How far will the excuses to shoot go?

[commandlinegamer]

Just thinking if this "cop" had been around in 80s when certain Bullingdon Boys were smashing up bars and restaurants he could have wiped out half the current British cabinet.

Or if he had turned up in Animal House that movie would have lasted 5 minutes.

 

[Nessie]

Ummm... what?

You mean just let the guy keep chasing him and chasing him?

Yeah, I can't see anything wrong with that ever happening ever.


He supposedly ordered the guy to stop and he didn't. So, just how long is he supposed to wait for that response, until the guy's on top of him?

And just how exactly is he going to get a verbal response when he's being chased?


The fact that some cases of self defense aren't justified does not mean that all cases of self defense are likewise not justified.

Someone rushing towards you, who does not care about his safety (i.e. is ignoring a drawn gun) is not likely interest in just "breaking your fingernail".

Yes you do let him chase and chase you until back up arrives to use non lethal force to subdue him. Your argument is that the cop can use lethal force as an option over waiting.

Or do we now an officer who is unable to tackle a naked man and also unable to keep space between him and that man? Are you saying that having a fitness level of 0 means you ran resort to deadly force? I say if that is the case, he should never have been in the police.

I see now that having a gun on you means you have to use the gun or risk losing it. The mere presence of the gun makes death far more likely.

 

[richardm]

Just thinking if this "cop" had been around in 80s when certain Bullingdon Boys were smashing up bars and restaurants he could have wiped out half the current British cabinet.

We need to ramp up research into time machines urgently.

 

[Nessie]

On the other hand, if he's in significant danger and he doesn't draw his weapon, he at further risk of harm if he can't draw the weapon in time.

LTC8K6 pointed to a distance of 15 feet where an individual can reach an officer before they have time to draw and aim their weapon. Assuming you trust his claim, that's not very far, and from the description in the opening post the incident started with the people in close proximity.



The officer can't at that point engage hand to hand without risking the loss of the weapon, and s/he can't use any nonlethal alternative like a baton, stun gun, taser, or pepper spray.

Since I didn't witness it, I couldn't say for sure that pulling the gun was excessive...but in the absence of a weapon in the hand of the suspect, and assuming that there was no immediate threat to others, the officer should have had training...

As others have pointed out, even a "well trained" individual can loose in a 1-on-1 fight. I suspect cops avoid those situations unless its (for example) a 2-on-1 situation, or the individual they'd be fighting is clearly at a disadvantage.

http://www.cracked.com/article_19654_6-painful-things-nobody-tells-you-about-fighting_p2.html


At this point we do not know what equipment the officer had at their disposal. A taser might have been an effective weapon to stop the individual, but if a taser was not standard issue then you can't necessarily blame the officer for not carrying one.

Again, we don't know if backup would have been able to respond within a reasonable amount of time. Given the fact that the guy was actively being chased, I'd say no.[/QUOTE]

If carrying a gun is so risky to the carrier, why carry anything else such as pepper spray? The way you describe carrying a gun, it is the gun or nothing.

 

[Nessie]

Ness, you have no idea what you're talking about wrt the bolded section above, and in this thread in general.

Added: I see the usual crew has responded, safe from their homes and never having served, so I'll leave it to you experts in UoF.

The point is that many are putting forward an argument that the cop had to kill to protect his gun from being taken from him and/or being used against him.

So I am saying is since that is the case, a police officer who cannot protect their gun should either not have a gun or not be a police officer.

 

[TheShadow]

Hmm, doesnt really sound like LSD to me.... not based on my own extensive "research" done many years ago....

I would suspect he would have been giggling, and might as some suggested tried to hug the cop, rather than charge him. The other assaults, the attempt to bite someone, and then his interaction with the officer, sounds alot more like some of the recent bath salt incidents..

I've never seen anyone get violent on LSD, and as I've mentioned, I have quite a bit of personal experience with that particular substance, as well as having spent time around many other's who were under the influence.

Extra large or higher than average doses will normally cause someone to "shut down", and collapse inwards, not freak out and attack people. I've seen a few people have a "bad trip", but they were not a threat to anyone.

More likely he would have been sitting in his room, gazing into something like this....

It will be interesting to see what the toxicology report comes back with.

 

[Nessie]

What these people don't get is that while they think they are presenting an argument for police using lethal force, they are in fact presenting an argument for police not having guns at all.

The logic goes "we need to shoot to kill to prevent bad guys getting guns, and you can grapple someone from fifteen feet away, so therefore cops with guns should summarily execute anyone who looks at them funny within fifteen feet". They don't see that if the only alternatives are cops summarily executing anyone within fifteen feet who looks at them funny, or cops not having guns, the option of not giving the cop the gun looks relatively attractive.

This is particularly true if the cop is a campus cop who is incredibly unlikely to face armed gangsters and highly likely to face students on a bad drug trip.

Very well put. That cop could have left his gun inside the police office as he there was no lethal threat form a naked man and gone out an tackled him with pepper spray, baton and cuffs and accepted he might get injured as his job can get physical at times. But no, the cop here chose to hide behind his guns thinking he is a tough guy, but really he is a coward.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Hopefully we can all agree that if the police, anywhere in the world, come across one person eating another person's face that the aforementioned person should be shot repeatedly.

