Homeopathy does work

[Anders W. Bonde]

SezMe,

Thanks for correcting my prose - your phrasing is in fact what I intended to write!

Mojo,

You are, of course, fully correct that by the same token, a failed study of one remedy does not constitute evidence or proof that all the others don't work.

Having said that, one is left to speculate what the homeopathic success-to-failure ratio (currently 0 after hundreds and hundreds of studies) would need to be for reasonable people to call it a day and spend their resources elsewhere. That's what bothers me - many countries (my own included) have some sort of fully or partly publically funded set-up to investigate sCAM - when and by what criteria do they say 'enough is enough - there's no more to see here [homeopathy] - let's move on'. If they are out to prove a negative they are then just pouring public funds into a big, black hole.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Having said that, one is left to speculate what the homeopathic success-to-failure ratio (currently 0 after hundreds and hundreds of studies) would need to be for reasonable people to call it a day and spend their resources elsewhere. That's what bothers me - many countries (my own included) have some sort of fully or partly publically funded set-up to investigate sCAM - when and by what criteria do they say 'enough is enough - there's no more to see here [homeopathy] - let's move on'. If they are out to prove a negative they are then just pouring public funds into a big, black hole.

See also MMR "Controversy"!

 

[Mojo]

You are, of course, fully correct that by the same token, a failed study of one remedy does not constitute evidence or proof that all the others don't work.

Having said that, one is left to speculate what the homeopathic success-to-failure ratio (currently 0 after hundreds and hundreds of studies) would need to be for reasonable people to call it a day and spend their resources elsewhere. That's what bothers me - many countries (my own included) have some sort of fully or partly publically funded set-up to investigate sCAM - when and by what criteria do they say 'enough is enough - there's no more to see here [homeopathy] - let's move on'. If they are out to prove a negative they are then just pouring public funds into a big, black hole.

I agree entirely. I think Ernst, although he's doing good work, is generally far too cautious in his public pronouncements. He will usually just say something along the lines of "there is no evidence that this works," rather than drawing any inference from the ack of evidence.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I agree entirely. I think Ernst, although he's doing good work, is generally far too cautious in his public pronouncements. He will usually just say something along the lines of "there is no evidence that this works," rather than drawing any inference from the ack of evidence.

I don't know whether that caution is necessary to try to eke out the residual willingness to co-operate from the perpetrators of sCAM.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

BSM,

If nothing else, it may be to keep the attention of the sCAM clients - unless they see or hear anything that leaves just the slightest iota of hope for evidence of efficacy of their favourite sCAM-of-the-month, they'll just shoot the messenger and ignore the message...which brings us back to the topic of the "so, what should sceptics do" thread...




(Edited because I can't seem to express myself properly these days)

 

[Perpetual Notion]

Speaking from the perspective of an American and someone who lives in Dr. Andrew Weil's neck of the woods (he a big alternative medicine researcher in the States) I think that studies and people buying into sCAM is just beginning. Because the baby boomers are getting older and are being diagnosed with chronic conditions like arthritis, they are looking towards whatever they think can help them. We don't like to hear that there's no cure for what ails us.

Dr. Weil is a Harvard trained physician and people come from all over the States to see him. People take him seriously because he's an M.D. and he doesn't come across as a woo. I believe the wait to get into see him is in the 6-9 month range and that can be just to see his associates. He advocates the use of herbs and acupuncture. On the plus side, when someone opened a clinic here that uses some bogus magnet treatment, he refused to endorse it.

One benefit I can see coming from the government investigating such things as herbs is figuring out which ones can interact with pharmaceuticals and be dangerous. But as far as them labeling them useless, as is the case with the magnet clinic which had already been busted with the FDA, people won't pay much attention to that. If they are suffering and think there might be something to it, then they will pay for it. There's definitely the idea of "well, science doesn't know everything".

 

[Darat]

Speaking from the perspective of an American and someone who lives in Dr. Andrew Weil's neck of the woods (he a big alternative medicine researcher in the States) I think that studies and people buying into sCAM is just beginning. Because the baby boomers are getting older and are being diagnosed with chronic conditions like arthritis, they are looking towards whatever they think can help them. We don't like to hear that there's no cure for what ails us.

...snip...

