• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Holocaust deniers, explain this.

Status
Not open for further replies.
truethat said:
That's your problem though. Of course there is room to be skeptical. Skeptical means thinking and discussing things based on facts. Your emotional rant is no different than a fundy flipping out because you question their god.

If someone says that Jewish soap was made of the bodies of the Jews, of course we should question something like that. It's an urban legend.

To decide that something is taboo is dangerous. Everything should be open for discussion.
Click to expand...

I agree with your point about taboos. But why discuss the Holocaust? There is no room for doubts,the facts are plain to see.
 
Well I think it is important to discuss it because I would consider someone like you a Holocaust denier. That is, you deny the voices of the victims that were NON JEWS> Like you just did now, saying SIX million people were killed.

When this is presented as a Jewish Tragedy it corrupts the reality of what happened. This did not just happen to the Jews. It was a eugenics movement more so than an anti semitic movement. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth to have the silent victims usurped by politically correct ********.

I think it is, therefor, important to discuss.
 
truethat said:
Actually no. I tend not to be a hugely emotional woman. But at the same time if you are examining the facts of a situation what makes me disgusted is that people feel the need to "embellish" the Holocaust, as if it's not bad enough? What kind of sick person feels that they need to make it worse?


Also what makes me emotional a tad bit is you acting as if "SIX" million innocent people were killed, thereby ignoring all non Jews that were killed. That's pretty vulgar in my mind to ignore 5 million other people who were also killed.

It's why I do wish to question and understand why this is presented as a Jewish tragedy to the expense of the others who were executed and violated in the same way.
Click to expand...

<Sigh> Go and read some history books.
Here are some quotes from Hitler.He never railed against gays or other minority groups in his speeches.

"If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will be my first and most important job. As soon as I have power, I shall have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink. They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible. As soon as they are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!" (quoted in John Toland, Adolf Hitler. London: Book Club Associates, 1977, p.116)
"And one more thing I would like now to state on this day memorable perhaps not only for us Germans. I have often been a prophet in my life and was generally laughed at. During my struggle for power, the Jews primarily received with laughter my prophecies that I would someday assume the leadership of the state and thereby of the entire nation and then, among many other things, achieve a solution of the Jewish problem. I suppose that meanwhile the laughter of Jewry in Germany that resounded then is probably already choking in their throats. [applause; Hitler coughs]

Today I want to be a prophet again. If international finance Jewry within Europe and abroad should succeed once more in plunging the peoples into a world war, then the consequence will be not the Bolshevization of the world and therewith a victory of Jewry, but on the contrary, the destruction of the Jewish race in Europe. [applause]"

"It is clear to us that the war can only end with the destruction of the Germanic peoples or the disappearance of Jewry from Europe. On September 3, I already announced in the German Reichstag (and I am careful not to make rash prophecies) that this war would not develop as the Jews imagine, namely that the European-Aryan peoples will be destroyed. Instead, the result of this war will be the destruction of Jewry. For the first time others will not bleed alone. For the first time the genuine old Jewish law will be applied: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth!" And the more this war spreads, the more anti-Semitism will spread. This may be said to world Jewry. Anti-Semitism will be nourished in every prison camp, in every family which must be informed why they must sacrifice to the bitter end. And the hour will come when the most evil world enemy of all times will have played out its role for perhaps a thousand years at least."


"And finally we were also the first to point the people on any large scale to a danger which insinuated itself into our midst - a danger which millions failed to realize and which will nonetheless lead us all into ruin - the Jewish danger. And today people are saying yet again that we were 'agitators.'

"In the course of my life I have very often been a prophet, and have usually been ridiculed for it. During the time of my struggle for power it was in the first instance only the Jewish race that received my prophecies with laughter when I said that I would one day take over the leadership of the State, and with it that of the whole nation, and that I would then among other things settle the Jewish problem. Their laughter was uproarious, but I think that for some time now they have been laughing on the other side of their face. Today I will once more be a prophet: if the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the Bolshevizing of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!"

I could go on.The killing of other minority groups,though unforgivable and despicable,was a side issue for Hitler,he was gunning for the Jews.
 
Last edited:
of course you could go on. Did you actually google that? Tisk tisk.

That doesn't erase the 5 million other people who were killed. I mean basically your argument seems to be that in the 1950s in the US ONLY Blacks suffered at the hands of whites. That Hispanics and Gays weren't targeted because the movements back then didn't deal with them.

It is important for progress for all victims to be remembered. How utterly trite of you to act as if a dead Gypsie is worthless in their loss cause Hitler didn't make a speech about them.
 
That's like the Americans wanting to stamp out Communists.

So getting back to the OP, how do you explain them other then that Nazis committed atrocities?
 
