How can the world forgive Germany?

[Monketi Ghost]

There's no doubt that the German people are very nice, and I stated no case that can be defended.

Just finished watching part 2 of The Final Solution. There are more in-depth interviews with people, the fuller interviews that were excerpted from for the series.

It says that Himmler's adjutant refused to participate in any atrocities, despite threats, and was indeed cleared by the Nuremberg trial, and made an honorary member of the Auschwitz Survivors group.

Explains why he's interviewed at his home and not in chains.

Crazy though- the documentary actually gives a fig about how tragically difficult it was for SS guard/executioners to "shoot so many unarmed civilians."

 

[Dcdrac]

What was done by the Germans of the past, hideous as it was, the guilt for that should not be laid on the shoulders of the generations born since the criminal regime that enabled and encouraged those crimes had ceased to exist and a new Germany has arisen one I hasten to add is more democratic and freedom loving than the UK. I lived there for five years and of the two countries i prefer Germany.

I have too have read about how traumatized the SS Guards were, when they shot their victims, it did not stop them doing it, and it was a spur to the creation of the gas chambers, a means to make it easier for the murderers to kill without having to face their victims.

We do know that Nazi Germany got a lot of help from the collaborationist regimes of occupied Europe and it happened in the Channel Islands too the local authorities helped the deportations there as well. I have little doubt an Oswald Mosely led fascist government in the UK would have done the same.

 

[Belz...]

Correct. It is a statement.

An unsupported one, yes.

 

[Belz...]

Well Jimbob I think Math is not spelt 'Maths' but that aside, my question 'by who's reckoning' is not answered.

I already answered it but true to form you've ignored the relevant posts and sentences, and focused on the easy ones.

I ask again: In a large population, how much % of people do you expect to be below average IQ, and how many do you expect to be above ?

 

[Dinwar]

To be clear, the underlying attitude is the connection. Hench the phrase I used.

Symbology leaves a trail. Those symbols are vitally important to those using them.

Nonsense. They derived from the same source--the Romans. Shared history is the connection, not the underlying attitudes.

If you're incapable of seeing that, we really can't place much stock in anything else you have to say on the topic.

 

[Navigator]

Nonsense. They derived from the same source--the Romans. Shared history is the connection, not the underlying attitudes.

If you're incapable of seeing that, we really can't place much stock in anything else you have to say on the topic.

Sure. The methods changed somewhat. Perhaps Christianity had something to do with that, but the attitude to dominate still persisted and if you want folk to believe underlying attitudes and agendas were not involved go right ahead. Makes no difference to the truth. Columbus did not 'discover America' and nor was it an unpopulated land.

Such attitudes did not give a toss about such 'minor' details. That is because of the Agenda.

The connections are there and only a turned blind eye would chose not to acknowledge that. You could do with some integrity in relation to this Dinwar. 'The same source is the attitude.' The symbols were part of that process.

Pretending otherwise is bad enough. Being outspokenly in denial is that much worse.

 

[Navigator]

Myths are fictional stories that demonstrate deep truths.

Example please.

 

[Navigator]

By the way, and not wishing to derail this thread back onto Jews, but a person is either Jewish by birth, or not at all, as far as I understand. It's a tribe thing.

And many Jews before the war were atheists, or at least completely secular in life style, and lots of liberal and progressive thinking came from them. Talk of a monolithic "Jew" character is nothing short of racism, simple as that. Same as talk of "the Germans" and "the world" is just hot air obscuring a shortening of the mind which reduces everything and everyone to a flat symbol of no use, and no meaning, at all.

I am of the opinion that Jews probably don't exactly know or have different understandings as to what a 'Jew' is.
Nazis probably murdered many people they decided were 'Jews' for reasons other than religion or whatever else makes a Jew 'Jew'.

It is not like anyone self identifying as a 'Jew' has participated in this thread to help sort the confusion. Right now I feel that if someone told me they were a 'Jew' I would say 'What of it?' What does it matter? How is that important?
How is that somehow different for you? Why do you chose to self identify that way?

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

I am of the opinion that Jews probably don't exactly know or have different understandings as to what a 'Jew' is.
Nazis probably murdered many people they decided were 'Jews' for reasons other than religion or whatever else makes a Jew 'Jew'.