And don't forget because these are also conditions that tend to have high and low periods of activity and even remissions from time to time it is more then likely that a remission or a "low activity" period will occur when you are talking some "alternative" remedy.
Add in the fact that for many degenerative chronic diseases (that afflict the older person in particular) inflict chronic pain and that with chronic pain "state of mind" can play an important fact then you’ve the recipe for increased acceptance that the "alternatives" actually do something in and of themselves.

 

[Perpetual Notion]

The other thing that people like about the alternative practitioners is that they spend so much time with them. Intake at their clinics is generally an hour with follow up appointments being half an hour to an hour and feeling more like a counseling session than anything else.

I had a girlfriend who went to a homeopath/naturopath because of severe monthly headaches. The treaments never worked and one month I convinced her to take some Aleve, which she was opposed to because it was unnatural. Lo and behold it worked and she proclaimed the drug "a miracle". The next month she was right back to the homeopath's office for the headache. When I asked her why when the Aleve worked, she said, "it's because she listens to me".

If doctors are only going to be able to spend 5-10 minutes with a patient, they're going to have to expect that they'll go somewhere where they feel they're being listened to.

 

[Rolfe]

I'd like to listen to Mas, or any of the rest of them, if they'd just do what they promised and explain to us how they think homoeopathy works. To recap the first post in this thread,

You people are demanding from me to explain how homeopathy does work. I am ready to explain it till you satisfy. If I fail, I will accept my defeat at this forum and will burn my entire homeopathic certifications in the prescence of huge gatherings.

1. Do you want to learn homeopathic working under 18x potency or above 18x?

2. Tell me, do you agree, homeopathy does work in below 18x potency in any form?

3. If I ask you to take four drops of 19x cyanide dilution as suggested by homeopath then would you take it?

So, he was ready to explain till we are satisfied (I think he meant). Anybody notice any explanation at all? Even any attempt at an explanation?

I am coming here to share thoughts with you and not to check anyone qualification or credibility or status.

No, he promptly started to insist on being given particular details of credentials and status before he would continue. That given, somehow that wouldn't do either - perhaps he wanted a different poster to have the medical degree, or maybe he wanted our phone numbers or something, anyway, no explanation.

No glimmerings of a beginning of an explanation.

As regards the questions, we said we don't see what's so important about 18X. The points at which you run out of molecules are in fact 24X and 12C. However, it doesn't matter, because at 18X there are in any case way too few molecules to have any effect by normal physiological means.

No, we don't agree that "homoeopathy works" below 18X potency in any form. Even as low as 6X there are too few molecules to have any physical effect. And even if you were to go to 1X and 2X, no, we don't agree that "like cures like". And besides, we note that homoepaths seldom if ever use such potencies, so we'd rather have an explanation of the commonly-used potencies such as 30C.

If the 19X cyanide preparation was correctly and honestly prepared, yes I would have no problem taking four drops. Even 6X, properly prepared with no cheating or contamination, no problem.

So, since the great 5-hour meeting is now over (funny, I arranged and attended a 5-hour meeting myself yesterday evening, and we didn't have this fuss about it all), may we now hope for the explanation we were promised right at the start by Mas?

Rolfe.

 

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*
So, since the great 5-hour meeting is now over (funny, I arranged and attended a 5-hour meeting myself yesterday evening, and we didn't have this fuss about it all), may we now hope for the explanation we were promised right at the start by Mas?

Rolfe. [/B]

Yeah, but YOUR meeting was not one with 400-500 people (of whom, when judging from the photos, most were present in homeopathic dilutions), with big flashy badges and certicates for everybody, and wall clocks presented to some, and such?

Otherwise, I think your synopsis of the MAS appearance here is right on the mark: He has promeised a lot, and kept nothing. The only thing I would add is that as soon as he ran into the slightest amount of flak, he fled and sent in his clowns to try to make as much disturbance as they could.


Hans

 

[Rolfe]

Yeah, but YOUR meeting was not one with 400-500 people (of whom, when judging from the photos, most were present in homeopathic dilutions), with big flashy badges and certicates for everybody, and wall clocks presented to some, and such?

Well, there was a big gold chain, and 22 people who were real enough to eat a lot of chicken and stuff. And a resolution that we should write a strongly concerned letter to the VMD regarding any suggestion of allowing veterinary registration for homoeopathic remedies.