Sigh

Himmler's Speech to the SS Group Commanders, February 18, 1937
In a particularly convoluted piece of Nazi logic, Heinrich Himmler put homosexuality under the ideology of racial theory and racial purity. Drawing upon the fact that Germany had lost over 2 million men during WWI, thus creating a serious imbalance in the reproductive sex ratio, he added an estimated 2 million homosexuals who had doubled the imbalance. Never mind the fact that they were not going to procreate anyway, Himmler proceeded to use those facts as a rationale for bringing homosexuality under Nazi racial policy. Portions of that speech follow:
If you further take into account the facts that I have not yet mentioned, namely that with a static number of women, we have two million men too few on account of those who fell in the war, then you can well imagine how this imbalance of two million homosexuals and two million war dead, or in other words a lack of about four million men capable of having sex, has upset the sexual balance sheet of Germany, and will result in a catastrophe.
I would like to develop a couple of ideas for you on the question of homosexuality. There are those homosexuals who take the view: what I do is my business, a purely private matter. However, all things which take place in the sexual sphere are not the private affair of the individual, but signify the life and death of the nation, signify world power...

After likening the homosexual who was killed and thrown into a peat bog to the weeding process in a garden, Himmler continued his tirade:


...In the SS, today, we still have about one case of homosexuality a month. In a whole year, about eight to ten cases occur in the entire SS. I have now decided upon the following: in each case, these people will naturally be publicly degraded, expelled, and handed over to the courts. Following completion of the punishment imposed by the court, they will be sent, by my order, to a concentration camp, and they will be shot in the concentration camp, while attempting to escape. I will make that known by order to the unit to which the person so infected belonged. Thereby, I hope finally to have done with persons of this type in the SS, and the increasingly healthy blood which we are cultivating for Germany, will be kept pure.
Over the next two years, an intricate network of informants was developed. School children were encouraged to inform on teachers they suspected of homosexuality, employers on employees and vice versa. Homosexuals who were arrested were used to create lists of homosexuals or suspected homosexuals. The clear intention was to identify every homosexual in Germany and move them to concentration camps.

Himmler clearly recognized that these strategies would not solve the sexual imbalance problem in Germany. Instead, the purpose of the plan was, in Himmler's own words, to "identify" the homosexual and remove them from society. He still needed a rationale for exterminating them. As in the case with the Gypsies , Himmler fell back on "medical science" as the solution to the homosexuality problem.


The Extermination of Homosexuals in the Death Camps
Precise figures on the number of homosexuals exterminated in Nazi Death camps have never been established. Estimates range from 10,000 to 15,000. It does not appear that the Nazis ever set it as their goal to completely eradicate all homosexuals. Rather, it seems, the official policy was to either re-educate those homosexuals who were "behaviorally" and only occasionally homosexual and to block those who were "incurable" homosexuals through castration, extreme intimidation, or both. For a fascinating empirical sociological examination of this idea, the reader is referred to the work of Reudiger Lautmann. Nor does it appear that their efforts extended beyond Germany itself to the occupied territories.

However, the numerous testimonies by homosexuals who survived the camp experience suggest that the SS had a much less tolerant view. Those who wore the pink triangle were brutally treated by camp guards and other categories of inmates, particularly those who wore the green (criminals), red (political criminals) and black (asocials) triangles. The following testimony by survivor, Heinz Heger, provides a dramatic illustration:

Extracted from: Heger, Heinz. The men with the Pink Triangles. Alyson Publications 1980:34-37.


"... Our block was only occupied by homosexuals, with about 250 men in each wing. We could only sleep in our night-shirts, and had to keep our hands outside the blankets, for: 'You queer arse-holes aren't going to start wanking here!'
"The windows of had a centimetre of ice on them. Anyone found with his underclothes on in bed, or his hand under his blanket -- there were checks almost every night -- was taken outside and had serveral bowls of water poured over him before being left standing outside for a good hour. Only a few people survived this treatment. The least result was bronchitis, and it was rare for any gay person taken into the sick-bay to come out alive. We who wore the pink triangle were prioritised for medical experiments, and these generally ended in death. For my part, therefore, I took every care I could not to offend against the regulations.

"Our block senior and his aides were 'greens', i.e. criminals. They look it, and behaved like it too. Brutal and merciless towards us 'queers', and concerned only with their own privelege and advantage, they were as much feared by us as the SS.

"In Sachsenhausen, at least, a homosexual was never permitted to have any position of responsibility. Nor could we even speak with prisoners from other blocks, with a different coloured badge; we were told we might try to seduce them. And yet, homosexuality was much more rife in the other blocks, where there were no men with the pink triangle, than it was in our own.

"We were also forbidden to approach nearer than five metres of the other blocks. Anyone caught doing so was whipped on the 'horse', and was sure of at least 15 to 20 strokes. Other categories of prisoner were similarly forbidden to enter our block. We were to remain isolated as the damnedest of the damned, the camp's '****** queers', condemned to liquidation and helpless prey to all torments inflicted by the SS and Capos.

