Hillary Clinton is Done: part 2

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sunmaster14 said:
Ah, ok. I see that CA has a wide-open primary. Well, I'd be interested to learn about his reasons for doing so. Perhaps he just prefers Bernie to Hillary if the Republicans go down in flames (which is entirely possible, even likely). It doesn't mean that he is voting strategically to increase the Republican chances of victory.
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Well, Ziggurat has argued the general case that under our system of goverment, bad policy is less harmful than corruption, because bad policy can be moderated and reversed over time, but corruption becomes entrenched and institutionalized.

My own reasoning is along the same lines, but is more specific: I think that Bernie Sanders will be a less corrupt and more responsible executive than Hillary Clinton. I may disagree with him on the best policies for the country, but I trust him more than Hillary to want what's best for the country. And I trust our institutions of government to act as a check and balance on his policy proposals.

There's more, but I'm waiting to see how the GOP primaries shake out, and where Trump ends up, before my thinking solidifies beyond the points above.
 
theprestige said:
Well, Ziggurat has argued the general case that under our system of goverment, bad policy is less harmful than corruption, because bad policy can be moderated and reversed over time, but corruption becomes entrenched and institutionalized.

My own reasoning is along the same lines, but is more specific: I think that Bernie Sanders will be a less corrupt and more responsible executive than Hillary Clinton. I may disagree with him on the best policies for the country, but I trust him more than Hillary to want what's best for the country. And I trust our institutions of government to act as a check and balance on his policy proposals.

There's more, but I'm waiting to see how the GOP primaries shake out, and where Trump ends up, before my thinking solidifies beyond the points above.
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I think the VP choices will be more important for me this year than for any election I can remember. I would be very much against Hillary if she chose that idiot Joaquin Castro to be her VP. Or if Bernie did it. I would be much more comfortable with Trump if he chose a reasonable conservative to be his VP (and definitely not Christie, who I think is scarier than Trump in many ways).
 
sunmaster14 said:
I think the VP choices will be more important for me this year than for any election I can remember. I would be very much against Hillary if she chose that idiot Joaquin Castro to be her VP. Or if Bernie did it. I would be much more comfortable with Trump if he chose a reasonable conservative to be his VP (and definitely not Christie, who I think is scarier than Trump in many ways).
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So you could be persuaded to vote for Hillary if she picks the right VP? Do you have anyone in mind?
 
sunmaster14 said:
I think the VP choices will be more important for me this year than for any election I can remember. I would be very much against Hillary if she chose that idiot Joaquin Castro to be her VP. Or if Bernie did it. I would be much more comfortable with Trump if he chose a reasonable conservative to be his VP (and definitely not Christie, who I think is scarier than Trump in many ways).
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What's really scary is almost all of the candidates the US has had since the early 2000s.
 
The strange silence about Hillarymania: Clinton fires up voters more than Bernie does, so why is no one talking about it?
More Clinton supporters are enthusiastic than those backing Sanders, but the media won't tell you that...

Gallup released a poll showing that actually, her supporters love her more than any other candidate besides Donald Trump, a man who literally expects everyone around him to act like he’s God’s gift.

And yes, Bernie Sanders supporters were polled, and fell about 10 points behind Clinton supporters in the enthusiasm department. Over half of Clinton supporters — 54% — rated themselves as “extremely enthusiastic” or “very enthusiastic.” Only 44% of Sanders supporters could say the same....

On top of that, most journalists who echo the Sanders enthusiasm narrative spend a lot of time on social media, and if you do that, then it’s safe to say that it looks like Sanders is inspiring a lot of enthusiasm. ...
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This was especially interesting if true:
There are thousands, probably millions of social media messages which are more about using Sanders as a cover to harass women and their allies than as legitimate advocacy for the candidate. Remove the mansplaining, harassment, and gotcha trolling, and the amount of Sanders traffic isn’t quite so awe-inspiring in volume.... But this small percentage of angry men (and a few women) are really loud online and their anti-Clinton vitriol contributes to the false notion that Sanders has the wind at his back....

Saying Clinton’s moxie inspires you invariably attracts derogatory sneers about how you’re a “vagina voter”. Supporting Clinton requires dialing down the enthusiasm, couching it in lots of reassurances that Sanders is a great guy (reassurances Sanders supporters feel no need to offer about Clinton), and striking an apologetic stance for wanting to see a female president. Ideally, you have a daughter you can wield as shield for the female president thing, since it may not be okay to want it for yourself, but you are a little more allowed to want it for your daughter.

There’s a lot of pressure on Clinton supporters to tone down the enthusiasm, but that shouldn’t be confused with an actual lack of enthusiasm for Clinton.
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From a Twitter comment:
Clinton has won around 9 m votes. Trump has won around 7.8 m.

The stories: How Hillary’s blowing it, how Trump changed everything.
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Tony Stark said:
So you could be persuaded to vote for Hillary if she picks the right VP? Do you have anyone in mind?
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Possibly Cory Booker or Jim Webb. The latter one won't be picked, but the former one might. Neither one strikes me as a conventional liberal.
 
sunmaster14 said:
Possibly Cory Booker or Jim Webb. The latter one won't be picked, but the former one might. Neither one strikes me as a conventional liberal.
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Cory Booker sounds like a good pick to me. Only concern I would have is that Chris Christie would pick his replacement in the Senate.
 
A shillary who runs truthout has just tried to censor an article in which John Pilger calls out Killary for her "crimes and lies". Naturally, he wasn't amused and published some thoughts about that.

John Pilger said:
[...] At the root of this episode is an enduring unsayable. This is the need, the compulsion, of many liberals in the United States to embrace a leader from within a system that is demonstrably imperial and violent. Like Obama's "hope", Clinton's gender is no more than a suitable facade.

This is an historical urge. In his 1859 essay On Liberty, to which modern liberals seem to pay unflagging homage, John Stuart Mill described the power of empire. "Despotism is a legitimate mode of government in dealing with barbarians," he wrote, "provided the end be their improvement, and the means justified by actually effecting that end." The "barbarians" were large sections of humanity of whom "implicit obedience" was required.

"It's a nice and convenient myth that liberals are the peacemakers and conservatives the warmongers," wrote the British historian Hywel Williams in 2001, "but the imperialism of the liberal way may be more dangerous because of its open ended nature - its conviction that it represents a superior form of life [while denying its] self righteous fanaticism." [...]
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Ignoring mass murder but but but she's a woman .. all too familiar.
 
Warren is on Colbert right now (taped in NY) and when she said Sanders is fighting blah blah blah the crowd waited. Then when she said Clinton is fighting for the same things, the crowd cheered.

So either there is Clinton momentum in Colbert's Progressive audience or the audience was simply cheering for both of them.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Using the latest WI poll, Nate Silver still sees Clinton winning in WI. That suggests a close race which is just as good for Clinton as a win.

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/election-2016/primary-forecast/wisconsin-democratic/
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With another new poll, Sanders is now projected to win with 49.4% to Clinton's 48.2%. Of course, Sanders needs a 66%58% win to have any hope of staying in.

Still, new polls in NY and Cali still show Clinton with commanding leads there.
 
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Interesting little development, Trump makes ignorant comment that women need to be punished for having an abortion. Sanders in the town hall last night brushed it off as Trump being stupid (I didn't see it). Clinton in a follow up (because the comment was made during her segment on the town hall while Sanders had a chance to respond during his segment) was more outrage and taking such comments seriously.

Sanders demonstrated why despite being women friendly in his voting record, he was not endorsed by Planned Parenthood, Clinton was. It is a big deal. More than half the public polled are pro-choice. Women's right to birth control and abortion are being threatened in multiple states with these clinic closing laws.

