CapelDodger
Penultimate Amazing
"We" includes me.
How do pagans celebrate Christmas?
- Thread starter kurious_kathy
- Start date
OK OK I"m blushing here at the comments.
I'm going to kind of come to Kathys defense, well not really...
some people use their Christian beliefs as a coat of armor. This sort of "I'm a Xian, I know the answer, YOU DON'T, but let ME tell YOU." It's a sort of feeling of pride in being persecuted. Many of the early saints suffered from the same problem, many of these saints have since been "demoted" by the Catholic church. In many fundamentalist churches and belief systems these days the only way you can stand out, and say "look at me" if you are a female is to act like Kathy. sort of like the nuns that suffered from posession (a lot) in Medieval times. It's a sin of pride. I know I have often suffered from the sin of pride myself, and it's a failing of many a Xian. It's patting yourself on the back, in the name of Jesus. It's why I always like to say, "Be good for nothing." It's a joke, but it's true, and one reason why I get along so well with atheists. They ARE good for nothing, and very much better and good than I even imagined.
I can't believe there was a time in my life when I was shocked when someone told me they were an atheist. I sadly did not know enough atheists to make a correct judgement. I didn't think they were bad, but I thought they were missing so much in their lives. Since I've joined JREF, I've learned that so many people here are unselfish, giving, loving, supportive and caring - and for "NOTHING". Not for a reward in heaven, not for brownie points with God, not because some higher being told them to do good works, not because they were afraid of a God...
I believe the reason WE cannot judge is that no one human can see into all the hearts and minds of all humans. Only God can judge, and if He sees only a minute amount of the good, and I mean good in it's purest most unselfish form, that I've seen from the posters on this forum, well I can't help but hope that He is going to have a lot of confused atheists around in heaven! I've stated I'm not going unless Mr.Randi comes too! And I've got a lot of evidence why he should be first in line!
It's not up to me to judge or not judge, who would even want that job? It's not up to me to convert or not convert. You know, you can't convert people Kathy, it's up to a higher power. You have to take care of yourself first. If this is what you feel called to do, then I'm sorry for you. I rather think there are better ways to spend your time, and can only think that you might be suffering from some false pride here. I just picture you bragging that you take on the atheists online. First off, kind of safe don't you think? Now if you signed up for TAM, and then talked to these people nicely and with all the reasoning you can manage, that would be something! Sure you would be insulted and probably not very welcome, but then again, not many of the early Xians were welcomed when they showed up. If you want to be a martyr, do it the old fashioned way. There are Xians that attend TAM. We take a few hits, but we smile and we bounce back, because they really aren't aimed at us personally. I find I'm treated with great respect and so are the other Xians. But YOU HAVE TO DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU. Mind you, that's found in the the great code of Alexandria and in about every other religion on Earth. I'm taking it you are getting quite a rush from behaving as you are and then being "abused" back (though it is quite tame abuse back). Are you converting people here, or are you getting a feeling of racking up the brownie points?
End of Xian psychology lesson 101.
I'm going to kind of come to Kathys defense, well not really...
some people use their Christian beliefs as a coat of armor. This sort of "I'm a Xian, I know the answer, YOU DON'T, but let ME tell YOU." It's a sort of feeling of pride in being persecuted. Many of the early saints suffered from the same problem, many of these saints have since been "demoted" by the Catholic church. In many fundamentalist churches and belief systems these days the only way you can stand out, and say "look at me" if you are a female is to act like Kathy. sort of like the nuns that suffered from posession (a lot) in Medieval times. It's a sin of pride. I know I have often suffered from the sin of pride myself, and it's a failing of many a Xian. It's patting yourself on the back, in the name of Jesus. It's why I always like to say, "Be good for nothing." It's a joke, but it's true, and one reason why I get along so well with atheists. They ARE good for nothing, and very much better and good than I even imagined.
I can't believe there was a time in my life when I was shocked when someone told me they were an atheist. I sadly did not know enough atheists to make a correct judgement. I didn't think they were bad, but I thought they were missing so much in their lives. Since I've joined JREF, I've learned that so many people here are unselfish, giving, loving, supportive and caring - and for "NOTHING". Not for a reward in heaven, not for brownie points with God, not because some higher being told them to do good works, not because they were afraid of a God...
