How do we know that places like Narnia do not exist?

If you define qualia as simply "subjective experience", then fine, they exist, and are generated by the brain.

If you define qualia as "irreducible subjective experience", and you do define it that way, Ian, as does Dr. Elitzur, then it's just incoherent philosopher-babble.

Irreducible? Well they certainly can't be reduced no. I don't define them that way, it's just a fact about them.


Either way, you cannot use qualia to disprove materialism.

Materialism necessarily entails consciousness doesn't exist. But it does exist. Therefore materialism cannot possibly be a correct characterisation of reality.

Anyway I can't be bothered to talk about this. You're completely off your trolley. You are an utterly stupid individual and I simply have no interest in talking to you. I might as well be talking to a brick wall.

You're on ignore.
 
Ian said:
Irreducible? Well they certainly can't be reduced no. I don't define them that way, it's just a fact about them.
Ah, clever gambit. It's not a definition, so we can't argue with the definition. It can't be derived by proof from simpler premises, so we can't ask for the proof. It's just a simple fact.

We're left with nothing but Ian clearly begging the question.


~~ Paul
 
Irreducible? Well they certainly can't be reduced no. I don't define them that way, it's just a fact about them.
And your evidence for this supposed fact is?

Materialism necessarily entails consciousness doesn't exist.
Wrong.

But it does exist.
Right.

Therefore materialism cannot possibly be a correct characterisation of reality.
Four hours to bury a cat?

Anyway I can't be bothered to talk about this. You're completely off your trolley. You are an utterly stupid individual and I simply have no interest in talking to you. I might as well be talking to a brick wall.
I know the feeling.

You're on ignore.
Well, that was productive.
 
What else is there to consciousness apart from experiences?

The ability to process those experiences. Memories. Self-awareness as distinct from otherness. Granted, we could claim that each of these is a form of experience... but given the definition of qualia, what ISN'T a quale? Qualia is too broad a term to be of any use at all.

Consciousness obviously can exist, whether qualia is a useful term or a chimera. Aside from which, even if we accept the existence of qualia - which most of us don't - that simply means that consciousness is a specific set of certain types of qualia, doesn't it? Not that qualia and consciousness are equatable. It's like saying that fruit salad and dessert are equatable... that dessert IS fruit salad IS dessert.... Wrong.

Allow me to put it another way. What would it mean to not have any experiences i.e qualia, but be conscious?

Now, as I understood it until today, qualia referred specifically to sensory information; I had not heard the term applied to memory or thought or sensation other than by the senses. In which case, consciousness without experiences would be nothing more than sensory deprivation. However, if qualia is also supposed to refer to thoughts, memories, etc... then if we accept the existence of qualia, we have to concede qualia would be necessary components of consciousness. However, once again, equating the two would be meaningless.

However, as I understand it, there is a subtle but significant difference between qualia and experiences. We might easily agree that two sighted persons experience a red flower, but might not know for sure if the alleged raw 'quale' of redness were the same. But in this case, qualia are irrelevant, yet again - too broad in category and too ill-defined to be of any use or interest.
 
Reducible in this sense means that it can be explained in terms of some other mechanism.

So the claim that qualia are irreducible is a claim of idealism or dualism. Of course, Ian says that this claim is neither a definition, a deduction from other principles, or something reached from evidence, but a "fact".

:nope:
 
Yes, qualia are simply presumed to exist. He and I take the existence of qualia as being absolutely 100% certain.

Ian, you really are a class apart in the moronic stakes. You start a thread complaining that Dawkins is an arse for stating with certainty that he knew Narnia did not exist (which he didn't anyway) and then you have the gall to claim with 100% certainty that qualia exist.

What an idiot. Are you sure you're not from Thornaby?
 
(Yawn)

Hey, Ian, you owe me a billion dollars. I expect payment by tomorrow. After all, can you be absolutely sure that you don't owe me the money?

C'mon, get moving! A billion dollars is a lot to raise in one day.
 
Ian, kindly stop with this qualia derail and try to have some degree of consistency.

My objection is to people declaring they know that no Narnia type worlds exist.

So my objection is that people are saying they know things, and that I must prove that a Narnia type world exists in order to show they don't know it. The stupidity of this is quite frankly beyond belief.

