How can peace in Syria be achieved?

[Virus]

Do you recall your source or have the link handy?

Here.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Here.

Okay, the diagnosis was wrong. it was the other wrong that you were. You think it was only sometime after Oct. 14 last year that the first protesters took up fighting? Can you provide a source for that, or were you just mixed up?

Oh and of course it says "the number of people killed since the violence started in March has now exceeded 3,000, including over 180 children." That's at least 180 that weren't protesters, and likely way more if there was any fighting before OCT 14. And I think there was, for a few months at least.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Most estimates put the numbers in the thousands.
Syria death toll hits 33,082 – Security Council inaction encouraging Assad

Nope. Try again.

That is not a mistake. Only reporting what the only groups who have bothered to keep count of how many people have been killed in Syria.

The UN and others have put the number of protesters killed at around 3000 - 5000.

At a time before there was a FSA, before there the Syrians started to fight back against the mass killings by the regime, there were a lot of protests, and thousands of innocent Syrians asking for fair treatment were killed by the regime.

Straw man argument. No one has ever made that claim.

V, TBV, since HB won't answer the question, how many protesters do you think have been killed? He was asked, and answered 33,000 people, making it seem he thought all the dead were protesters. But he says "no one has ever made that claim," so he must have known the figure was for everyone, so therefore he chose deliberately not to answer the question, for just what reason I can't say.

Seriously now, how hard are you going to work to avoid the issues at hand.

No one ever said that 33,000 protesters were killed. That number includes all of the people killed in Syria by the groups who have bothered to count. As was clearly indicated by the first post before you went off on a tangent to ignore any of the issues at hand.

The UN put the number of protesters killed at 3000-5000.

That is another sad excuse for avoiding why you only pay attention to government propaganda, and deem any other contradictory information to be "probably faked."


You don't want to be serious about the topic because you don't want to shatter the black and white, good guy/bay guy blanket ideology that you subscribe to on this.

If you were being genuine, you would have paid genuine attention to the bread line attacks, the artillery attacks, the regime raids, and the aerial bombings.

The fact that you work so hard to ignore anything contradictory or damaging to the side that you support is very telling of your motives.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Hence the irony of the video that you posted. Do you believe even a portion of what they claimed?


Do you think the US is trying to colonize Syria?

Do you think the "same banks that are foreclosing on people around the country are the same banks that want to take over in Syria?"

Do you think that "the most couragous thing was the Iranians peaceful sturggle against the US and the Shaw," while the killing of the peaceful struggle of the Iranians (or the initially peaceful struggle of the Syrians) today against their oppresive government is ok?

Do you agee when the speaker at 56:20 noted that, "the people that are murdering people and destabilizing Syria are in service of the same banks that OWS is protesting against. And there is no equation between the imperialist thugs and the Occupy demonstrators. There are millions of people in this country who have a burning hatred for the super rich and the 1%."


Because it seems to me that if you don't want to repeat history, the first thing is to seriously and genuinely look at the situation instead of living in a crazed fantasy land style thinking.


All of which largely comes down to accountability. The only reason there has been a Syrian crisis at all is because the allies of the Syrian regime decided that their foreign policy interests were more important than to stand up to war crime and major human rights abuses.

The Syrian government in turn received a free pass to kill as many innocent Syrians as they wanted without fear of any repercussions from their allies, and in fact received weapons and support to continue their war against their own people instead.

The only reason that the regime continues to get support from the people who were shown in the video that you posted and on this thread, is because their unquestioning support for the regime is more important to maintain their world views than taking the risk of genuine and honest review of the situation in Syria.

Lol! Funny, someone else posting on this thread comes to mind when I read the words "Blanket blame assertions that ignore any detailed analysis in order to bolster their own personal world views"!

That would be CL and CE. Proven time and time again with their own words.

Wan't it Jesus who said: “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?"

No one is without bias.

We all have bias.

It is our ability to be honest about our own bias and put forth fact based, rational arguments that decides whether our ideas are substantive or not.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Check again the question that preceded your first quote. Maybe it wasn't a mistake, but it was then a deliberate unexplained ecision not to answer the Q.
How many protesters killed?
33,000 people.
So you're not answering?
I just did,
So how many of those were protesters?
33,000 people. You're lazy!

Conversation terminated.

ETA: "The UN put the number of protesters killed at 3000-5000."