"The day regularly began at 6 a.m., or 5 a.m. in the summer, and in just half an hour we had to be washed, dressed and have our beds made up in military style. If you still had time, you could have breakfast, which meant a hurried slurping down the thin flour soup, hot or luke-warm, and eating your piece of bread. Then we had to form up in eights on the parade-ground for morning roll-call. Work followed, in winter from 7.30 a.m. to 5 p.m., and in summer from 7 a.m. to 8 p.m., with a half hour break at the workplace. After work, straight back to camp and immediate parade for evening roll-call.

"Each block marched in formation to the parade-ground and had its permanent position there. The morning parade was not so drawn-out as the much feared evening roll-call, for only the block numbers were counted, which took about an hour, and then the command was given for work detachments to form up.

"At every parade, those that had just died had to be present, i.e. they were laid out at the end of each block and counted as well. Only after the parade, and having been tallied by the report officer, were they taken to the mortuary and subsequently burned.

"Disabled prisoners also had to be present for parade. Time and again we helped or carried comrades to the parade-ground who had been beaten by the SS only hours before. Or we had to bring along fellow-prisoners who were half-frozen or feverish, so as to have our numbers complete. Any man missing from our block meant many blows and thus many deaths.

"We new arrivals were now assigned to our work, which was to keep the area around the block clean. That, at least, was what we were told by the NCO in charge. In reality, the purpose was to break the very last spark of independent spirit that might possibly remain in the new prisoners, by senseless yet heavy labour, and to destroy the little human dignity that we still retained. This work continued til a new batch of pink-triangle prisoners were delivered to our block and we were replaced.

"Our work, then, was as follows. In the morning we had to cart the snow outside our block from the left side of the road to the right side. In the afternoon we had to cart the same snow back from the right side to the left. We didn't have barrows and shovels to perform this work either, that would have been far too simple for us 'queers'. No, our SS masters had thought up something much better.

"We had to put our coats with the buttoned side backward, and take the snow away in the container this provided We had to shovel up the snow with our hands -- our bare hands, as we didn't have any gloves. We worked in teams of two. Twenty turns at shovelling up the snow with our hands, then twenty turns at carrying it away. And so, right throught the evening, and all at the double!

"This mental and bodily torment lasted six days, until at last new pink-triangle prisoners were delivered to our block and took over for us. Our hands were cracked all over and half frozen off, and we had become dumb and indifferent slaves of the SS.

"I learned from prisoners who had already been in our block a good while that in summer similar work was done with earth and sand. "Above the gate of the prison camp, however, the 'meaningful' Nazi slogan was written in big capitals: 'Freedom through work!'"

Furthermore, homosexuals were at another important disadvantage. They lacked the group support within the camp to maintain morale. As Lautmann observes:


The prisoners with the pink triangle had certainly shown "precamp" qualities of survival, but they did not get a chance to apply these qualities in the camp. Because their subculture and organizations had been wantonly destroyed, no group solidarity developed inside the camp...Since every contact outside was regarded as suspicious, homosexuals did not even dare speak to one another inside (as numerous survivors have reported in interviews).
Death rates for homosexuals were much higher, perhaps three to four times higher, than for other non-Jewish categories of prisoners. While their overall numbers are small, their fate in the camps more nearly approximates that of Jews than any of the other categories, except, perhaps, Gypsies. And, homosexuals did not survive for very long. Of those who were exterminated, most were exterminated within the first few months of the camp experience.
Click to expand...
 
truethat said:
of course you could go on. Did you actually google that? Tisk tisk.

That doesn't erase the 5 million other people who were killed. I mean basically your argument seems to be that in the 1950s in the US ONLY Blacks suffered at the hands of whites. That Hispanics and Gays weren't targeted because the movements back then didn't deal with them.

It is important for progress for all victims to be remembered. How utterly trite of you to act as if a dead Gypsie is worthless in their loss cause Hitler didn't make a speech about them.
Click to expand...

I did not say that Gypsies were worthless,please do not put words into my mouth.Why do you think that only one million Jews were killed? I read those speeches a long time before the internet was invented.My uncle saw Belsen,and he never forgot it.Please stop with the sophistry.
 
truethat said:
I agree with you about the Jewish thing however I would think of it this way.

Eugenics (which I hope you have researched by now) is the basis of Hitler's movement. The difference though, and I suppose why the Jews were singled out, is that Eugenics tends to target the "weaker" less superior races. However Jews were the TOP race a lot of times along the way throughout history. They were (and still are) generally more educated, richer and more sucessful than other counterparts. (Stereotype I know) but the point is that if you are TRULY going after getting rid of the weakest link, why in the world would you target the Jews? Therefor there was definitely anti semitism at work.