It is not like anyone self identifying as a 'Jew' has participated in this thread to help sort the confusion. Right now I feel that if someone told me they were a 'Jew' I would say 'What of it?' What does it matter? How is that important?
How is that somehow different for you? Why do you chose to self identify that way?

The reason nobody has bothered to answer your "what a 'Jew' is" question is because the very question is stupid and off-topic.

Against my better judgement I'll attempt to answer your question.

"A Jew" can refer to a person who is a descendent to some degree or another of a particular ethnic group or it can refer to a member of a religion normally associated with that ethnic group. A member of the genetic cohort is not required to follow the religion, nor are members of other genetic cohorts prevented from joining the religion.

For reasons best discussed in some other thread "Jews" became the scapegoats for a multitude of problems in Europe. Many non-Jewish people were rounded up along with actual Jewish people for a variety of reasons including mistaken identity, interpersonal vendettas and over-reliance on poorly conceived metrics to identify "secret" Jews.

Please stop trying to turn this into a "Jews had it coming" thread if that is what you are doing. If it isn't, please be aware that your posts come off that way.

 

[CaptainHowdy]

The reason nobody has bothered to answer your "what a 'Jew' is" question is because the very question is stupid and off-topic.

Against my better judgement I'll attempt to answer your question.

"A Jew" can refer to a person who is a descendent to some degree or another of a particular ethnic group or it can refer to a member of a religion normally associated with that ethnic group. A member of the genetic cohort is not required to follow the religion, nor are members of other genetic cohorts prevented from joining the religion.

For reasons best discussed in some other thread "Jews" became the scapegoats for a multitude of problems in Europe. Many non-Jewish people were rounded up along with actual Jewish people for a variety of reasons including mistaken identity, interpersonal vendettas and over-reliance on poorly conceived metrics to identify "secret" Jews.

Please stop trying to turn this into a "Jews had it coming" thread if that is what you are doing. If it isn't, please be aware that your posts come off that way.

There are two problems with trying to answer the "what is a Jew?" question. The first is that the Jewish community itself does not have a consistent definition of "a Jew" so no JREFer can claim to have one. The second is that the question isn't even tangential to the OP. "What is a Jew?" "Have the Jewish people suffered from prejudice and persecution?" "Did the Jewish people invite prejudice and persecution through their behavior?" are all questions that I'm sure would make for some lively conversation. But they're not relevant here.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Are any points of my answer specifically wrong or is my answer incomplete? I ask as an Anglo-Irish mutt raised in '70s Boise where the only minorities in my jr. high were the black children of an airline pilot. They had to import some Hmong just to give us some "other" to mock.

 

[MRC_Hans]

In another thread I'd mentioned watching the series The World at War.

It's appalling what the Nazis did, in every country they occupied. It's horrible that so many German citizens ignored it, or were happy to benefit from it.

I understand that an entire generation had been conditioned by Nazi propaganda to think Jewish people inferior, and the German people naturally better.

But the systematic atrocities. The infrastructure and bureaucracy built to carry out those atrocities.

Combined with the war just two decades gone by... how can the world ever forgive the German people??

Late comer, haven't read the thread. Still:

If you blame a people or a nation for what members of that people or nation have done in the past, then you are making the same mistake as the nazis did (albeit probably on a more beneign scale).

1) The Germans guilty in WW2 are either dead or too old to matter.

2) Experiments show that normally decent people can be put in a situation where they will commit atrocities.

The task is not to forgive, but to learn: How can we avoid putting people in a situation where they will do evil deeds?

Hans

 

[dudalb]

This thread got me thinking about George Washington and how we compartmentalize when when we want someone to be a hero and put some pretty horrific things off in a corner to be ignored. Washington was one of the biggest slaveholders of his day. People excuse this by saying that he lived in a different time and such practices were normal and commonplace in those days. But nobody ever uses this kind of thinking to excuse the Nazis, even though they too lived in a different time with different norms.

Washngton was a slaveholder..and very conflicted about it...but he was not one of the biggest slaveholders of the day..not even close. he owned a moderate number of slaves compared to some planters.
That does not make it any better,but I believe that accuracy has it;s own virtues.

 

[dudalb]

Symbology leaves a trail.