I suspect that's wrong too, but it'll be a while before I can check and let you know.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Googled "Syria 3,000 - 5,000 protesters"

her hubby who has recently murdered over 5,000 Syrian protestors.

CNN comment, Aug. 22, 2012

Hover Boarder, hit #2. Not the right formula.

3,000 alone gives us the UN, 3,000 PEOPLE Oct. 14.

5,000 alone leads to UN Dec 13, saying 5,000 PEOPLE killed.

In fact, despite what you and Virus recall, I've never seen the UN specify protesters that I recall. It's always all people. So I'll need a link, if you can find it. Or lose again.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Check again the question that preceded your first quote. Maybe it wasn't a mistake, but it was then a deliberate unexplained ecision not to answer the Q.

So you are not purposefully avoiding the topics? Because it sure as hell seems that way.

The answer that "most estimates put the number of protesters killed in the thousands" was given in the original post. Which is in line with the 3,000 to 5,000 estimate from the UN.


The larger death toll in Syria was also provided, but instead was used as an excuse to go off on a tangent.


Just another straw to grasp at in order to avoid adsressing any of the massive human rights and war crime abuses of the Assad regime.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Googled "Syria 3,000 - 5,000 protesters"


CNN comment, Aug. 22, 2012

Hover Boarder, hit #2. Not the right formula.

3,000 alone gives us the UN, 3,000 PEOPLE Oct. 14.

5,000 alone leads to UN Dec 13, saying 5,000 PEOPLE killed.

In fact, despite what you and Virus recall, I've never seen the UN specify protesters that I recall. It's always all people. So I'll need a link, if you can find it. Or lose again.

That was before the armed uprising.

Who else are they going to kill?

 

[HoverBoarder]

So back to serious discussion of the thread topic (hopefully):

Brahimi is finally going to the two countries in the UN that could end the conflict right now. China a Russia.

Syria peace envoy in new bid to end conflict

Brahimi is expected to come to the UN Security Council in November with new proposals aiming to push President Bashar al-Assad and the Syrian opposition into political talks, UN diplomats told AFP.

The former Algerian foreign minister will head this week for Russia and China — the two leading doubters about international pressure on the Syrian rivals — to discuss the crisis.

I have always said that China would support a viable peace plan that was solid and more likely to work as long as it didn't change the international power structure too much.

Russia in turn knows that the fall of Assad is inevitable, but they mostly want to ensure their financial and military assets in the country, and are making money off of arms sales to the Assad regime in the meantime to hedge their bets.


As long as the peace plan is viable, China would support it, but after two failed UN cease fire plans, they are likely to be more cautious. Russia is similarly going to be very cautious, but they also have a lot more at stake, and are somewhat eager to see an end to the crisis, although also somewhat content at continuing to make so many arms sales.


The three biggest issues on a peace plan for Syria are Syrian specific:

1. Disarming the regime forces and the militias on both sides, including the fighters from Iraq that have joined both sides, Lebanon, and all around the world. As well as getting the varied groups to agree to a peace plan.
   
   
2. Prisoners and mass detention/torture centers. Administering a peace plan would be more complicated beyond getting all of the many sides to agree to it while thousands of people are still being tortured and executed.
   
   
3. Whether war crime abuses will be ignored or pursued. The UN has been keeping a file of war crime abuses from both the regime, as well as rebel groups. This includes many of the people that would need to be involved in the peace negotiations. Especially Assad, and those directly under his power structure. The regime is unlikely to agree to a peace plan if they are immediately going to be put on trial for their war crime abuses (which ironically causes them to carry out more war crimes).

 

[HoverBoarder]

Syria peace envoy in new bid to end conflict

The article I linked to actually makes some very good points about the peace process.

Brahimi faces multiple challenges — Assad’s apparent determination to cling to power, the fractured opposition and arrival of Islamist fighters.

“He has to persuade key countries in the Middle East not to support the rebels with arms,” said the senior UN diplomat, speaking on condition of anonymity.

“But if there is to be Security Council action there has to be agreement from Russia and China,” added the diplomat. “If they don’t agree to action then of course Turkey, Saudi Arabia and western nations will step up their help for the opposition.”

Russia and China have used their powers as permanent Security Council members three times to block resolutions that could have led to Syria sanctions.


