? Has anyone in this thread got relatives involved? I don't have a whole lot of difficulty waiting for some actual evidence and not just a bunch of hearsay.

As to LSD? I agree that it's highly unlikely that anyone on clean LSD would behave like that, but unscrupulous dealers have been known to pass of whatever they have as whatever the kids are looking for. I can remember a friend getting burned with heroin when he wanted to try coke for the first time. And cutting acid with speed was a very common gambit, even in my day. Plus, it's Southern Alabama. LE there are probably quite capable of hearing any three letters and assuming LSD (and/or so would be the students who reported that he'd dropped acid). First commenter could've said PCP or STP or PDQ. By the time it was repeated (Chinese Whispers, and all that), it became LSD to someone's hearing.

This thread is about the excuse for using the gun that the University came out with to justify its use. A naked man, behaving erratically, rushing at someone. If that is all they can come up with then it shows how many Americans go for their guns too quickly and ignore other means that are less deadly.

 

[Segnosaur]

So the only complaint is: When facing someone who was (from the description) more or less attacking him, he used "deadly force" in response.

Only?!

Yes, "only".

Nobody is claiming that the shooting victim was just "minding his own business when the cops attacked". Nobody is claiming the victim was subdued/surrendering at the time of the shooting.

Everyone seems to agree that a guy was running at the cop, and ignored orders to stop (despite the officer having a gun drawn).

Yes, killing a guy who is not threatening your life is a pretty major complaint.

Yes if the officer did kill a guy who was not threatening his life it would be a pretty major complaint.

Of course, that's not what happened. Instead, the officer shot a guy who was charging at him, and was irrational to the point of ignoring orders to stop despite the officer having a gun. Most people would probably consider that a significant threat, at least one that could result in significant bodily harm.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

independent accounts of what happened

Are there any independent witnesses of his allegedly charging at the cop? I did not recall reading about any.

 

[Bikewer]

I would have to wonder about the policies of this particular organization. If he was authorized to have less-than-lethal weapons but didn't....
Our policy is, "if we issue it, you carry it." If it's not issued, you don't. Failure to have the appropriate "tool" to handle a situation would be a violation of policy.
Shooting someone because you didn't have any alternative might well lead to charges....Since you were not following department policy.

Again however, standards vary wildly. I have no idea what a "peace officer" in that state indicates. Here, it can include anything from a certified police officer to an "officer of the court" (a prosecutor) or even a process server.
Professional outfits strive for a policy that meets national standards under an organization called IACLEA. They develop "model" policy manuals for police organizations. However, there is no requirement that a given organization do so, and those using private "security" forces may see little need.

 

[Segnosaur]

If carrying a gun is so risky to the carrier, why carry anything else such as pepper spray? The way you describe carrying a gun, it is the gun or nothing.

Because there are many criminals who do have guns, and an officer should be equipped to handle the worst possible situation that he might face.

 

[WildCat]

There's a video. There is an investigation going on. Since there are no battling attorneys leaking out "their version" a la T. Martin, just what is being gained by all the presumptions? Has anyone in this thread got relatives involved? I don't have a whole lot of difficulty waiting for some actual evidence and not just a bunch of hearsay.

As to LSD? I agree that it's highly unlikely that anyone on clean LSD would behave like that, but unscrupulous dealers have been known to pass of whatever they have as whatever the kids are looking for. I can remember a friend getting burned with heroin when he wanted to try coke for the first time. And cutting acid with speed was a very common gambit, even in my day. Plus, it's Southern Alabama. LE there are probably quite capable of hearing any three letters and assuming LSD (and/or so would be the students who reported that he'd dropped acid). First commenter could've said PCP or STP or PDQ. By the time it was repeated (Chinese Whispers, and all that), it became LSD to someone's hearing.

Maybe he was just upset that the Bush concert sucked and he should have seen Willie Nelson instead.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Naked men still have their muscles, do you really think all strangulations must be garrotes? That protective gear must be employed to beat someone to death? To break bones?