Photos might be forthcoming if I ever manage to get my camera to talk to my computer. In fact, considering that photos were actually taken, and the way the MAS collective has been running argument by Kodak, I might just do that.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Still wondering where the MAS collective has got to, and if we're ever going to get the explanation even Kumar was convinced we ewre going to get.... (From one of the other treads, which I have no intention of bumping....)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr. MAS
.... a protocol can be built to prove that “yes”, the molecules are present in 31c potency.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He may prove it. .... Mostly, he can show you molecular presence. So just take care.

His silence can be alike silence before a storm & his speaking alike a storm. Just take care. You may learn something from him, then????what you said?

So, when will the storm be upon us?

Rolfe.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

So, since the great 5-hour meeting is now over

Arithmetic, Rolfe!

They couldn't managed 5 hours. It was 4 hours and time for a rub down with a damp cloth before their fevered brains overheated.

 

[Nucular]

So, when will the storm be upon us?

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows, Rolfe...

 

[Qureshi1_78]

And, of course, when studies of this sort are carried out and the results don't support homeopathy, the only conclusions drawn are the specific ones being tested for. For example, Edzard Ernst and colleagues recently published a study showing that homeopathic arnica is no more effective than placebo as a treatment for post-operative pain and bruising (specifically for pain and bruising following hand surgery). Being proper scientists, they just concluded that this particular remedy is ineffective for this particular condition, as that's all the study actually shows. They didn't make any blanket assertion that homeopathy doesn't work.

Ask Edzard to contact WHCC office for one million prize offer. Its very easy to win the prize.

Correspondence to: Professor E Ernst E-mail: [email protected]

Homeopathic arnica is widely believed to control bruising, reduce swelling and promote recovery after local trauma; many patients therefore take it perioperatively. To determine whether this treatment has any effect, we conducted a double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized trial with three parallel arms. 64 adults undergoing elective surgery for carpal tunnel syndrome were randomized to take three tablets daily of homeopathic arnica 30C or 6C or placebo for seven days before surgery and fourteen days after surgery. Primary outcome measures were pain (short form McGill Pain Questionnaire) and bruising (colour separation analysis) at four days after surgery. Secondary outcome measures were swelling (wrist circumference) and use of analgesic medication (patient diary).

62 patients could be included in the intention-to-treat analysis. There were no group differences on the primary outcome measures of pain (P=0.79) and bruising (P=0.45) at day four. Swelling and use of analgesic medication also did not differ between arnica and placebo groups. Adverse events were reported by 2 patients in the arnica 6C group, 3 in the placebo group and 4 in the arnica 30C group.

The results of this trial do not suggest that homeopathic arnica has an advantage over placebo in reducing postoperative pain, bruising and swelling in patients undergoing elective hand surgery.

 

[Rolfe]

Ask Edzard to contact WHCC office for one million prize offer. Its very easy to win the prize.

You mean that's what has to be done to win the million rupees? Prove that homoeopathy doesn't work?

Why didn't you say that in the first place?

Rolfe.

 

[Qureshi1_78]

You mean that's what has to be done to win the million rupees? Prove that homoeopathy doesn't work?

Why didn't you say that in the first place?

Rolfe.

Yes, its so easy to win one million rupees offer. Yes, ask edzard to go for the prize and send his "bogus" thesis at whcc office, with his academic background and cradentials.

World Homeopathic Computer Club
2nd floor of Iqbal homeopathic poly clinic building
Attached Main Police Station Kharian
Main Market, Kharian
Pakistan

 

[Rolfe]

Yes, its so easy to win one million rupees offer.

So, after all that obfuscation, it's clear. Just prove that homoeoapthy doesn't work.

Now he tells us. After the very short deadline for applications has expired.

The next thing I'd want to know is what level of proof is demanded, but since the offer has timed-out, it's a bit pointless.

Rolfe.

 

[Qureshi1_78]

YOU TOOK A MONTH IN UNDERSTANDING THIS SIMPLE RULING AND NOW YOU DEMAND FROM DR. MAS TO TEACH YOU "HOW DOES HOMEOPATHIC POTENCY WORK" HOW CAN HE TEACH SUCH NON-SENSE SKEPTICS IN A DAY.

 

[Rolfe]

If Mas meant "prove that homoeopathy doesn't work", why didn't he say so? In what way does "prove that homoeopathy is paranormal" the same as "prove that homoeopathy doesn't work"?

He can't teach anyone because he's profoundly ignorant of chemistry, biochemistry, molecular biology and medicine, that's all.

Rolfe.