“There is a growing sense that the US will ramp up support for the rebels after the presidential elections — whoever wins,” said Gowan at New York University. “Brahimi may have to wait for that to gain leverage.”

Western envoys acknowledge that Russia pressed Assad to agree to the latest ceasefire but do not see President Vladimir Putin abandoning Assad.

Few can see Assad making any agreement that would see him stand down. Brahimi told the Security Council in September that the Syrian president wants to “turn back the clock” to the old regime.

“As soon as the regime decides to stop fighting, decides to bring the tanks to bring the army back to barracks, decides to stop this horrendous crackdown it will fall,” said Mouaz Moustafa, political director of the Syrian Emergency Task Force (SETF), a Syrian-American group, who has just returned from a visit to opposition controlled areas.

“A ceasefire that allows for people protests, it is the death knell for the regime,” he added.

 

[HoverBoarder]

The Russian government controlled propaganda station, RT, is already playing down expectations of Brahimi's meeting with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Monday:

“We believe that the collective work should be carried out under the Geneva communique platform, which was agreed to at the meeting of the action groups on June 30 of this year,” Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Aleksander Lukashevich told the press.

Which could possibly meant that they will not support any peace plan for Syria that Brahimi comes up with, or they could just be tempering expectations or shifting the blame from their support in continuing and perpetuating the Syrian conflict.

Regardless, it shows that it is not going to be an easy meeting for Brahimi in convincing one of the main supporters of the conflict to change course.

It is probably one of the most important meetings that Brahimi will have though. A meeting with the foreign minister of a country that could single handedly end the conflict at any time they wanted to.

 

[Caustic Logic]

So you are not purposefully avoiding the topics? Because it sure as hell seems that way.

The answer that "most estimates put the number of protesters killed in the thousands" was given in the original post. Which is in line with the 3,000 to 5,000 estimate from the UN.

Ooh, you said so in your originial post? And it's supported by what now? I found the links, 3,000 and 5,000 specified, neither time as a number of PROTESTERS. It was people, all. There was no such estimate; your correlation was and remains a false one, no matter how many times you point out that your misreading matches with your previous statement of that misreading. Why you would think otherwise, I cannot say.

The larger death toll in Syria was also provided

as the right answer to the wrong question

, but instead was used as an excuse to go off on a tangent.

That how peace CAN be achieved is less important than how it SHOULD be achieved. That's a moral or ideological call, but one based on one's understanding of facts on the ground. So I can't just sit by and watch you proceed on such vague and uninformed understanding, and possibly helping confuse others.

Just another straw to grasp at in order to avoid adsressing any of the massive human rights and war crime abuses of the Assad regime.

You meant to say "unquestioningly believing" instead of "adsressing," and forgot an "alleged" in there, and put a misplaced "straw man." A lot wrong as usual.

Facts on the ground needing brush-up:
People other than unarmed protesters are included in the Oct-Dec 2011 estimates of 3,000-5,000 people killed. You contend, no way.

That was before the armed uprising.

Who else are they going to kill?

Again, you think rebel armed resistance began only after these points - 3,000 or 5,000 dead, Oct. 14 or Dec. 13, 2011. And everyone killed up to then would by definition be a protester? At least it suggests you DO know what a protester is. That's good to have clarified - they don't cause deaths.

Again, you're far from the mark, and if you think for a moment, you might realize you don't really know, in detail, how you decided on this faulty timeline.

However, the answer is complex exnough it's not ready yet. I'm compiling notes on the subject of when the opposition started defending itself and will post some key points soon. Preview - it was apparently happening within a week of mid-March, and was launching major operations by early June at the latest.

Side-point:

Few can see Assad making any agreement that would see him stand down. Brahimi told the Security Council in September that the Syrian president wants to “turn back the clock” to the old regime.

Who set the clock forward, and on what authority?

 

[Mudcat]

I have a friend I shall call "Phill", he likes to say the best way to achieve peace in the middle east would to sterilize the entire place, nuke it, and make it uninhabitable for the next millennia.

Sometimes I can sort of see his point.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I have a friend I shall call "Phill", he likes to say the best way to achieve peace in the middle east would to sterilize the entire place, nuke it, and make it uninhabitable for the next millennia.

Sometimes I can sort of see his point.