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/76/Romeinse_vlag.jpg/305px-Romeinse_vlag.jpg[/qimg]


[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Seal_Of_The_President_Of_The_United_States_Of_America.svg/600px-Seal_Of_The_President_Of_The_United_States_Of_America.svg.png[/qimg]



[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Parteiadler_der_Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpartei_%281933%E2%80%931945%29.svg/800px-Parteiadler_der_Nationalsozialistische_Deutsche_Arbeiterpartei_%281933%E2%80%931945%29.svg.png[/qimg]



Nothing the Nazi did hadn't been done before. The Nazi era simply used the available science and technology. That was new. The attitude wielding the weapons wasn't.


It is obvious that 'Nazi' wasn't really anything new, any more than white supremacy and its aversion to getting its own way through any means it could, is.

Indeed it is quite obvious that any hue of race is capable of extreme evil against others.

The question of forgiveness is most obviously one for those who feel they have been adversely affected by past atrocities and requires contrition on the part of the offender in order that respect can be found.

No contrition indicates no respect.

In relation to forgiving, it is best understood that it can be achieved without contrition from the offending party but that this simply means that respect will never be granted to that which would remain haughty and above remorse. It does not matter that the offenders are in a position of power over those they practice(d) their evil upon. No genuine respect can ever be granted to such.

It is obvious that the evolution of human society has had at its prow the racially based signature of bloodshed, mass killings, genocide, false treaties, and every other tool suitable for the purpose of subjugation of other races and cultures and for whatever reason the 'white' races were able to make an exact science out of the whole process.

It is equally understandable that all things human came from what can be regarded as savage ancestry and in some ways quite understandable that the god ideas created and used also as a tool for this taming of savagery were a natural extension of this process.

People bemoan the historical existence of modern America and its willingness to interfere with certain cultures who bully weaker cultures and it certainly can't be denied that Nazi-like methods had a part to play in American history but the reality is that the Nazi wished to dominate the whole world and the whole world said '**** you Nazis' and ********** them good.

A conglomeration of parties who know well the art of bulling brought the Nazi regime to its death.

So we have a history which is brutal to look at and hard to forgive. Certain attitudes prevail which are condescending and patronizing. It is unknown if the end justifies the means because it is unknown as to what exactly 'the end' is in relation to history. What are the humans who are in controlling positions wanting out of all this?

Apparently the focus is on space exploration, and further resource gathering 'out there'.

And there are plenty of other countries that use the Eagle as a symbol,like Poland and Russia (though Russia's is doubled headed.)
As one of my college profs said,you have to very cautious in studying and using symbolism,because if are clever, you can make any damn symbol stadn for any damn thing you want.

 

[Navigator]

First off yes Jews are relevant to this thread. The very topic "How can the world forgive Germany" and the OP accompanying that most definitely make the subject of Jews part of the topic.

That 'Jews had it coming to them' is read into my posts is a fallacy on the part of the interpreter. Calling me 'anti-semitic' because I ask relevant questions regarding 'what is a Jew' or 'what do people mean when they call themselves "Jews"', and such unsupported allegations against me (calling me 'anti-semitic') are slanderous in nature and meaningless as a method for educating. I would thank those who have done so to STFU, especially if you are not a self identifying Jew. If you are, then please explain why you have the need to make such allegations.

Otherwise cease with that BS. It is simply crap to claim that the question 'what do people mean when they self identify as being Jew?' is 'stupid'.

It is not a case of anti semitism to mistake 'a Jew' for being something monolithic. Racism has nothing to do with it.

I know what an Israeli is, like I know what a German is. If a 'Jew' is a number of 'things' why is it somehow an evil thing to ask - to seek clarity?

Why is the knee jerk reaction to flay ones arms and make allegations of anti-semitism? Why even is it 'okay' for anti theists to make derogatory statements about Islam and Christianity but not about Judaism?

Why is it acceptable to point fingers at 'Germans' when it was 'Nazis' which did those particular horrors. And WHY is it so hard for people to understand that the attitude which propelled Nazism is no different than the attitudes which built nations by stealing land from those who occupied that land first, and subjugated those peoples to attempted genocide and the survivors to bear the brunt of those atrocious attitudes as 'inferiors'?

