Holocaust deniers, explain this.

[dtugg]

I see no reason to be civil towards neo nazi scum.

 

[kageki]

Even though I am sort of intrigued by the idea that the embellishment of the Holocaust could be a bit unethical, I'm not sure I don't agree that the gas chambers didn't happen.

I've personally spoken to Holocaust survivor Eva Kor and her doctor in the camp has as a German doctor, Nazi etc. admitted that these "myths" are true.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489707/

Is that hearsay part of the documentary or something that was told to you?

Does Eva speak German? Were they actually able to communicate to each other? If so in what language? Is the doctor Mengele himself?

 

[kageki]

It is a very simple issue,that is why I deal with it in a simple way.Hitler and his merry men didn their best to exterminate every Jew in Europe.That is a fact.I see no need for hi-falutin' arguments.Most neo nazis are as thick as two short planks anyway,so what would be the point?

They killed a lot of people. If I'm not mistaken more Soviets were killed then Jews.

Anyways the materials in the OP doesn't indicate it was a Jew thing.

 

[dafydd]

They killed a lot of people. If I'm not mistaken more Soviets were killed then Jews.

Anyways the materials in the OP doesn't indicate it was a Jew thing.

The OP does not reflect reality,it was a "Jew thing".Gays,handicapped people and other minority groups too,but mostly Jews.

 

[dafydd]

Is that hearsay part of the documentary or something that was told to you?

Does Eva speak German? Were they actually able to communicate to each other? If so in what language? Is the doctor Mengele himself?

Why was she in the camp in the first place? You just don't get it,do you?

 

[truethat]

Is that hearsay part of the documentary or something that was told to you?

Does Eva speak German? Were they actually able to communicate to each other? If so in what language? Is the doctor Mengele himself?

It was hearsay as it was told to me by Eva Kor from her own mouth on the phone.

I don't know if Eva speaks German I would assume so but I don't know.

The reason they communicated with each other is that Eva was one of Mengele's twins. So she and her sister were experimented upon. She told me that as a child her greatest fear was dying during the experiment because she knew that if that happened they would immediately kill her twin sister and autopsy the bodies for scientific purposes.

The doctor was not doctor Mengele himself. She contacted him through someone who found him (Not sure of his name too tired to wiki) because her sister died many years later and it made her curious about her own health so she decided to try to find out the experiments that were done.

The doctor agreed to write a public disposition stating his crimes and to admit that he had seen the gas chambers and they were indeed used in the camps.

One of the reasons Eva forgave him is that she was so greatful to have a German Nazi doctor of his own free will publically state this so that they could combat the deniers.

That is how she started in forgiveness.

 

[truethat]

It is a very simple issue,that is why I deal with it in a simple way.Hitler and his merry men didn their best to exterminate every Jew in Europe.That is a fact.I see no need for hi-falutin' arguments.Most neo nazis are as thick as two short planks anyway,so what would be the point?

But your argument is not simple and your insults are dangerous as they only serve to make you look like you can't hold a real discussion about the topic without resorting to name callling.

The point that I think fuels the deniers is the way in which no one is allowed to question or discuss the Holocaust with any sort of skepticism. Since we are on a skeptic's board it's odd. It is not necessarily "cynicism" to question things about the Holocaust. Urban Legends arise in many areas and false stories and conspiracy theories thrive in times of disaster. Look at 911. It has been turned into all sorts of stories.

The only way to decide what is real and what is propaganda is to have a fair conversation even if you don't agree with the other person.

If you are unwilling to do that then why are you posting on a skeptics forum?

 

[kageki]

The OP does not reflect reality,it was a "Jew thing".Gays,handicapped people and other minority groups too,but mostly Jews.

Material provided by the US military does not reflect reality? What does it reflect it then?

Oh I see "other minority groups". The materials were more specific then that in particular the documentary. Interestingly the documentary only mentioned Jews once among the numerous other people.

 

[truethat]

kageki

I'm a bit confused about your point.

It seems you are annoyed that the "Holocaust" is presented as a "Jewish Tragedy" when many other ethnic groups were also targeted.

But then you also seem to be trying to deny the nature of Hitler's Eugenics. His goal was to remove the "weeds" of society.

He believed (and for those of you who are Margaret Sanger fans, she is one of the first people in the movement and abortion clinics were first set up in the US in minority neighborhoods as a form of human culling)

Anyway he was trying to be pretty scientific about it, and kill off all of the dregs of society. Or dregs as he perceived them to be. His goal was to have a master race. So his intention was definitely mass extermination of many.

What is it that you have a particular problem with? Is it that it was presented as a "Jewish Tragedy" or that you don't believe in the extermination effort.

Also are you familiar with the Eugenics movement in the US? I'm just curious.

 

[kageki]

It was hearsay as it was told to me by Eva Kor from her own mouth on the phone.

I don't know if Eva speaks German I would assume so but I don't know.

The reason they communicated with each other is that Eva was one of Mengele's twins. So she and her sister were experimented upon. She told me that as a child her greatest fear was dying during the experiment because she knew that if that happened they would immediately kill her twin sister and autopsy the bodies for scientific purposes.

The doctor was not doctor Mengele himself. She contacted him through someone who found him (Not sure of his name too tired to wiki) because her sister died many years later and it made her curious about her own health so she decided to try to find out the experiments that were done.

The doctor agreed to write a public disposition stating his crimes and to admit that he had seen the gas chambers and they were indeed used in the camps.

One of the reasons Eva forgave him is that she was so greatful to have a German Nazi doctor of his own free will publically state this so that they could combat the deniers.

That is how she started in forgiveness.

Who is this doctor and where is this public disposition?

Is it correct that Eva is Hungarian and as you explain the doctor is German? Isn't there a possible issue of a language barrier?

 

[truethat]

LOL Dude you act like he wrote it on the back of his Dunkin Donuts receipt. It was a big deal. Let me see if I can find more information.

We have now a declaration he signed in 1995, presumably at a time his mind was not yet too much threatened by senility. Here is the affidavit he gave to a to Mrs Eva Mozes Kor in January 1995 in Auschwitz:

I, Dr. Hans Münch hereby attest that, as an SS physician on duty in Auschwitz in 1944, I witnessed the selection process of those who were to live and those who were to die. Other SS physicians on duty in the camps made selections at the platform where the transports arrived. They also made selections in the barracks. I was exempt from performing selections because I had refused to do so.

I further attest that I saw thousands of people gassed here at Auschwitz. Children, old people, the sick and those unable to work were sent to the gas chambers. These were innocent human beings: Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Hitler's political opponents -- anyone who did not fit Hitler's idea of a pure Aryan race.

I am signing this paper of my own free will to help document the cruel intolerance of my fellow SS.

I, a former SS physician, witnessed the dropping of Zyklon B into simulated exhaust vents from outside the gas chamber. Zyklon B began to work as soon as it was released from the canisters. The effects of the gas were observed through a peephole by an assigned doctor or the SS officer on duty. After three to five minutes, death could be certified, and the doors were opened as a sign that the corpses were cleared to be burned. This is the nightmare I continue to live with fifty years later.

I am so sorry that in some way I was part of it. Under the prevailing circumstances I did the best I could to save as many lives as possible. Joining the SS was a mistake. I was young. I was an opportunist. And once I joined, there was no way out.

Dr. Hans Münch
January 27, 1995, Auschwitz

I took this version off a Holocaust denier site, so you have the "debunking" right there. If I didn't personally know the people involved in the case I might be swayed as well.

I don't know any German in his right mind who would lie about being a Nazi, but then again that's their point isn't it?

http://www.historiography-project.com/misc/19981024munch.html

 

[Harpo]

Evasion noted.

Answer the question, why were those people confined to KZ's?

Actually why were they? And whom?

So are you going to actually answer the question or just evade it again?

Why (for what purpose) were millions of people (whether Jewish, Gypsy, Homosexual, Jehovahs Witness, Political Opponents et al) sent to KZ's?

 

[kageki]

kageki

I'm a bit confused about your point.

It seems you are annoyed that the "Holocaust" is presented as a "Jewish Tragedy" when many other ethnic groups were also targeted.

But then you also seem to be trying to deny the nature of Hitler's Eugenics. His goal was to remove the "weeds" of society.

He believed (and for those of you who are Margaret Sanger fans, she is one of the first people in the movement and abortion clinics were first set up in the US in minority neighborhoods as a form of human culling)

Anyway he was trying to be pretty scientific about it, and kill off all of the dregs of society. Or dregs as he perceived them to be. His goal was to have a master race. So his intention was definitely mass extermination of many.

What is it that you have a particular problem with? Is it that it was presented as a "Jewish Tragedy" or that you don't believe in the extermination effort.

Also are you familiar with the Eugenics movement in the US? I'm just curious.

I do wonder about the Holocaust being a Jewish thing and also about the gas chambers, which make up core of the Holocaust and I don't believe the materials in the OP makes a case for that.

 

[dafydd]

But your argument is not simple and your insults are dangerous as they only serve to make you look like you can't hold a real discussion about the topic without resorting to name callling.