Yes Trump has totally taken it back today (naturally), but the difference in the reactions of Sanders and Clinton are telling about why a woman POTUS might be better for women's issues than someone like Sanders.
 
Well, now that Sanders has had a chance to see his faux pas, he's changed to saying it was an outrageous statement by Trump.

Taking his faux pas of dismissing Trump's comment as unimportant back, just like Trump taking his statement back?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Interesting little development, Trump makes ignorant comment that women need to be punished for having an abortion. Sanders in the town hall last night brushed it off as Trump being stupid (I didn't see it). Clinton in a follow up (because the comment was made during her segment on the town hall while Sanders had a chance to respond during his segment) was more outrage and taking such comments seriously.

Sanders demonstrated why despite being women friendly in his voting record, he was not endorsed by Planned Parenthood, Clinton was. It is a big deal. More than half the public polled are pro-choice. Women's right to birth control and abortion are being threatened in multiple states with these clinic closing laws.

Yes Trump has totally taken it back today (naturally), but the difference in the reactions of Sanders and Clinton are telling about why a woman POTUS might be better for women's issues than someone like Sanders.
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Its pretty damn obvious to me that it was Trump being stupid. He could care less about abortion rights. It was a statement meant to ingratiate himself with Cruz supporters and it backfired, disastrously perhaps for him. Nearly half of GOP registered female voters have said they can't see themselves voting for him BEFORE he said that. Of course this just means the door is open for an actual very pro-life, fire and brimstone, theocrat to get the GOP nom.

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/examining-trump-s-problem-female-voters-n544901
 
The_Animus said:
Well if anyone else is like me, your question comes across as disingenuous. There are examples abounds in this forum, and either you don't care to read through the couple Hillary threads to find them, or more likely, you've already read through them and ignored them or disagree with them.
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16.5 said:
You're a Bernie "supporter" and you have no idea why Hillary constantly polls as low as she does for dishonesty?

Yeah, probably just echo chamber stuff.... Bernie "Supporters" for Hillary 2016!
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sunmaster14 said:
You're young(ish), so you probably don't have an appreciation for the depth of her dishonesty. She had already established herself as a reflexive/automatic liar 20 years ago. See here:



Bill Safire was as jaded as they come, but even he was impressed by her, ... um, ... accomplishments. It's a shame that he died before he got to see her full potential.
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See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I ask why she's dishonest and all I get is weird Kafka logic "she's dishonest because people think she's dishonest" nonsense.
 
I think that latest brouhaha is interesting, because you can see both parties as right in their way. Of course what Trump said was just stupid, just shooting off his mouth without thinking, and the sort of thing he can just as brazenly take back and his stupid supporters will shrug it off. But because Trump is, for reasons unfathomable, doing so well, his stupid, unthinking and even trivial remarks are also something one has to take seriously. Bernie's mistake might be simply that he thinks like an intelligent person instead of like a politician. I have to agree a bit with Ginger here, that politically, Hillary did better. It is unfortunate that one must take Trump seriously, but one must.
 
bruto said:
I think that latest brouhaha is interesting, because you can see both parties as right in their way. Of course what Trump said was just stupid, just shooting off his mouth without thinking, and the sort of thing he can just as brazenly take back and his stupid supporters will shrug it off. But because Trump is, for reasons unfathomable, doing so well, his stupid, unthinking and even trivial remarks are also something one has to take seriously. Bernie's mistake might be simply that he thinks like an intelligent person instead of like a politician. I have to agree a bit with Ginger here, that politically, Hillary did better. It is unfortunate that one must take Trump seriously, but one must.
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I see it as two separate issues, yes he says stupid crap all the time. And yes some of the stupid crap matters. This was a case of both and Sanders gaffe was that he ignored the latter.
 
I have to say for some who was supposed to be done a year ago, based on part 1 of the thread, Hillary Clinton is doing remarkably well..
 
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