Homeopathic migraine relief

Olaf/QII said:
with the histamine studies the controls were prepared in an identical manner as the treatments (diluted histamine).

the controls were diluted and vortexed just the same.

the results are due to the fact that the solution is altered in some way through the process of succusion and dilution.

polar solutions do have a memory.

My concerns are still valid. I agree that my need for controlled conditions is over the top but then these are dilutions that even an experienced analytical chemist would have trouble controlling.

Succusion and dilution are completely irrelevant, except as good ways of contamination (controls can be contaminated too).

Polarity is due to the differences in electronegativity between certain atoms in assymetrical molecules- a so-called 'dipole moment'. Molecules shake, vibrate, bend, stretch and move in 3-dimensional space (when in liquid or gas phase). On a larger scale liquids are, literally, chaotic. There are exceptions to this, but none that are relevant to this discussion (eg. liquid crystals).

How exactly does a polar solution hold information that can be read by basophils?


That's what you are saying when you claim that polar solutions have a memory.

You actually mean that a disorganised medium can store complex pattern information, to the exclusion of every other competing pattern, and relay this to receptor molecules on the surface of cells?

(BTW, big blue fonts are unnecessary. I understand what you are saying, probably more than you do).
 
It's one thing to say that homeopathy works by some sort of vague energy field or vibration or some such notion. I can sort of accept that, or at least I can't define it well enough to argue with it. It's proper woo, just like in the old days.

It is quite another thing for Olaf to quote half-arsed papers about 'water memory' as proof of homeopathy when he neither understands nor wants to understand the science behind the headlines.

Straight questions for Olaf:

Does homeopathy operate by polar solvent memory or not?

If it does then how do dry sugar tablet remedies work?

If it does not then what is the relevance of the papers you cite?

I'm hoping for some straight answers.
 
Olaf/QII said:
Only true if you want to keep fibbing to yourself.
3. Results

3.1. THE EFFECT OF BELLADONNA (B) DILUTIONS ON THE NORMAL TONE OF THE RAT DUODENUM

The effect of D water was a statistically insignificant rise in the tone. The D aqueous solutions of alcohol 70° had no effect.

The N aqueous solutions of B had the effect of lowering the normal tone of the isolated rat duodenum, only up to 6 C (unidirectional, monophasic effect) (Figure 1).

The D dilutions of B exerted an effect up to 45 C, i.e. relaxation between 1 C-20 C and contraction between 30 C-45 C (bidirectional, biphasic effect) (Figure 1).

At the same degree of dilution, the D dilutions had a more intense effect than the N solutions (Figure 1).

Oh, what the heck, here's one for old times' sake.

1. Do you understand why measuring "tone" in isolated bowel segments is a notoriously difficult model to use? Yet another dodgy model being used by dodgy homeopaths. How's that for a remarkable correlation that keeps defeating its null hypothesis!

2. Do you understand why their statistical analysis is invalid? I'll give you a hint for this one: what hypothesis were they testing for the effect of their test solutions. Having obtained these results as a preliminary pilot study how would they confirm that they have not enaged in a data dredge to produce their results? As a last question, I'll give you another to test your understanding of what they did. What is the Bonferroni adjustment and how would it be applicable to the multiple statistical tests they performed? How many tests for statistical significance did they perform on a single series of datasets?

3. Why is this statement a serious problem: "During a working day, in the same bath, the low solutions were tested in an increasing order of concentrations and the high dilutions were tested at random."? What confounding effects have they failed to deal with?

4. Let's look at the data as reported. Examine one data point: Belladonna C45 produced a response reported as "+67.60±0.10" (Mean + sem). With n=8, that means that the standard deviation of the responses was 0.28%. In other words, with 8 samples they all probably lay in the range 67.1-68.1%. While it would be lovely if biological experiments could work so neatly, these are the tolerances that you find in physics and engineering, not biology. I don't know what was going on in their tissue baths but the least likely way that numbers like this could be produced is by any biological process acting on a tissue sample.

In a similar vein, you should look at these successive data points.

  • 45______________ +67.60±0.10
  • 55______________ -27.80±0.30
  • 75______________ +95.45±1.20
  • 80______________ +82.39±0.60

It is biologically unfeasible for sems to be so small with such large differences between successive dilutions. Now, I have no way of proving what was going on, but just bear in mind that if these data were graphed, the sem error bars would not be visible beyond the thickness of the line used to connect the points. Have a look at any pharmacology paper involving dose-response curves and see whether that ever occurs. It does not.

5. Does this paper exist in a peer-reviewed form? Why not?

Rolfe, Hans et al. One interesting feature of that farrago is that it gives an estimate for the concentration of a pharmacologically significant substance in a homeopathic "mother tincture":

"The Belladonna (B) tincture (containing 0,03g% total alkaloids, expressed in atropine) " i.e. 3mg/l.
 
By the way, if anyone is still interacting with the village idiots of the MAS collective, perhaps they should be required to comment on the dilutions and numbers of molecules calculated in the Cristea paper.
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
By the way, if anyone is still interacting with the village idiots of the MAS collective, perhaps they should be required to comment on the dilutions and numbers of molecules calculated in the Cristea paper.
You'll be bloody lucky! After both Donks and H'ethetheth posted clear calculations of (respectively) the numbers of ions of sodium sulphate in a litre of serial dilutions from 1M to 18C, and the probability that the actual number of molecules would vary from this theoretical figure allowing for pipetting error, they were simply ignored.

You, however, fared better. After I informed him that the person he was telling to go and enrol in primary school had a PhD in molecular biology, his responses were:
he does not hold a Ph.D degree. I challenge you if he sends his theory (above) to me with his complete address. I will assure you the university will cancel his degree because a person who does not know the ABC of avogadro's application how dare he can claim of holding Ph.D
He seemed to take particular exception to the fact that I hadn't actually identified you.
I do not hide anything. Ask to badlyshaved monkey to come like that if he holds ph.D (mc)

Picture, name, qualification, experience, occupation, addresses and phone nos. I am waiting.
Further objections that he hadn't explained why he disagreed with you, or where your (or anyone else's) calculations were in error, elicited
I have rejected this idea on some grounds because I know only an illeterate person can float this idea. BSM claims he is ph.d ask him/her to send this idea in true thesis format with references and endorse the signature of ph.d doctors.

I assure you, univeristy who issued him a ph.d degree will review its decission on that ground which I will provide with two ph.d doctors signature.
And after I assured him that I knew you and could vouch for the truth of the degrees, we got this priceless gem.
Oh my god, are they living in your house? You are the family member of BSM?
You're right, it's pointless. I'd almost rather debate with Kumar.

Rolfe.
 
Oleron said:
It's one thing to say that homeopathy works by some sort of vague energy field or vibration or some such notion. I can sort of accept that, or at least I can't define it well enough to argue with it. It's proper woo, just like in the old days.

It is quite another thing for Olaf to quote half-arsed papers about 'water memory' as proof of homeopathy when he neither understands nor wants to understand the science behind the headlines.

Straight questions for Olaf:

Does homeopathy operate by polar solvent memory or not?

If it does then how do dry sugar tablet remedies work?

If it does not then what is the relevance of the papers you cite?

I'm hoping for some straight answers.


I missed this, will have to get to it later -- short on time.

"If it does then how do dry sugar tablet remedies work?"

i suppose if we look at Louis Rey's thermoluminescence paper and believe that the ghost lithium is still somehow retained in the ultra-diluted water then one can possibly make the next leap which would be that another polar molecule can be immersed in this altered water and somehow be affected by it.

at the crudest level of comparison a magnet is able to transfer its charge to other metals.

i really do not know the answer, maybe the solid polar sugar is a stable storage medium.
 
Rolfe said:
You'll be bloody lucky! After both Donks and H'ethetheth posted clear calculations of (respectively) the numbers of ions of sodium sulphate in a litre of serial dilutions from 1M to 18C, and the probability that the actual number of molecules would vary from this theoretical figure allowing for pipetting error, they were simply ignored.

You, however, fared better. After I informed him that the person he was telling to go and enrol in primary school had a PhD in molecular biology, his responses were:He seemed to take particular exception to the fact that I hadn't actually identified you.Further objections that he hadn't explained why he disagreed with you, or where your (or anyone else's) calculations were in error, elicitedAnd after I assured him that I knew you and could vouch for the truth of the degrees, we got this priceless gem.You're right, it's pointless. I'd almost rather debate with Kumar.

Rolfe.

I found MAS' attempts to goad me quite flattering. It just goes to show I have had some impact even through their intellectual armour. On the other hand it would also support the outright troll theory, in that they post insults merely to try to elicit a response.
 
Olaf/QII said:
I missed this, will have to get to it later -- short on time.

"If it does then how do dry sugar tablet remedies work?"

i suppose if we look at Louis Rey's thermoluminescence paper and believe that the ghost lithium is still somehow retained in the ultra-diluted water then one can possibly make the next leap which would be that another polar molecule can be immersed in this altered water and somehow be affected by it.

at the crudest level of comparison a magnet is able to transfer its charge to other metals.

i really do not know the answer, maybe the solid polar sugar is a stable storage medium.

Thanks for responding, Olaf.

Can you see the error you're making here? You are starting with a conclusion and working backwards, picking out the supporting data as you go.

You "know" homeopathy works, therefore there must be a mechanism. To support the mechanism you pick out some papers which describe various anomalous results.

Then you go a stage further and start speculating that a non-proven mechanism could actually start to affect solid substrates by a 2nd unknown mechanism.

I interpret things differently. I look at the studies and draw the conclusions that the results are more likely to be caused by naive experimental control than a mechanism that I consider to be fundamentally impossible.

I'll state it with complete confidence, in fact. Water memory is impossible. Trust me, it's a fact. Look elsewhere for your mechanism.
 
Oleron said:
Thanks for responding, Olaf.

Can you see the error you're making here? You are starting with a conclusion and working backwards, picking out the supporting data as you go.

You "know" homeopathy works, therefore there must be a mechanism. To support the mechanism you pick out some papers which describe various anomalous results.

Then you go a stage further and start speculating that a non-proven mechanism could actually start to affect solid substrates by a 2nd unknown mechanism.

I interpret things differently. I look at the studies and draw the conclusions that the results are more likely to be caused by naive experimental control than a mechanism that I consider to be fundamentally impossible.

I'll state it with complete confidence, in fact. Water memory is impossible. Trust me, it's a fact. Look elsewhere for your mechanism.


first i need to say that the idea that the water is "DRIED" on to the sugar is erroneous.

I have a couple of papers showing that there are trillions of water or alcohol molecules retained in the pellets.
.


the paper i am referring to is some Harvard study that used NMR to try and detect a difference between a control and a remedy --- no difference was found. (the authors think that NMR is a poor method of detection if the mechanism of water cluster memory is dynamic versus non-dynamic.)



Why do you say that water memory is impossible? Have you proved that Louis Rey's thermoluminescence study is bad data?

Nothing is impossible!

even something as laughable as astrology could contain some incredibly small kernal of truth. Not likely at all but still possible.
 
the paper i am referring to is some Harvard study that used NMR to try and detect a difference between a control and a remedy --- no difference was found. (the authors think that NMR is a poor method of detection if the mechanism of water cluster memory is dynamic versus non-dynamic.)

Sorry, you've lost me here. Can you direct me to this Harvard paper? I'm not sure which one you mean.

As for water cluster memory being dynamic as opposed to non-dynamic, I assume the authors are referring to the fact that these water "clusters" can exchange members with other clusters? There is no question that this would be the case if water clusters formed at all.

Why? Because the clusters would have an exceedingly short life before they disintegrate and reform somewhere else. Fractions of nanoseconds.

In this environment, pattern information cannot be stored.

You can "order" water at a macroscopic level but you need to add another substance to do this. Think of gelatine - a small concentration of gelatine can arrange the water molecules into a gel matrix, limiting the translational movement of the molecules. This matrix can reach quite ordered levels - think of the jelly inside your eyeball that can allow light to pass through, virtually undistorted.

Indeed, if you really want to study the conformations that water can take up, ask a biochemist. They have been studying reactions such as enzymatic reactions for years. You may not realise that these reactions depend totally on the effect that water (and solutes) have on the enzyme molecules and substrates.