I believe the reason WE cannot judge is that no one human can see into all the hearts and minds of all humans. Only God can judge, and if He sees only a minute amount of the good, and I mean good in it's purest most unselfish form, that I've seen from the posters on this forum, well I can't help but hope that He is going to have a lot of confused atheists around in heaven! I've stated I'm not going unless Mr.Randi comes too! And I've got a lot of evidence why he should be first in line!
It's not up to me to judge or not judge, who would even want that job? It's not up to me to convert or not convert. You know, you can't convert people Kathy, it's up to a higher power. You have to take care of yourself first. If this is what you feel called to do, then I'm sorry for you. I rather think there are better ways to spend your time, and can only think that you might be suffering from some false pride here. I just picture you bragging that you take on the atheists online. First off, kind of safe don't you think? Now if you signed up for TAM, and then talked to these people nicely and with all the reasoning you can manage, that would be something! Sure you would be insulted and probably not very welcome, but then again, not many of the early Xians were welcomed when they showed up. If you want to be a martyr, do it the old fashioned way. There are Xians that attend TAM. We take a few hits, but we smile and we bounce back, because they really aren't aimed at us personally. I find I'm treated with great respect and so are the other Xians. But YOU HAVE TO DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU. Mind you, that's found in the the great code of Alexandria and in about every other religion on Earth. I'm taking it you are getting quite a rush from behaving as you are and then being "abused" back (though it is quite tame abuse back). Are you converting people here, or are you getting a feeling of racking up the brownie points?
End of Xian psychology lesson 101.
AnotherSillyAlias
Graduate Poster
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If I had the resources to go to TAM I would gladly buy you any lunch you fancied and any beverages of your choice just for the chance to talk about this sort of stuff with you for a few minutes. It would be sooooooo good to discuss religion with somebody who seems so .. well... sane as you!
Didn't Jesus say something to the holier-than-thous about showing off?
I doubt that.
kurious_kathy
Master Poster
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I'm sorry if you feel I'm showing off. I just had such an encounter with the one true living God...I care about it.
And I'm not fibbing when I tell you I've had much surgery in my life already. I'm not bionic yet? But they have put quite a few screws and plates in my body that....well lets just say I feel a bit old for my age.
And I would just like to say I'm sorry if I have offended some of you the way I titled this thread. It's too late to rename it...but I would have done better to title it..."How do non-Christians celebrate Christmas. I hope you will accept my apology for seeming too judgemental in my choice of words.
kurious_kathy
Master Poster
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Actually I wasn't knowledgable of how many atheists there were here until I started w/ some posts here. Seems I got someone offended right away when I made a comment on one of their threads. After God turned me around from some of my past new age beliefs, I can't even keep myself quiet. I believe I got yelled at by fowlsound to go start a new thread...so I did. I asked why the gospel is such an offense and it all started getting pretty intence from the start. I was not trying to offend people coming in full force like that but I am on fire for the Lord and want to talk about His goodness. Guess that's really hard for non-believers. Please forgive me if I am coming across too prideful, I am not purposely trying to do that. And I think some here are upset that I haven't answered all their questions. I am not the one who has all the answers. I just wish intellectual people would include the Bible in there list of important books to study. I'm sure some do.
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kmortis
Biomechanoid, Director of IDIOCY (Region 13)
KK,
Most intellectual people do include the Bible on their list of important books. If you want to try to understand the mindset of a full third of the world's population, you have to start there. The thing is, we don't stop there. I've read the Bible (cover-to-cover, NIV, KJV, RSV and Amplified), the Koran, the Compassionate Teachings of Buddah, the Tao Te Ching, the Annals of COnfucious and so on. Why? Because a) when i stopped being a Christian, I searched for "something" anf that search led to the other religions and b) again, if you want to start to understand a culture's mindset, you have to start with thier important books.
Here's a few friendly suggestions.
1) Learn to type. The random? question marks and multiple exclaimation marks just make you look like a nutter. I don't know if you've noticed, but most on Firestream don't do that either.
2) Learn to discuss. If someone asks you a question, answer it. If you can give an extra-Biblical source, go for it. I'll warn you tho, we do fact check here, so if your source is shaky, either don't use it or be prepared for the onslaught that will occur.
3) Learn that this isn't the Theology section of Firestream. The Bible isn't the end-all-be-all over here. IF you wave it around like it was, well...you've seen what will happen then, haven't you?
I think that'll do for now. If you can learn these rules, then we might start to get along better.
Oh, how disingenuous of you, Kathy.
You absolutely wanted to offend people, and you did. Good job, that. I guess your god will be happy now. After all, didn't he want you to bother everyone with your idiocy? I'm sure he did.
Here, have a lollipop. You seem to need to suck on something.
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Genesius
Apathetic Agnostic
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Kathy, since neither you nor Christian Dude have bothered stopping by the "Faithlessness" thread to answer questions, allow me to copy one here:
So what's your answer, Kathy? How can an omnibenevolent God show less mercy towards his creations than a flawed and weak human?
sophia8
Master Poster
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I'd add to that:
4) Read some good Christian blogs. It's always good to get another veiwpoint; also, you sound like you're not too well-informed about Christian theology (the Rapture, for instance, is very much fringe theology and not part of the Bible), and some of them contain amazing amounts of good theological explanations. The one I always take time to read is The Slacktavist - and he's got some other good ones on his blogroll. Here's an excerpt from one of his latest posts (which, for some reason, made me think of you):
http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2005/12/lb_the_rise_of_.html
I'm a pagan - NOT just a non-Christian, but a follower of the Old Religion. Reading Fred's blog makes me think there might be something worthwhile in Christianity.
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UrsulaV
Muse
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As I said in t'other thread, but will reiterate--if you're trying, we'll assume with the best of intentions, to save people's souls from damnation, coming in "on fire for the Lord" and offending people right and left is absolutely the WORST way you could do it. You come across as representing the very worst of Christianity, the bits that a lot of us saw and fled long ago.
If there was a Satan, he'd be ecstatic with your posts, because they've successfully made a lot of people even LESS likely to accept Christianity, simply because they don't want to be associated with any religion where people act like THAT. People see a proud, offensive, close-minded person who won't even answer any of their questions--even to say "I don't know!" and it drives them even farther from Christianity than they would be otherwise. You are, in short, doin' such a poor job witnessing that you're actually doin' the devil's work. Doubtless he will be sending you a thank-you card shortly, on official hell stationary.*
However.
It doesn't have to be like that. And if you'd stop and think about what you're dealing with, you can still change how you're coming across, and maybe do some good for your cause.
You're dealing with smart, well-read, thoughtful people, people with minds like diamond hammers, people who can chop logic down so fine that you could use it to season jello.** People who are often very miffed at Christianity for perfectly valid reasons that you are completely unaware of. And then you belittle those reasons and wave a Bible around. This does not make people inclined to listen to you--it makes them unhappy and mad, and what they see is a Christian using Christianity to make unhappy and mad.
Converting people like this isn't like a revival meeting. You aren't preaching to the choir. Raving about being on fire for God doesn't do anything. You have to smart, and sensible, and eloquent and courteous. You have to provide a good example of how a Christian should be. You have to discuss, and debate, and answer questions. If you don't have the answers, that doesn't mean you ignore the questions! It means you say "I don't know, let's talk about how it could work." You have to be humble enough to admit ignorance, and open-minded enough to talk about things you don't know without screaming "BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO!"
Another polite person, of any faith, willing to join a debate and spend time and effort talking is always worthwhile, and will almost always be welcomed. But it's awfully hard, and you'd have to learn how to talk to people so they want to listen.
*Red, nice paper, warm to the touch. Has "From the Desk of Lucifer" printed across the top, and a cute little smilin' goat logo that bears an unsettling resemblance to the Elmer's cow.
**I'm not one of them, per se, but I've seen 'em in action.
If there was a Satan, he'd be ecstatic with your posts, because they've successfully made a lot of people even LESS likely to accept Christianity, simply because they don't want to be associated with any religion where people act like THAT. People see a proud, offensive, close-minded person who won't even answer any of their questions--even to say "I don't know!" and it drives them even farther from Christianity than they would be otherwise. You are, in short, doin' such a poor job witnessing that you're actually doin' the devil's work. Doubtless he will be sending you a thank-you card shortly, on official hell stationary.*
However.
It doesn't have to be like that. And if you'd stop and think about what you're dealing with, you can still change how you're coming across, and maybe do some good for your cause.
You're dealing with smart, well-read, thoughtful people, people with minds like diamond hammers, people who can chop logic down so fine that you could use it to season jello.** People who are often very miffed at Christianity for perfectly valid reasons that you are completely unaware of. And then you belittle those reasons and wave a Bible around. This does not make people inclined to listen to you--it makes them unhappy and mad, and what they see is a Christian using Christianity to make unhappy and mad.
Converting people like this isn't like a revival meeting. You aren't preaching to the choir. Raving about being on fire for God doesn't do anything. You have to smart, and sensible, and eloquent and courteous. You have to provide a good example of how a Christian should be. You have to discuss, and debate, and answer questions. If you don't have the answers, that doesn't mean you ignore the questions! It means you say "I don't know, let's talk about how it could work." You have to be humble enough to admit ignorance, and open-minded enough to talk about things you don't know without screaming "BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO!"
Another polite person, of any faith, willing to join a debate and spend time and effort talking is always worthwhile, and will almost always be welcomed. But it's awfully hard, and you'd have to learn how to talk to people so they want to listen.
*Red, nice paper, warm to the touch. Has "From the Desk of Lucifer" printed across the top, and a cute little smilin' goat logo that bears an unsettling resemblance to the Elmer's cow.
**I'm not one of them, per se, but I've seen 'em in action.
Christian Dude
Scholar
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I don’t think Kathy will mind if tell all of you this. Kathy has had two major surgeries on her spine. She has a congenital condition, and had two major accidents in her life that worsened the condition. One a serious fall, the other a car accident. She has had two discs fused in her lower back and has a plate screwed to her spine in her lower back as well.
She has just recently under gone a procedure to determine the correct course of treatment for a serious condition in her neck that causes her to be in constant pain. This condition seems to be congenital, and then was exacerbated when Kathy was assaulted in a situation I will let Kathy share with you if she chooses. The condition she faces in her neck is a complete deterioration of the discs. Because of her experiences and belief, she will not use mind altering or addictive medication to manage the pain. She can get the edge taken off the pain with the use of some less powerful medications, and through inactivity and rest. Her doctor has stated he believes her best chance to live a life with less physical pain is to have three vertebrae fused together in her neck.
Kathy also destroyed her ankle about two years ago in another accident and has the plate and screws mentioned there. The problem with her neck is the serious one she faces right now.
I think we would find many of us here have had serious illnesses and accidents. Being human, includes being open to all those nasty illnesses and accidents.
I remember when I was ill the shock of finding so many others had also gone through or were going through a serious illness. I also learned how to conduct myself through my illnesses from others that behaved with such dignity and humor through their own.
I think finding all that we have in common, including celebrating a holiday that for some has religious meaning, and for others cultural meaning, is important. Christmas is now more than a religious holiday, much in the same way other holidays have changed. Halloween isn't all that pagen anymore! Valentines Day is for letting everyone you love know you love them, not just a boyfriend/girlfriend. Martin Luther King day is about all Civil Rights movements.
Christmas is about giving and receiving. It's a time for many not only of remembering the birth of a baby, but remembering your great aunt Louise with a scarf. Or your mom with a new bracelet you know she is going to love, or your husband with that new CD you've been denying him for months ("No, you are not going to get that greatest hits album to annoy me with!" heheheh, he's going to be so happy when he opens it). It's about smiling and making others smile. I can't help but think that little baby would approve!