I'm glad sometimes you can't/don't see that point. Well, to see is okay, but ... It's a lazy and awful attitude. Yeah, it gets complicated - all Human things do, especially the Middle East. It's a bad precedent to set - the rest of the world isn't really that much less frustrating. If the idea were ever employed, it could easily spread...

I could read in that some frustrated confusion about Syria. Kudos, you're one step closer to truth than those who blindly accept the cartoonish black-and-white narrative the masses have been sold, after being bought off "activists" wholesale with no inspection, for going on two years now.

BTW before I forget: No one here is solely to blame for getting the confused idea that those bandied-about numbers represent only protesters. Almost universally, the tally of dead is couched in almost exactly this confusing way:

More than 2,200 people have been killed since the start of mass protests in Syria in mid-March, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights said on Monday.

(CNN, Aug. 22)

 

[trustbutverify]

The Russian government controlled propaganda station, RT, is already playing down expectations of Brahimi's meeting with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Monday:




Which could possibly meant that they will not support any peace plan for Syria that Brahimi comes up with, or they could just be tempering expectations or shifting the blame from their support in continuing and perpetuating the Syrian conflict.

Regardless, it shows that it is not going to be an easy meeting for Brahimi in convincing one of the main supporters of the conflict to change course.

It is probably one of the most important meetings that Brahimi will have though. A meeting with the foreign minister of a country that could single handedly end the conflict at any time they wanted to.

All things considered, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Putin was currently looking for a face saving way of getting out of the Assad business. Not sure any of the players are interested in helping him out with that.

 

[Caustic Logic]

All things considered, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Putin was currently looking for a face saving way of getting out of the Assad business. Not sure any of the players are interested in helping him out with that.

And at the same time, a sign that the other side might be getting out of the no-more-Assad-at-any-cost business.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/turkey-says-syrias-al-assad-can-stay/

Turkey has signaled that it wants to continue discussions with Iran over the future of Syria without the removal of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad as a prerequisite, according to a report in Joseph Farah’s G2 Bulletin.

By the way, so far my prophecy of an alleged gov't slaughter of innocents including many children hasn't come true. It was worth a venture in case it did happen, but these things really are too complex to predict with any accuracy.

Such a development appears to have emerged in discussions Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan recently held with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Tehran.

Turkish officials are quick to point out, however, that this does not signal any support Erdogan may have for al-Assad.

In recent weeks, Erdogan has backed off from recent hard positions he has taken toward Syria such as demanding the North Atlantic Treaty Organization – of which Turkey is a member – respond militarily first to the shoot-down of a Turkish jet fighter over Syria and then the mortar attack from Syria on a border village.

While Turkey seeks to assert its influence throughout the Middle East in view of the major political changes taking place there, Erdogan has had to tread carefully out of concern that it will resurrect the claim that he is attempting to reestablish the Ottoman Empire. The Arab countries in the region still have vivid memories of living under the Ottoman that often was harsh and deadly.

I'll be back with early militancy examples, after I work on that and on a video while awaiting A Closer Look again existing. (this repeated lapse into oblivion has been a persistent problem).

 

[JihadJane]

Seriously now, how hard are you going to work to avoid the issues at hand.

No one ever said that 33,000 protesters were killed.

You reap what you sow. Here is what you said in your evasive, non-answer:

How many protestors did they kill, who killed them and on whose orders?

Most estimates put the numbers in the thousands.

Syria death toll hits 33,082 – Security Council inaction encouraging Assad

I have a friend I shall call "Phill", he likes to say the best way to achieve peace in the middle east would to sterilize the entire place, nuke it, and make it uninhabitable for the next millennia.

Sometimes I can sort of see his point.

Yes, there are, unfortunately, a lot of genocidal, racist child murderers in this world. Sad that you consider one of them a friend.

 

[Caustic Logic]

how many protesters do you think have been killed?

At least 3000 before they had to turn to armed resistance to defend themselves.

The UN put the number of protesters killed at 3000-5000.

That was before the armed uprising.

Who else are they going to kill?

And again, the date range when 3,000 to 5,000 PEOPLE were reported killed by the UN was Oct. 14 to Dec. 13. For that many protesters alone to die, would take longer yet, so we're looking at no earlier than mid-October for armed resistance, you guys suggest.

The following, much of it admittedly from Syrian official sources, argues against that. (not every instance, just a good sampling to start with - this is an area I've been needing to sort out anyway)

- March 18 – first real protests and reported few killings in Daraa

- March 23 – attack on mosque
Human Rights Watch:

At around 1:30 a.m. on March 23, Syrian security forces using teargas canisters and live bullets stormed the al-Omari mosque in Daraa, where protesters had gathered since March 18, two Daraa residents told Human Rights Watch.
[…]
Syria's state news agency, SANA, reported on March 24 that the security forces had attacked the mosque after an "armed gang" attacked an ambulance early on March 23[Friday] in the mosque's vicinity, killing "a doctor, a paramedic, and a driver."
[…]
There are no other reports suggesting the protesters were armed or attacked the ambulance.

Physicians for Human Rights list one Ali Gahsab Almahameed, Cardiologist, Shot in the head and chest while driving to a mosque in Dara’a, 23 Mar 2011. The others, app. not listed. Who killed them really and why, murky. It did help escalate things.

Syrian TV broadcast pictures showing weapons, ammunition, and large amounts of money that the government alleged the armed gang stockpiled inside the mosque, but presented no evidence linking the materials to the alleged arm gang.

(aside from being inside the mosque the "protesters had gathered."
Seven police killed in the day's violence, Arutz Sheva, Israel (via Global Research):

Seven police officers and at least four demonstrators in Syria have been killed in continuing violent clashes that erupted in the southern town of Daraa last Thursday.

March 25/26, wikipedia, Jan-Apr (same link for all Jan-April 2011 entries):

25 March : A witness said that in Sanamayn, security forces killed 20 people.[105][108] The official Syrian news agency said that an "armed gang" had attacked army headquarters there, that "resulted in the deaths of several attackers."[109] The death of a civilian in Homs was blamed on an "armed group".[109] … In Kafr Amim, Idlib there was a fire at the Baath Party headquarters.[111]
[...]
In the cities of Latakia and Tafas, Baath party buildings and police stations were set on fire.[104] Armed gangs were blamed by the authorities for attempting to destabilize the country.[117] The Syrian Arab News Agency (SANA), the government controlled news agency, claimed that an armed group seized rooftops in many areas in Latakia, opening fire on citizens and security forces personnel.[118]

April 5 Wikipedia

According to state television, two policemen in rural Damascus were shot to death by unidentified perpetrators.[154]

April 8: BBC, April 10:

The BBC's Lina Sinjab reports from Damascus, as video emerges purportedly showing protesters clashing with security forces in Deraa

Four people including a security forces officer are said to have been shot dead in the Syrian port of Baniyas two days after deadly clashes in the south. Pro-government militia shot three protesters, eyewitnesses said, while state media reported the death of the officer in an ambush.

The BBC received information that 23 people were killed on Friday in Deraa, the city at the centre of protests. The government says 19 of these were members of the security forces. Syrian rights groups said security forces had opened fire at funerals.
…
State TV said earlier that 19 members of the police and other security forces in Deraa had been shot dead and 75 wounded by "armed groups".

RIAN, April 8:

Syrian media reported 19 police and security force members have been killed in clashes in the southern city of Daraa on Friday. The turmoil began when unidentified armed individuals opened fire on police and civilians who were holding a peaceful anti-government protest after the traditional Friday's prayer, Syria's official news agency Sana said.
Opposition sources, however, said that police started shooting at the demonstrators first in a bid to disperse their gathering.

April 18, one month anniversary, wikipedia:

A high-ranked officer of the Syrian army, Brigadier General Abdo Kheder al-Tellawi, was reportedly shot dead by an armed group in Homs along with his two children and nephew.[189][190] According to the director of the National Hospital of Homs Dr. Ghassan Tannous, the bodies of the victims have been maimed and mutilated with the use of sharp tools.[191]

There might be more to this-running over the son's head, etc. Might re-locate the similar/same story I heard before.