I was a biochemist and if there was one iota of truth in the water memory theory your bodily functions would fail to operate immediately. There would simply be no way for your body to filter out competing reactions.

So where does this leave your studies? I am, frankly, at a loss to explain every nuance of every study you reference but I am suspicious of any scientist who rather than accepting that:

H20 + H20 = 2H20

thinks that:

H20 + H20 = Histamine
 
Oleron said:
Sorry, you've lost me here. Can you direct me to this Harvard paper? I'm not sure which one you mean.

As for water cluster memory being dynamic as opposed to non-dynamic, I assume the authors are referring to the fact that these water "clusters" can exchange members with other clusters? There is no question that this would be the case if water clusters formed at all.

Why? Because the clusters would have an exceedingly short life before they disintegrate and reform somewhere else. Fractions of nanoseconds.

In this environment, pattern information cannot be stored.

You can "order" water at a macroscopic level but you need to add another substance to do this. Think of gelatine - a small concentration of gelatine can arrange the water molecules into a gel matrix, limiting the translational movement of the molecules. This matrix can reach quite ordered levels - think of the jelly inside your eyeball that can allow light to pass through, virtually undistorted.

Indeed, if you really want to study the conformations that water can take up, ask a biochemist. They have been studying reactions such as enzymatic reactions for years. You may not realise that these reactions depend totally on the effect that water (and solutes) have on the enzyme molecules and substrates.

I was a biochemist and if there was one iota of truth in the water memory theory your bodily functions would fail to operate immediately. There would simply be no way for your body to filter out competing reactions.

So where does this leave your studies? I am, frankly, at a loss to explain every nuance of every study you reference but I am suspicious of any scientist who rather than accepting that:

H20 + H20 = 2H20

thinks that:

H20 + H20 = Histamine

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/4/15

"if there was one iota of truth in the water memory theory your bodily functions would fail to operate immediately. There would simply be no way for your body to filter out competing reactions."

Once again, no where in nature do we find a process of repeated succussion and dilution. therefore our bodies are never subjected to this unless we consume some of this manmade water.

--and when a person does consume it, the effect is rather gentle. it sounds like you might be overexaggerating what might really happen.


if you look at the basophil studies you will see that the effects are not overly dramatic.
 
Olaf/QII said:
Once again, no where in nature do we find a process of repeated succussion and dilution. therefore our bodies are never subjected to this unless we consume some of this manmade water.
You keep saying that like it actually mattered. Well, I just thought of one. A waterfall. At the bottom, the water is continually being diluted and succussed by the incoming water.
 
Donks said:
You keep saying that like it actually mattered. Well, I just thought of one. A waterfall. At the bottom, the water is continually being diluted and succussed by the incoming water.

not even close to what really happens.

it is being diluted and it is being succussed but what is missing is some giant hand suddenly rising from the bottom with a giant beaker filled with some of this water and carrying it over to another source of relatively pure water where it can be diluted and succussed all over again at some ratio whether it be 1/10, 1/50, 1/100, 1/150, etc
 
Olaf/QII said:
not even close to what really happens.

it is being diluted and it is being succussed but what is missing is some giant hand suddenly rising from the bottom with a giant beaker filled with some of this water and carrying it over to another source of relatively pure water where it can be diluted and succussed all over again
It doesn't have to. It is being diluted and succussed by the incoming water. It doesn't matter if you take a sample to the pure water or you bring the pure water to the sample.
at some ratio whether it be 1/10, 1/50, 1/100, 1/150, etc
Huh? So now it only works if it is diluted at a nice round number? Even if that were the case, any dilution step you wish to think up will occur because the inflow of water is a continuous phenomenon, so every dilution step will get passed at some point. Would you now like to argue that it only works if you hit the container 30 times against a leather bound bible?
 
Donks said:

Huh? So now it only works if it is diluted at a nice round number? Even if that were the case, any dilution step you wish to think up will occur because the inflow of water is a continuous phenomenon, so every dilution step will get passed at some point. Would you now like to argue that it only works if you hit the container 30 times against a leather bound bible?
no it does not have to be a nice round number.

i think you know that your example is not the same thing as what really occurs.
 

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