I remember when I was ill the shock of finding so many others had also gone through or were going through a serious illness. I also learned how to conduct myself through my illnesses from others that behaved with such dignity and humor through their own.
I think finding all that we have in common, including celebrating a holiday that for some has religious meaning, and for others cultural meaning, is important. Christmas is now more than a religious holiday, much in the same way other holidays have changed. Halloween isn't all that pagen anymore! Valentines Day is for letting everyone you love know you love them, not just a boyfriend/girlfriend. Martin Luther King day is about all Civil Rights movements.
Christmas is about giving and receiving. It's a time for many not only of remembering the birth of a baby, but remembering your great aunt Louise with a scarf. Or your mom with a new bracelet you know she is going to love, or your husband with that new CD you've been denying him for months ("No, you are not going to get that greatest hits album to annoy me with!" heheheh, he's going to be so happy when he opens it). It's about smiling and making others smile. I can't help but think that little baby would approve!
slingblade
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I don't wish ill on Kathy, and am sorry she undergoes so much pain. I know what constant, chronic pain is, and how debilitating, and yes, unfair, it can be.
What I am about to say will sound cruel, yet it is not my cruelty, but the cruelty of belief.
Kathy, having faith, need only pray, and God will heal her body and mend her pain. Why has this not happened? There are a limited number of possible answers.
1. She has not prayed for healing.
2. She has prayed, but it is God's will that she suffer.
3. She has prayed, but she has a flaw she has not mended, and so God cannot heal her until she does so.
4. There is no God, and she is engaging in wishful thinking when she prays.
My experience with chronic pain alone, never mind the rest of my life, leads me to #4.
It is possible she hasn't bothered to pray for healing (#1), but Christians are exhorted to do just that (see verse below). Reaching God through prayer is, in fact, one of the membership benefits of Christianity. It's one of the big selling points...well, that and the whole "redemption from hell" thing.
If it is God's will that she should suffer (#2), I find it insufferably cruel, and also against the bible:
That says very plainly that God doesn't want his children to suffer, and it says he can and will ease suffering. I see no conditions or requirements to be met, other than simply asking. So why doesn't God keep this promise?
I was often told that the reason God could not/would not heal me was that my faith was lacking (#3). Observe the mustard seed, how infinitesimal it is. I had at least that much faith. Christ said that was all I needed.
Yeah, well....that and a dollar or two can get you a cup of coffee.
I understand not taking certain medicines if to do so puts one at risk for dependency on them. But I don't understand it if one is refusing them simply because they are, in and of themselves, sinful.
If to take them means she will resume an addiciton, that's a good reason not to take them. But if she refuses them because God said it was a sin, then God better get on the stick and heal her himself, or else shut up about sin and let her have the medication. Otherwise, your god is torturing you. Deliberately.
I have great empathy for anyone's suffering. I've done more than my share of it. I'm sorry Kathy hurts. I also understand what it's like to have everything seem to work against you. "I can't take pain pills, because I used to be an addict, and I can't risk re-addiction." I get that; it's a real concern. There are operations that can cut certain nerves and ease pain, but they don't always work, and they're pricey, too. Or she can get the vertebra fused, but maybe she can't afford that: another obstacle she can't help. Maybe she needs to risk the addiction and take the pain pills while under a closely managed system of care? Again, that may not be possible, or affordable.
But the bible says that God can fix all of this.
And I can only ask: if he exists, then why hasn't he?
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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Roadtoad
Bufo Caminus Inedibilis
Genesius
Apathetic Agnostic
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Anyone here not surprised that neither Christian Dude nor Kurious_Kathy have answered my question above?
And CD, if Kathy has so many problems, why doesn't she simply pray for healing? After all, in John 14:13-14 we read
And CD, if Kathy has so many problems, why doesn't she simply pray for healing? After all, in John 14:13-14 we read
It's all so simple! Just pray for healing in Jesus' name, and if he doesn't heal you he's broken his promise! Not much of a Messiah then, is he?
Doubt (questioning) has gotten me a direct answer from CD. Thank-you CD for your direct response.
So you two know each other. Hmmm.