So now you support killing unarmed people. So in this case the officer should have waited for the perp to eat someones face.

As he was biting people I have to find out exactly how much chewing is required before you can shoot a naked man biting people. Clearly more than here but less than the other.

So how much face must be bitten off before lethal force is warranted?

 

[TragicMonkey]

I would have thought it's the very point of having enforcement that was better armed than most of the troublemakers they'll encounter. Just like in a war, the better-armed side doesn't say "let's make this fair, and only use weapons on the enemy's level". The point is to stop the threat, not play a sport with everything equal between opponents.

I find it strange that so many are saying "if only the cop hadn't had a gun!" or "if only he had tased him/pepper sprayed him/done something different!" instead of "if only that stupid kid hadn't taken a bunch of drugs and run amok!" If you're going to do wishful rewrites of history, why not rewrite the actual irrefragable mistake in the situation?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Very well put. That cop could have left his gun inside the police office as he there was no lethal threat form a naked man and gone out an tackled him with pepper spray, baton and cuffs and accepted he might get injured as his job can get physical at times. But no, the cop here chose to hide behind his guns thinking he is a tough guy, but really he is a coward.

So as there is no threat from a naked man bitting people you clearly object to the shooting of the face eater then.

 

[WildCat]

If I said that you were in more danger from cars than sharks, would you respond by listing shark attacks?

What a bizarre non sequitur!

At any rate, if I'm in the water I'm in much greater danger from sharks than cars. I dont think anyone's ever been run over by a car while surfing, for example.

 

[WildCat]

I'm not sure that's a valid reson not to try to wound. With a shattered thigh bone or pelvis you're not going any further, no matter the drug. The police where I live have several times stopped perps by wounding them. An example is the guy who tried to kill Kurt Westergaard (Mohammed Drawings). He came at the cops with an axe and was shot in the arm and leg.

What makes you think they were aiming for those parts?

 

[WildCat]

If carrying a gun is so risky to the carrier, why carry anything else such as pepper spray?

Because you don't bring pepper spray to a gun fight. This isn't the UK.

 

[WildCat]

Very well put. That cop could have left his gun inside the police office as he there was no lethal threat form a naked man

A naked man is incapable of killing? Quite the theory you have there.

 

[drewid]

British cops handle things so much better. Two officers shot dead responding to a burglery call. Cops shoot dead a man in a car starting riots across London, Cops shoot an unarmed man on a train because they thought he was someone else and might have had a bomb.

Police shoot dead a man carrying a table leg in a carrier bag.

Police shot dead an unarmed man while he is laid naked in bed.

Yup... Our cops never use deadly force.

Two things about this
1) That's not actually that many incidents. Four too many yes, but still, four over many years.
2) These are seen in the UK as A Bad Thing. US not so much, judging by the other replies here.

 

[Foolmewunz]

What a bizarre non sequitur!

At any rate, if I'm in the water I'm in much greater danger from sharks than cars. I dont think anyone's ever been run over by a car while surfing, for example.

Well, for certain meanings of "surfing", you sure would be in Chicago.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...nger-Brother-While-Car-Surfing-164588606.html

(You oughta know a statement like that is like a red flag to a bull 'round here.)

 

[WildCat]

Well, for certain meanings of "surfing", you sure would be in Chicago.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...nger-Brother-While-Car-Surfing-164588606.html

(You oughta know a statement like that is like a red flag to a bull 'round here.)

 

[Resume]

But no, the cop here chose to hide behind his guns thinking he is a tough guy, but really he is a coward.

Calm, cool, collected assessment of the situation.

Bravo.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'm not sure that's a valid reson not to try to wound. With a shattered thigh bone or pelvis you're not going any further, no matter the drug. The police where I live have several times stopped perps by wounding them. An example is the guy who tried to kill Kurt Westergaard (Mohammed Drawings). He came at the cops with an axe and was shot in the arm and leg.

A thigh/pelvis shot is very likely to be fatal, actually.

If a cop in the US shoots a perp in the arm or leg, it's because he missed.

 

[Foolmewunz]

There's a video. There is an investigation going on. Since there are no battling attorneys leaking out "their version" a la T. Martin, just what is being gained by all the presumptions? Has anyone in this thread got relatives involved? I don't have a whole lot of difficulty waiting for some actual evidence and not just a bunch of hearsay.

As to LSD? I agree that it's highly unlikely that anyone on clean LSD would behave like that, but unscrupulous dealers have been known to pass of whatever they have as whatever the kids are looking for. I can remember a friend getting burned with heroin when he wanted to try coke for the first time. And cutting acid with speed was a very common gambit, even in my day. Plus, it's Southern Alabama. LE there are probably quite capable of hearing any three letters and assuming LSD (and/or so would be the students who reported that he'd dropped acid). First commenter could've said PCP or STP or PDQ. By the time it was repeated (Chinese Whispers, and all that), it became LSD to someone's hearing.