And from his opening post of this thread:
Let's keep this simple and concentrate on one of these things that Dawkin's apparently knows doesn't exist; namely Narnia. What arguments does Dawkin's come out with that another world like Narnia, only accessible through magic, doesn't exist? Does he actually come out with any arguments for this assertion? If not are there any half decent arguments against the existence of worlds/Universes like Narnia?

Yet somehow Ian comes up with this:
Yes of course no one has made the assertion that Narnia type worlds are friggin impossible!!

So why the bloody hell does it keep coming up all the time when no damn person -- least of all myself -- has ever remotely suggested that anyone has said this??

Get it through that concrete block you call your skull.

I have never said that anyone --least of all Dawkins -- has said a Narnia world is impossible!

How many times must I repeat myself?

Sorry, I must have missed something or maybe my qualia are playing up? (note to self: make appointment with doctor to get some ointment)

Who's the idiot, Ian?
 
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Ian, you really are a class apart in the moronic stakes. You start a thread complaining that Dawkins is an arse for stating with certainty that he knew Narnia did not exist (which he didn't anyway) and then you have the gall to claim with 100% certainty that qualia exist.

What an idiot. Are you sure you're not from Thornaby?

Yes I live there.
 
I really can't be bothered to discuss this subject. I'm writing about it extensively for my website which I haven't contributed to for about 2 months. If people wish I can paste in what I've put so far on this particular issue (certainly not the 8,000 words I've done so far, just part of it). But I'm not going to discuss it on here. I should spend my time writing it up for my website where I explain myself in detail rather then wasting my time on here on a patchy job where no one understands what I'm talking about.
 
Ian, kindly stop with this qualia derail and try to have some degree of consistency.



And from his opening post of this thread:


Yet somehow Ian comes up with this:


Sorry, I must have missed something or maybe my qualia are playing up? (note to self: make appointment with doctor to get some ointment)

Who's the idiot, Ian?

I don't understand what you think is inconsistent. Are you anotehr one who can't understand the difference between knowing X doesn't exist and saying the existence of X is impossible?
 
I really can't be bothered to discuss this subject. I'm writing about it extensively for my website which I haven't contributed to for about 2 months. If people wish I can paste in what I've put so far on this particular issue (certainly not the 8,000 words I've done so far, just part of it). But I'm not going to discuss it on here. I should spend my time writing it up for my website where I explain myself in detail rather then wasting my time on here on a patchy job where no one understands what I'm talking about.

Ian, please trust your instincts on this one - spend all of your time working on your website and none of it on this forum.

There is absolutely no need for you to paste anything that you're written.

Qualia freak.
 
Indeed I don't believe in the existence of any other physical worlds. Yet I am required to prove they exist to show that your statement that you know they don't exist is unjustified.

Jesus, are you for real??

What, not even Venus? You can see that with your own eyes.

What a moron.
 
Anyway I can't be bothered to talk about this. You're completely off your trolley. You are an utterly stupid individual and I simply have no interest in talking to you. I might as well be talking to a brick wall.

You're on ignore.
Oops. You got thrashed again, didn't you Ian. This happens with a great degree of regularity. Does this tell you anything?
PixyMisa said:
Well, that was productive.
Actually, it was. I feel more educated now.
 
Interesting Ian said:
Consciousness and qualia are one and the very same thing.

Qualia is consciousness.

Consciousness is qualia.

They are different names for precisely the same existent.

Qualia: A property, such as whiteness, considered independently from things having the property.

How does that equate with the mind ?

Interesting Ian said:
You agreed that if consciousness exists (qualia) then materialism is by definition false.

This is indeed the case :)

That's ridiculous.

Interesting Ian said:
I haven't read that link. But it seems rather lengthy. Could you quote the bits that you agree with?

That's the same thing HypnoPsi said. Please read it. I don't like to quote things out of context.

Interesting Ian said:
WOW! I've just read the first 2 paragraphs -- all of 4 sentences. Sorry, the guy hasn't got a F**king clue!

Obviously, you're just saying that because he doesn't agree with you. Unless you can simply read the damn thing, I'll assume you are close-minded. I mean, it's obvious you don't have a clue either.

The fact (if it is indeed a fact) that the mind or consciousness arises from the brain, gives absolutely no reason whatsoever to suppose that the mind is what the brain does.

Er... that's the same thing, Ian.
 

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