What is the difference between ruling class attitudes, winners writing history and teaching that as 'truth', treating other human beings as inferiors due to their gender, sexual preferences, race, or size of their bank balances/how much they own in assets? What exactly is the difference between those attitudes and those the Nazi portrayed?

 

[Navigator]

Late comer, haven't read the thread. Still:

If you blame a people or a nation for what members of that people or nation have done in the past, then you are making the same mistake as the nazis did (albeit probably on a more beneign scale).

1) The Germans guilty in WW2 are either dead or too old to matter.

2) Experiments show that normally decent people can be put in a situation where they will commit atrocities.

The task is not to forgive, but to learn: How can we avoid putting people in a situation where they will do evil deeds?

Hans

This is far more relevant. The task is to forgive if indeed you have some problem with the German people and wish to find a way to work through that.
The fact of the matter is that Germany makes that task so much easier because they have consistently displayed contrition. They have not denied the atrocities and are ashamed of their ancestors for those atrocities. But they do not have to account for things others did, or be held accountable.

Other countries who's ancestors have done similar things have remained in denial, have not felt the shame or found ways to express true remorse and consistently lied about the past. Sure Germany can;t really lie because the same technological advancement which assisted the sheer size of the atrocities of a very short span of time also shows evidence which is undeniable. It is not just 'hearsay' which can be so easily pooh-poohed as 'irrelevant'. Such attitude is more 'so what' We win and we got away with it (meaning they speak of the atrocities of their forefathers/mothers as if those are completely justifiable and require no compensation. and to which they prospered from and reap the continued benefits of. 'To the victors the spoils go' 'in god we trust, while it is convenient to do so.'

Fortunately the Civilized World is becoming less tolerant of such attitude and finds it counter-productive and is slowly and surely weeding it (the attitude) out of their systems understanding that such attitude is really not at all what true civilization is about, and no civilization built upon such attitude will stand the test of time should it ignore the past atrocities of its fore-bearers.
However that is a battle in itself because those who prospered through inheritance are rich enough to invest in ways to prevent true civilization (in terms of equality for all) from ever becoming a reality.

Some actually seem to equate such a state to nothing more or less than 'the survival of the fittest' - 'too bad losers', 'that is the natural way of evolution...'

How can we avoid putting people in a situation where they will do evil deeds?

Hans

While there is inequality of any sort - any sense of superior attitude comparing itself to the inferior it sees in others, forcing those others to live in less equal circumstances when they could easily help provide better, - any such event created through such attitude, 'evil deeds' will be the result because 'evil deeds' helped to create the situation in the first place.

The world tried it on Germany and the Nazis were manifested as a result and transferred that onto those calling themselves 'Jews' and those they chose to see as 'Jews' aka - anyone not aligned with supporting the Nazi agenda who could be punished for not doing so.

 

[Navigator]

And there are plenty of other countries that use the Eagle as a symbol,like Poland and Russia (though Russia's is doubled headed.)
As one of my college profs said,you have to very cautious in studying and using symbolism,because if are clever, you can make any damn symbol stadn for any damn thing you want.

Well I don;t know much about Polish history but Russia sure has its atrocities.

The Eagle btw is but one such symbol. The connections have to do with the fact that history is linear. Just as children learn from their parents and inherit gains ill gotten or otherwise, adopt those same symbols/practices/attitudes their parents did, for the same reasons, so too are such things traceable and no accident or coincidence as to why they (the symbols) continue to be used - even ones from ancient Egypt have attached to them ancient attitudes passed on like a baton in a relay race from generation to generation.

 

[Wudang]

Nothing wrong with Germans unless they are short Austrians with a sense of destiny.

Can't remember who I'm paraphasing but...

Punch magazine guide to the EEC circa 1977?

 

[dudalb]

Well somebody sure outed himself as having "issues" with the Jews in this thread...

 

[Wudang]

Well somebody sure outed himself as having "issues" with the Jews in this thread...

Oh no. He's just asking questions about why the Jews deserved to suffer the Holocaust. After all there must have been something they did to attract the violence.
The excuse offered by every rape-apologist, wife beater apologist, bully apologist and similar scum for many years. CF "she was asking for it" "well now look what you made me do".