The Gas Chambers (while atrocious) are the most practical way of exterminating large amounts of people. You've got tons of sick people, pack em in, toss in some pellets (Which they had anyway) and boom a little while later you are done. I think denying the "horror" of the gas chamber makes no sense to me from a perfectly practical point of view. Bullets are expensive. Death Marches are draining on the soldiers as well. Beating people up is draining. Of course they would use the gas chamber. It's the simplest solution.


So why would you have such an issue with the idea of it?
Click to expand...

Kageki,

I worried that you missed this. Please discuss it, because I seriously don't understand why you would "doubt" using the gas chamber. It would be the most practical solution of course, no matter how horrid, so common sense would tell you that it would be used.

What is the difference to you between a gas chamber and a firing squad, a death march etc. What's the difference.

dafydd, your emotional trump card of your uncle is lame. In a conversation you don't get to opt out of the facts by playing emotion.

My grandmother's entire family was wiped out. Do I get to "one up you?"

ALL victims matter. Not just the Jews. A person's suffering was not less because they were not Jewish. This attitude puzzles me and in my opinion FEEDs the Holocaust deniers as well.

You both are deniers, they just simpy deny one more group of victims than you do. I didn't say ONLY one million Jews died. I said FIVE MILLION OTHER VICTIMS DIED which you seem to ignore with ease.


The number is in the millions, not only Jews, but everyone who Hitler didn't like or thought was different were slaughtered.

•Jews- 5.9 million
•Soviet POW's- 3.3 million
•Non-Jewish Poles- 1.8-2 million
•Romanis ('gypsies')- 220,000- 270,000 (but even the higher figure may be too low)
•Disabled- 200,000 - 250,000
•Homosexuals- 5,000 - 15,000
•Jehovahs Witnesses- 2,500 - 5,000
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
truethat said:
Kageki,

I worried that you missed this. Please discuss it, because I seriously don't understand why you would "doubt" using the gas chamber. It would be the most practical solution of course, no matter how horrid, so common sense would tell you that it would be used.

What is the difference to you between a gas chamber and a firing squad, a death march etc. What's the difference.

dafydd, your emotional trump card of your uncle is lame. In a conversation you don't get to opt out of the facts by playing emotion.

My grandmother's entire family was wiped out. Do I get to "one up you?"

ALL victims matter. Not just the Jews. A person's suffering was not less because they were not Jewish. This attitude puzzles me and in my opinion FEEDs the Holocaust deniers as well.

You both are deniers, they just simpy deny one more group of victims than you do. I didn't say ONLY one million Jews died. I said FIVE MILLION OTHER VICTIMS DIED which you seem to ignore with ease.
Click to expand...

Goodbye.
 
what a surprise! You not only ignore victims of the Holocaust but facts as well. So I hope that others will see the truth in the OP and your commentary throughout. It is not about fighting deniers but rather about making sure only one group of victims get their story to count in history.

well done!
 
Last edited:
truethat said:
I agree with you about the Jewish thing however I would think of it this way.

Eugenics (which I hope you have researched by now) is the basis of Hitler's movement. The difference though, and I suppose why the Jews were singled out, is that Eugenics tends to target the "weaker" less superior races. However Jews were the TOP race a lot of times along the way throughout history. They were (and still are) generally more educated, richer and more sucessful than other counterparts. (Stereotype I know) but the point is that if you are TRULY going after getting rid of the weakest link, why in the world would you target the Jews? Therefor there was definitely anti semitism at work.


The Gas Chambers (while atrocious) are the most practical way of exterminating large amounts of people. You've got tons of sick people, pack em in, toss in some pellets (Which they had anyway) and boom a little while later you are done. I think denying the "horror" of the gas chamber makes no sense to me from a perfectly practical point of view. Bullets are expensive. Death Marches are draining on the soldiers as well. Beating people up is draining. Of course they would use the gas chamber. It's the simplest solution.


So why would you have such an issue with the idea of it?
Click to expand...

Hitler explained rather clearly regarding Jews. They were essentially viewed as enemies of the state. What exactly does anti-semitism mean anyways? During tsarist Russia one of the reasons was on religious grounds for instance. Later on the issue of loyalty was raised. What happened in Nazi Germany was very similar to what was going on around the time of the Bolshevik revolution in Russia.

Practical is a matter of opinion. Heck you can simply bury people alive. I don't find such a thought process to be compelling at all.

In any regards, the materials in the OP don't prove anything more then that atrocities occurred.
 
I watched the some of the video, and I find it funny that an argument was that these deaths were typhus. I'm not too familiar with the disease, true, but I'm relatively sure that it doesn't cause gunshot wounds...
 
Gawdzilla said:
Again with the "La, la, la, la, la." Don't run away, face the issue. Neo-nazis need to come to terms with what they're promoting.
Click to expand...

Can you point to me where in the materials that says Jews and the Holocaust?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom