Homeopathic migraine relief

[Olaf/QII]

Sorry, I'll keep my brain in my head thank you. Plenty of evidence? Plenty of unconvincing non-proven garbage that cannot be validated. Thanks for nothing.

Only true if you want to keep fibbing to yourself.


http://www.giriweb.com/downloads.htm
http://www.giriweb.com/downloads/book/cristun.htm

PHARMACODYNAMIC EFFECTS OF VERY HIGH DILUTIONS OF BELLADONNA ON THE ISOLATED RAT DUODENUM
A Pharmacological Study of High Dilution Effect

A. CRISTEA, S. NICULA, V. DARIE

Laboratory of Pharmacology, Faculty of Pharmacy, Bucharest, Romania


1- Introduction
2 - Method
3 - Results
4 - Discussion
5 - References

3. Results

3.1. THE EFFECT OF BELLADONNA (B) DILUTIONS ON THE NORMAL TONE OF THE RAT DUODENUM

The effect of D water was a statistically insignificant rise in the tone. The D aqueous solutions of alcohol 70° had no effect.

The N aqueous solutions of B had the effect of lowering the normal tone of the isolated rat duodenum, only up to 6 C (unidirectional, monophasic effect) (Figure 1).

The D dilutions of B exerted an effect up to 45 C, i.e. relaxation between 1 C-20 C and contraction between 30 C-45 C (bidirectional, biphasic effect) (Figure 1).

At the same degree of dilution, the D dilutions had a more intense effect than the N solutions (Figure 1).

 

[Eos of the Eons]

"tone" of dead rat duodenum? What? Is that what that is about?

The more the dilution of the outside solution (less solutes), the more the rat duodenum will imbibe, increasing its tone. That's why they got the results they did?

Don't you know that water will go from less solute to more solute? A cell will lose water if the solution outside of it has more solutes, it will gain water if the water outside of it has less solutes.

Just my layman's guess at this stuff I've just read. It's seems rather silly to me.

 

[geni]

"tone" of dead rat duodenum? What? Is that what that is about?

Probably frequency of constriction. This is a pain to do experimentaly since you need to be careful not to damage the stuff when handleing it.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Still, what does the study really show? Have anyone replicated the "positive findings" if any?

 

[geni]

Still, what does the study really show? Have anyone replicated the "positive findings" if any?

The results are from n=8 groups and as far as I can tell the study has never been published in a peer reviewed journal (I can't find it on pubmed).

 

[Eos of the Eons]

So, I thus conclude it's more useless junk dragged up on a google. Yippee.

 

[Olaf/QII]

So, I thus conclude it's more useless junk dragged up on a google. Yippee.

Nope. it came from this group's site.





http://www.giriweb.com/members.htm

Dr. Conort D, MD, 16 Rue de l'Evangile, 75018, Paris, France.

Prof. Coustaut Denise, Cellular Biology, Faculty of Pharmacy, University of Montpellier,
34060, Montpellier, France

Dr. P. Crespin, Physics, Faculty of Pharmacy, University of Reims, Reims, France

Dr. Cristea Aurelia, Pharmacology, Faculty of Pharmacy, Bucharest, Roumania


Prof. Dernaeowicz-Malarczyk Anna, Biochemistry Department, Maria-Curie-Skeodowska University, Lublin, Poland

Elzbieta Malarczyk. Department of Biochemistry. M. Curie-Sklodowska University, Lublin, Poland.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

it came from this group's site.

So???

 

[Olaf/QII]

So???

it bothers you somewhat that so many highly educated professionals have all come together to support research in the area of highly dilute solutions.



Dr. Oberbaum Menachem, Ruth Ben Ari Institute for Clinical Immunology, Kaplan Hospital, Rehovot, Israel

Prof. Olinescu Andrei , Cellular Immunology, Cantacuzino Institute, Bucarest, Roumania

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Pfffttt!! Appeal to authority is great cop out.

 

[Olaf/QII]

Pfffttt!! Appeal to authority is great cop out.

not at all. it is used to make you wonder. make you wonder if you are badly mistaken on the entire subject. make you wonder if there are things not yet discovered about matter, energy.


make you wonder if people like badly shaved monkey might be way off base due to some psychological problem that is not being addressed.

would you make a deal such that if you were wrong about this you would submit to an eternity of unfathomable amounts of torture?

 

[Eos of the Eons]

not at all. it is used to make you wonder. make you wonder if you are badly mistaken on the entire subject. make you wonder if there are things not yet discovered about matter, energy.


make you wonder if people like badly shaved monkey might be way off base due to some psychological problem that is not being addressed.

would you make a deal such that if you were wrong about this you would submit to an eternity of unfathomable amounts of torture?

You're Weird.

 

[Donks]

would you make a deal such that if you were wrong about this you would submit to an eternity of unfathomable amounts of torture?

I have. I've been condemmed to the HELLFIRE!

 

[Olaf/QII]

You're Weird.

waiting for your answer.

 

[CaveDave]

not at all. it is used to make you wonder. make you wonder if you are badly mistaken on the entire subject. make you wonder if there are things not yet discovered about matter, energy.

Hey, Ofal:
Make us wonder if you have any understanding beyond that of a minah bird? Of course there are facts not yet discovered, that truth in no way makes your assertions likely to be among them. Prove it. Put up or shut up.

make you wonder if people like badly shaved monkey might be way off base due to some psychological problem that is not being addressed.

Hey, Ofal:

would you make a deal such that if you were wrong about this you would submit to an eternity of unfathomable amounts of torture?

Hey, Ofal:
Are you joking? I suspect you're serious. WOW, I can't believe it! Let's get this straight; you think that denial of homeopathy condemns one to eternal torment? ROTFLMAO. What a maroon you are!


Dave

 

[Oleron]

My guess is that, in these studies of Olaf's, all we're seeing is that water that has been 'mucked about with' is chemically slightly different than pure water. At these crazy dilutions, even the effect of pouring water from one vessel to another is enough to seriously contaminate it.

2 questions.

Did they perform these experiments under inert atmosphere?

Did they use inert vessels (NOT glass)?

If the answer is no to either of these questions then I would doubt the results.

Am I too harsh? In normal circumstances, yes I am being too extreme. However, trying to measure physical effects of super-dilutions is not normal circumstances. It requires experimental rigour far beyond normal procedures.

 

[Olaf/QII]

My guess is that, in these studies of Olaf's, all we're seeing is that water that has been 'mucked about with' is chemically slightly different than pure water. At these crazy dilutions, even the effect of pouring water from one vessel to another is enough to seriously contaminate it.

2 questions.

Did they perform these experiments under inert atmosphere?

Did they use inert vessels (NOT glass)?

If the answer is no to either of these questions then I would doubt the results.

Am I too harsh? In normal circumstances, yes I am being too extreme. However, trying to measure physical effects of super-dilutions is not normal circumstances. It requires experimental rigour far beyond normal procedures.

with the histamine studies the controls were prepared in an identical manner as the treatments (diluted histamine).

the controls were diluted and vortexed just the same.

the results are due to the fact that the solution is altered in some way through the process of succusion and dilution.

polar solutions do have a memory.

 

[Capsid]

My guess is that, in these studies of Olaf's, all we're seeing is that water that has been 'mucked about with' is chemically slightly different than pure water. At these crazy dilutions, even the effect of pouring water from one vessel to another is enough to seriously contaminate it.

2 questions.

Did they perform these experiments under inert atmosphere?

Did they use inert vessels (NOT glass)?

If the answer is no to either of these questions then I would doubt the results.

Am I too harsh? In normal circumstances, yes I am being too extreme. However, trying to measure physical effects of super-dilutions is not normal circumstances. It requires experimental rigour far beyond normal procedures.

I agree with the mucked about theory. The study showed an immediate effect at all dilutions, no dose response curve. There was no test to control for the effect of adding any chemical to the water, ie it may not necessarily be histamine specific but a general effect.

 

[Zep]

I would suggest that if the testing was done in ordinary air that the dissolved gases in the solvent would be more likely to have an effect than any homeopathic solutes.

Then again, knowing the [lack of] rigor that passes for science in homeopathic circles, they all probably had a good breathe on it as they made up their potions.

[edit for 2nd para]

 

[Olaf/QII]

I agree with the mucked about theory. The study showed an immediate effect at all dilutions, no dose response curve. There was no test to control for the effect of adding any chemical to the water, ie it may not necessarily be histamine specific but a general effect.

.

Are the pseudo-skeptics making things up again???? from page 181 of the study...."histidine tested in parallel with histamine showed NO activity on this model."


the objection about the "no dose response curve" has already been addressed by me. it was also addressed in the paper at the top of page 185.


PSEUDO-SKEPTICS-----

TRY TO BE A LITTLE MORE HONEST.




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