Drugs remove the limiting factors on human potential, allowing us to continue through pain to the physical limits of muscle and sinew, use all of our muscle cells' contracting abilities at once. This cop was in rightful fear of his life, and lacked a non-lethal means to defend himself.

I may have trained to fourth qyu in Aikido, but I would not want to tangle with a drugged-out wrestler---naked or not. I'd shoot him dead before I'd let him try, my bodily integrity is worth more to me than someone else's life. How much injury should I allow to myself, in order to protect an attacker? Broken bones, perforated lungs, subdural hematoma?

 

[Dan O.]

Cochran said Austin came out of police headquarters with his gun drawn after he heard Collar — a 5-foot-7, 135-pound former high school wrestler — banging on a door.

There is the problem. He should have stayed in his truck.

 

[WildCat]

The naked man did not bring anything to the fight.

So?

Are cops supposed to use their psychic powers to determine if they will encounter an armed suspect that day, and wear their gun according to what the tea leaves say?

 

[WildCat]

A naked man capable of killing, that is quite a theory you have there. Are nudity, strange behavouir and drug use high risk such that they require an escalation straight to deadly force?

Like the naked guy who nearly killed another man by eating his face, and was only stopped from killing him because cops shot him dead?

People have been killed by a single punch, had a case here a few months ago. Wearing clothes does not make a person more lethal.

 

[BStrong]

A naked man capable of killing, that is quite a theory you have there. Are nudity, strange behavouir and drug use high risk such that they require an escalation straight to deadly force?

Yes.

And if the facts as reported are true, you have to note close physical proximity and failure to follow verbal commands from the officer as well.

I will post in more detail later today.

 

[WildCat]

There is the problem. He should have stayed in his truck.

What truck?

 

[WildCat]

A thigh/pelvis shot is very likely to be fatal, actually.

Yep, happened here just last night:

Clark had been sitting inside the truck when he was approached by several men -- at least one of them armed with a handgun -- who demanded his money, police said.

Clark was shot in the right hip, authorities said. He was taken to Stroger Hospital, where he was pronounced dead, according to police and the Cook County medical examiner's office. An autopsy is scheduled for later today.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...robbery-in-englewood-20121010,0,4570544.story

 

[Nessie]

......

..... Most people would probably consider that a significant threat, at least one that could result in significant bodily harm.

I think anyone who fears a naked man who may have been high on drugs should not be in the police. He got too scared too easily.

In Scotland two terrorists who had let off a bomb were tackled by a number of unarmed people, civilians, an off duty police officer and then some on duty ones. Indeed one punched one of the terrorists who was on fire at the time.

 

[Bob001]

In the continuing debate here about whether it's OK to shoot and kill unarmed disturbed people, there hasn't been much discussion about the level of training the officer received. I'm sure there must be exceptions, but on many campuses the police are about half-a-step up from mall rent-a-cops. Their main function is to enforce parking restrictions and answer noise complaints. In my area armed campus cops are licensed as "special police officers," and the main job requirement is completion of a firearms safety course. They don't spend months in police academies like real cops.

Maybe what should have happened in this case is that as soon as he saw what he was dealing with, the responding campus officer should have called the real cops. And pepper spray doesn't always work, but it often does, or it might at least have chased the student away to where multiple cops could have taken him down. A campus cop should certainly have pepper spray available. Killing somebody might be necessary sometimes, but it should always be the last resort.

 

[Nessie]

OK so the consensus amongst Americans is that naked guys on drugs are a deadly threat, along with Japanese people dressed as John Travolta and a Scotsman who stupidly went to back door and knocked on it.

So what constitutes a non deadly threat in the USA?

 

[LTC8K6]

Mobile County Sheriff Sam Cochran says the officer who shot Collar was armed only with a gun — and not a stun gun, pepper spray or baton.

There you go. If it's accurate.

http://www.startribune.com/nation/173465951.html?refer=y