The point that I think fuels the deniers is the way in which no one is allowed to question or discuss the Holocaust with any sort of skepticism. Since we are on a skeptic's board it's odd. It is not necessarily "cynicism" to question things about the Holocaust. Urban Legends arise in many areas and false stories and conspiracy theories thrive in times of disaster. Look at 911. It has been turned into all sorts of stories.

The only way to decide what is real and what is propaganda is to have a fair conversation even if you don't agree with the other person.

If you are unwilling to do that then why are you posting on a skeptics forum?

There is no room to be skeptical about the Holocaust.It is our duty to make sure that it does not happen again.You cannot discuss anything with Jew-hating,neo-nazi scum.911 has been turned into all sorts of stories,but intelligent human beings know what happened.Mel Brooks was once asked why he made fun of Nazis so much in his movies and he said something like "So the world will not forget what those bastards did." Do you have any doubts about the Holocaust? If you do,and you air them here then you are only giving succour to these racist lunatics.

 

[truethat]

There is no room to be skeptical about the Holocaust.It is our duty to make sure that it does not happen again.You cannot discuss anything with Jew-hating,neo-nazi scum.911 has been turned into all sorts of stories,but intelligent human beings know what happened.Mel Brooks was once asked why he made fun of Nazis so much in his movies and he said something like "So the world will not forget what those bastards did." Do you have any doubts about the Holocaust? If you do,and you air them here then you are only giving succour to these racist lunatics.

That's your problem though. Of course there is room to be skeptical. Skeptical means thinking and discussing things based on facts. Your emotional rant is no different than a fundy flipping out because you question their god.

If someone says that Jewish soap was made of the bodies of the Jews, of course we should question something like that. It's an urban legend.

To decide that something is taboo is dangerous. Everything should be open for discussion.

 

[dafydd]

I do wonder about the Holocaust being a Jewish thing and also about the gas chambers, which make up core of the Holocaust and I don't believe the materials in the OP makes a case for that.

Hitler was hell bent on wiping Jews off the face of the earth.You can stick your head in the sand about the gas chambers but that will not make them go away.

"Wonder on,'till truth makes all things plain."-Shakespeare.

 

[dafydd]

That's your problem though. Of course there is room to be skeptical. Skeptical means thinking and discussing things based on facts. Your emotional rant is no different than a fundy flipping out because you question their god.

If someone says that Jewish soap was made of the bodies of the Jews, of course we should question something like that. It's an urban legend.

To decide that something is taboo is dangerous. Everything should be open for discussion.

Wtf has soap got to do with it? The Holocaust happened,end of story.

 

[dafydd]

That's your problem though. Of course there is room to be skeptical. Skeptical means thinking and discussing things based on facts. Your emotional rant is no different than a fundy flipping out because you question their god.

If someone says that Jewish soap was made of the bodies of the Jews, of course we should question something like that. It's an urban legend.

To decide that something is taboo is dangerous. Everything should be open for discussion.

So the killing of six million innocent people does not make you emotional?

 

[truethat]

I do wonder about the Holocaust being a Jewish thing and also about the gas chambers, which make up core of the Holocaust and I don't believe the materials in the OP makes a case for that.

I agree with you about the Jewish thing however I would think of it this way.

Eugenics (which I hope you have researched by now) is the basis of Hitler's movement. The difference though, and I suppose why the Jews were singled out, is that Eugenics tends to target the "weaker" less superior races. However Jews were the TOP race a lot of times along the way throughout history. They were (and still are) generally more educated, richer and more sucessful than other counterparts. (Stereotype I know) but the point is that if you are TRULY going after getting rid of the weakest link, why in the world would you target the Jews? Therefor there was definitely anti semitism at work.


The Gas Chambers (while atrocious) are the most practical way of exterminating large amounts of people. You've got tons of sick people, pack em in, toss in some pellets (Which they had anyway) and boom a little while later you are done. I think denying the "horror" of the gas chamber makes no sense to me from a perfectly practical point of view. Bullets are expensive. Death Marches are draining on the soldiers as well. Beating people up is draining. Of course they would use the gas chamber. It's the simplest solution.


So why would you have such an issue with the idea of it?

 

[truethat]

So the killing of six million innocent people does not make you emotional?

Actually no. I tend not to be a hugely emotional woman. But at the same time if you are examining the facts of a situation what makes me disgusted is that people feel the need to "embellish" the Holocaust, as if it's not bad enough? What kind of sick person feels that they need to make it worse?


Also what makes me emotional a tad bit is you acting as if "SIX" million innocent people were killed, thereby ignoring all non Jews that were killed. That's pretty vulgar in my mind to ignore 5 million other people who were also killed.

It's why I do wish to question and understand why this is presented as a Jewish tragedy to the expense of the others who were executed and violated in the same way.