April 28, AP via Fox News

Members of Syrian army units have clashed with each other over carrying out President Bashar Assad's orders to crack down on protesters in the southern city of Daraa, the heart of the uprising, a witness and human rights groups said Thursday.
More than 500 people have been killed across Syria -- about 100 in Daraa alone -- since the popular revolt against Assad began in mid-March, according to human rights groups.
…
Ausama Monajed, a spokesman for a group of opposition figures in Syria and abroad, said the clashes among the soldiers have occurred since Assad sent the army into Daraa on Monday. The deployment was a clear escalation in his crackdown on the uprising.
"There are some battalions that refused to open fire on the people," Monajed told The Associated Press, citing witnesses on the ground in Daraa. "Battalions of the 5th Division were protecting people, and returned fire when they were subjected to attacks by the 4th Division."
The 4th division is run by the president's brother, Maher.
The reports were corroborated by three witnesses in Daraa and an activist contacted by the AP. All four asked that their names not be used for fear of reprisals.
[...]
The government has blamed armed thugs and a foreign conspiracy for the unrest, not true reform seekers.
State-run Syrian TV has run running lingering, gruesome close-ups of dead soldiers, their eyes blown out and parts of their limbs missing, to back up their claims that they were under attack.

May 6, Wikipedia May-Aug (and source for wikipedia below):

Eleven members of the Syrian army were allegedly killed by an armed group in Homs in an attack on a military checkpoint.[12]

May 17 wikipedia

The chief of the Political Security Forces of Homs and four other officers were killed by an armed group in Talkalakh.[34][35][36]

May 24 wikipedia

Human rights groups say the civilian death toll has reached over 1,100. They also confirmed that soldiers who refused to fire on civilians were executed by the Syrian army.[44]

(or, perhaps, by other people, in reality...)

May 31 wikipedia

On 31 May, media reported that armed residents in Rastan and Talbiseh put up resistance to the military and the besieging army was not able to enter the two towns.[54][55] The military reportedly started artillery attacks on both cities.[56]

June 6, wikipedia

Syrian state TV reported that 120 soldiers were killed in Jisr al-Shughour by what the news agency called "armed gangs" launching an ambush. Residents claim that the soldiers were in reality executed by the Syrian army itself for refusing to fire on protesters. Alleged video of the dead soldiers purport to show that they were manually executed by being shot in the back.[62]

Detailed exploration of this Jisr Al-Shughur at a Closer Look on Syria. A complex and fascinating episode, marking the first apparent major rebel attack, but all passed off as a mass defection and fighting internal to the military, but much else happened, like some class of armed opposition attack on a Post Office, a massacre according to some, a measured response to snipers in there, according to others. I'll post the link to that when the site's back up.

(thinning out here to save time, skipping six weeks)
July 16/17, wikipedia:

16 July
In the town of Abu Kamal, on the border with Iraq, five protesters were killed by the Syrian army. A day later, thousands of people took to the streets before the military tried to intervene to suppress the demonstrations. However, they were unsuccessful in doing so as the protesters were larger in size. It was reported that 100 Air Force intelligence agents and the crew of at least four armored vehicles defected to the opposition. Activists also claimed that the protesters managed to capture several tanks, armored vehicles and weapons from the army. The government stated that three soldiers were killed in the clashes.[131] After an agreement was reached between the protesters and the military, some of the seized military vehicles and weapons were handed back.[132]
[...]
During factional fighting between residents of Homs 30 people were killed. At the same time, the army entered some villages in Aleppo’s countryside, according to activists on the Internet.[133]
Some soldiers defected with their armoured personnel carriers and joined the protesters, as did at least 100 Air Force personnel in a town near the Iraqi border.[134]

July 29, app. in ref. to above, FSA finally launched:

A colonel in the Syrian Army claimed he had defected to the opposition along with "hundreds" of other military personnel in the city of Deir ez-Zor, and called his group the Free Syrian Army.[142]

August 22, CNN:

CNN: More than 2,200 people have been killed since the start of mass protests in Syria in mid-March, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights said on Monday.

Sept., Libyan fighters and weapons start arriving in notable numbers to bolster the fight. October, November Dec, deathtoll of all combined reaches reported 3-5,000, regime forces pulled out of Homs to appease Arab League, sinister snipers remain and shoot Sari Saoud and 19 others Nov. 26, for just one of many, many such incidents.

And it was somewhere right around there, you guys think, that opponents of the government decided enough was enough and finally took up arms?

 

[JihadJane]

Thanks for your research, Caustic Logic.

 

[Mudcat]

Yes, there are, unfortunately, a lot of genocidal, racist child murderers in this world. Sad that you consider one of them a friend.

Most of the time he's a good guy.

He gets exasperated about the situation in the middle east and I can't say that I blame him, either. It's a distant regional pissing contest and it seems to be threatening to drag the rest of the world into it.

I doubt it's going to end up with everyone smiling in the end.